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What Makes an Elite School?

If the elite schools are supposedly the ones that offer the best education, how do we define that best education?

The best education one can get, IMHO, is one that can start with a freshman with obvious deficits and make him/her a graduate with limitless possibilities.

What do you think?

What makes for an elite school, for the best education?

Do our current systems, public and private, provide the best education possible to the most number of people?

Are the criteria for labeling a school elite in step with what we as a citizenry believe to be elite?

If we don't know the answers to these question, then what the hell is Scalia even talking about?

Some people might mean Elite as in expensive and/or an Ivy League long tradition. That is how most posters here are using it.
But that isn't what is relevant to Scalia's comments or AA policies in general.
In that context, elite is a relative term and simply means schools where the required skills when entering are relatively higher in order to meet the higher requirements to graduate. There really is no black-white (pun not intended but funny) cut-off for what schools are "elite" vs. not. The amount of actual learning is heavily impacted by the general level of expectations and requirements to pass and/or do well in the courses, and thus to graduate and get a respectable GPA. Those standards are determined heavily by the skills and abilities of the students who enter. The higher the entry requirements the higher the grade and graduations requirements can be set and the more learning occurs.
Also, better teachers who can choose their jobs, usually choose schools with students that are both more prepared and more willing to put in the effort (both things highly reflected by H.S. GPA and standardized tests, despite bullshit claims to the contrary.
 
Ya, it kind of should be. It's like how the NHL provides the best opportunities for the best hockey players and the less qualified players remain in the minor leagues. When draft day comes around, it doesn't matter why one player is better than another and if one guy couldn't spend as much time as he wanted on the ice practicing because his mother was working two jobs to pay the bills and couldn't drive him to the rink, that's not the problem of the coaches and managers. They should only care about how well he plays hockey.

When the brightest potential physicists are studying physics, it's in the interest of everyone who cares about physics to have them in classes with similarly bright students so that the course work doesn't need to be slowed down any to let everyone catch up. It's in the same interest to have the best professors teaching them so that their potential is maximized to the fullest amount. That's not to say that there shouldn't be other opportunities available for the next tier of students in other schools, but if you want to be in the elite, it's fair to have you prove your ability to be there before being accepted.

We'll, it's a rare tenured full professor at a major research university who sees an undergrad, except for a work study student cleaning floors. Most of those oh so brilliant researchers don't teach any undergrad courses and few grad classes. They are too important conducting research and bringing the university those grants and that prestige that allow universities to command enormous tuition.

Of course there is the question of whether those brilliant researchers can actually teach. Many cannot and most have no interest in doing so.

So, your kid wants to be a physicist. She gets full scholarships to both Cal Tech and Iowa State. According to you, is it a toss up either way because the education is the same or is there a difference between one and the other?
 
Ya, it kind of should be. It's like how the NHL provides the best opportunities for the best hockey players and the less qualified players remain in the minor leagues. When draft day comes around, it doesn't matter why one player is better than another and if one guy couldn't spend as much time as he wanted on the ice practicing because his mother was working two jobs to pay the bills and couldn't drive him to the rink, that's not the problem of the coaches and managers. They should only care about how well he plays hockey.

When the brightest potential physicists are studying physics, it's in the interest of everyone who cares about physics to have them in classes with similarly bright students so that the course work doesn't need to be slowed down any to let everyone catch up. It's in the same interest to have the best professors teaching them so that their potential is maximized to the fullest amount. That's not to say that there shouldn't be other opportunities available for the next tier of students in other schools, but if you want to be in the elite, it's fair to have you prove your ability to be there before being accepted.

So not only will you not improve your conditions if you are not already the best at what you do, if you have not already had all the advantages, no avenues need be provided for you to improve?

BTW, your sports analogy is a little iffy.

Scouts will go to the ends of the earth to find a good wing and then base their decision on talent and skill. Any kid willing to pick up a stick, put on the skates and put in the time has a shot. Grandpa playing for the Rangers really doesn't enter into it. Whereas with say entering an Ivy League school, Talent and skill count, but you don't really see college recruiters going out into the hinter lands or into the inner city to actively search for mathematicians, and they will accept a substandard student based on whether or not Grandpa endowed a chair.

Why the fixation on Harvard, the Ivies, and other similar institutions? They have a place. Tertiary education in the US offers a lot of different options. State flagship universities, in my opinion, should take on the role you seem to be advocating. Or the many tiers of schools below them.
 
Ya, it kind of should be. It's like how the NHL provides the best opportunities for the best hockey players and the less qualified players remain in the minor leagues. When draft day comes around, it doesn't matter why one player is better than another and if one guy couldn't spend as much time as he wanted on the ice practicing because his mother was working two jobs to pay the bills and couldn't drive him to the rink, that's not the problem of the coaches and managers. They should only care about how well he plays hockey.

When the brightest potential physicists are studying physics, it's in the interest of everyone who cares about physics to have them in classes with similarly bright students so that the course work doesn't need to be slowed down any to let everyone catch up. It's in the same interest to have the best professors teaching them so that their potential is maximized to the fullest amount. That's not to say that there shouldn't be other opportunities available for the next tier of students in other schools, but if you want to be in the elite, it's fair to have you prove your ability to be there before being accepted.

We'll, it's a rare tenured full professor at a major research university who sees an undergrad, except for a work study student cleaning floors. Most of those oh so brilliant researchers don't teach any undergrad courses and few grad classes. They are too important conducting research and bringing the university those grants and that prestige that allow universities to command enormous tuition.

Of course there is the question of whether those brilliant researchers can actually teach. Many cannot and most have no interest in doing so.

This is untrue, outside of the very top level Ivy league schools. At most "research Universities" the tenured profs teach almost all the graduate courses and most of the upper-division undergrad courses beyond the massive introductory courses taken by Freshmen and Sophmores.

In addition, the % of courses taught by part-time faculty is twice as high at liberal arts colleges than more "elite" research Universities.

 
So not only will you not improve your conditions if you are not already the best at what you do, if you have not already had all the advantages, no avenues need be provided for you to improve?

BTW, your sports analogy is a little iffy.

Scouts will go to the ends of the earth to find a good wing and then base their decision on talent and skill. Any kid willing to pick up a stick, put on the skates and put in the time has a shot. Grandpa playing for the Rangers really doesn't enter into it. Whereas with say entering an Ivy League school, Talent and skill count, but you don't really see college recruiters going out into the hinter lands or into the inner city to actively search for mathematicians, and they will accept a substandard student based on whether or not Grandpa endowed a chair.

Why the fixation on Harvard, the Ivies, and other similar institutions? They have a place. Tertiary education in the US offers a lot of different options. State flagship universities, in my opinion, should take on the role you seem to be advocating. Or the many tiers of schools below them.

because (and I know you will find this SHOCKING) somehow the Ivies stay at the top of those college ranking that declare who is and who is not elite.

PERSONALLY and SERIOUSLY, the institution doesn't matter nearly as much as what you want to study and who the instructors are. If I wanted to be a physicist and the leader in the concentration I was interested in taught at Iowa State, then i would go to Iowa State and not Cal Tech.

Over my life I have met a fair of ivy league graduates. they weren't that smart. Sometimes not even in their fields.
 
Ya, it kind of should be. It's like how the NHL provides the best opportunities for the best hockey players and the less qualified players remain in the minor leagues. When draft day comes around, it doesn't matter why one player is better than another and if one guy couldn't spend as much time as he wanted on the ice practicing because his mother was working two jobs to pay the bills and couldn't drive him to the rink, that's not the problem of the coaches and managers. They should only care about how well he plays hockey.

When the brightest potential physicists are studying physics, it's in the interest of everyone who cares about physics to have them in classes with similarly bright students so that the course work doesn't need to be slowed down any to let everyone catch up. It's in the same interest to have the best professors teaching them so that their potential is maximized to the fullest amount. That's not to say that there shouldn't be other opportunities available for the next tier of students in other schools, but if you want to be in the elite, it's fair to have you prove your ability to be there before being accepted.

We'll, it's a rare tenured full professor at a major research university who sees an undergrad, except for a work study student cleaning floors. Most of those oh so brilliant researchers don't teach any undergrad courses and few grad classes. They are too important conducting research and bringing the university those grants and that prestige that allow universities to command enormous tuition.

Of course there is the question of whether those brilliant researchers can actually teach. Many cannot and most have no interest in doing so.

That's just not true. Standard loads for full professors at major research universities are usually one or two classes per semester, with possible reduction due to administrative responsibilities. If they're lucky 1 or 2 of those classes per year might be graduate level. Statistically, about a third of an average full professor's 60 hour work week is spend on teaching, grading, or preparing for classes.

On the other hand, the best researchers often don't make the best teachers, so if you want to learn physics at an undergraduate level, a top tier research university may not be the best choice.
 
Ya, it kind of should be. It's like how the NHL provides the best opportunities for the best hockey players and the less qualified players remain in the minor leagues. When draft day comes around, it doesn't matter why one player is better than another and if one guy couldn't spend as much time as he wanted on the ice practicing because his mother was working two jobs to pay the bills and couldn't drive him to the rink, that's not the problem of the coaches and managers. They should only care about how well he plays hockey.

When the brightest potential physicists are studying physics, it's in the interest of everyone who cares about physics to have them in classes with similarly bright students so that the course work doesn't need to be slowed down any to let everyone catch up. It's in the same interest to have the best professors teaching them so that their potential is maximized to the fullest amount. That's not to say that there shouldn't be other opportunities available for the next tier of students in other schools, but if you want to be in the elite, it's fair to have you prove your ability to be there before being accepted.

So not only will you not improve your conditions if you are not already the best at what you do, if you have not already had all the advantages, no avenues need be provided for you to improve?

No. Just the opposite. Grouping students by the current level of skill allows tailored instruction that optimizes advancement for students of all levels. A student that is not at the level of their classmates will either learn less (or outright fail) than if they were in a class of similarly prepared students, or force the rest of the class to learn less by slowing the course down.
If the enter a school they are ready for, they are more likely to wind up with a degree worth far more than failing out of a more prestigious school because someone who doesn't really care about them was hung up on the % of people of their race at a particular school.
 
We'll, it's a rare tenured full professor at a major research university who sees an undergrad, except for a work study student cleaning floors. Most of those oh so brilliant researchers don't teach any undergrad courses and few grad classes. They are too important conducting research and bringing the university those grants and that prestige that allow universities to command enormous tuition.

Of course there is the question of whether those brilliant researchers can actually teach. Many cannot and most have no interest in doing so.

So, your kid wants to be a physicist. She gets full scholarships to both Cal Tech and Iowa State. According to you, is it a toss up either way because the education is the same or is there a difference between one and the other?

Why does she want to be a physics major? It matters. Cal Tech would have an advantage for getting into grad school because of its prestige. But frankly there aren't nearly enough students applying to grad school now, especially women. If she does well in school and kills on the GRE, thats a lot more important than which undergrad achool she attends. I'd tell her to visit both schools and go where she thought she'd like it the best. Now grad school are more important.
 
So, your kid wants to be a physicist. She gets full scholarships to both Cal Tech and Iowa State. According to you, is it a toss up either way because the education is the same or is there a difference between one and the other?

Why does she want to be a physics major? It matters. Cal Tech would have an advantage for getting into grad school because of its prestige. But frankly there aren't nearly enough students applying to grad school now, especially women. If she does well in school and kills on the GRE, thats a lot more important than which undergrad achool she attends. I'd tell her to visit both schools and go where she thought she'd like it the best. Now grad school are more important.

Really? So you're saying that the quality of the undergraduate physics program at Cal Tech and iowa State are identical? There's no difference between the two?

I imagine that it's easier to get good grades at Iowa a State, so really someone would be a fool to go to Cal Tech, because you need to work harder for the same result. You could be top of your class instead of in the middle with the same amount of work.
 
Why does she want to be a physics major? It matters. Cal Tech would have an advantage for getting into grad school because of its prestige. But frankly there aren't nearly enough students applying to grad school now, especially women. If she does well in school and kills on the GRE, thats a lot more important than which undergrad achool she attends. I'd tell her to visit both schools and go where she thought she'd like it the best. Now grad school are more important.

Really? So you're saying that the quality of the undergraduate physics program at Cal Tech and iowa State are identical? There's no difference between the two?

I haven't actually looked at either program in either school, so I can't say for certain. BUT the chances that she'd be in any class taught by a world class physicist as an undergrad are very, very small. It won't happen. At Cal Tech, her classes will mostly be taught by TAs, for many of whom English is a second language. Which can be fine or can be difficult, depending on the TA and his or her English proficiency--and interest in teaching.


I went to a large research university and then later, a small university with little research and few--well, no 'big names.' I learned quite a bit more at the small university.

At the large school, I had extremely talented--actually brilliant-- grad students from various parts of Asia as instructors. I do well with accents, actually. But one of those instructors was quite difficult to understand because of her very heavy accent. She was brilliant. We all liked her. But her accent often bogged the lesson--and us down. By us, I mean everyone in the class, although we all liked her and admired her tremendously. Oh, that was a calculus class, so you would have thought that English skills were not as important. But at a certain point, they are.

Other instructors from other countries: quite variable. Some were assholes, frankly, including at least one American. They were over worked flunkies for big name researchers, struggling to do their own work plus whatever work the researcher deigned to throw their way plus work up something for a dissertation plus find people to serve on their committees and THEN they had to teach stupid little undergrads. They weren't necessarily good instructors and they weren't necessarily interested in teaching anybody anything, assuming they could find the time. Nor were the big name researchers. Some of the grad students were great; some of the full profs were great--in class.

Now, I didn't go to Cal Tech and I always found physics to be quite boring so I took as little of it as I could get by with. Maybe Cal Tech is filled with enthusiastic world class physicists who love to teach undergrads, but I doubt they go near a classroom with an undergrad in it. Not more than a couple times a year, if that. So you really want to know how good of teachers are the grad assistants and the non-tenured faculty and the adjuncts. I don't know that but based on my experience elsewhere in a different field, I would not bet on Cal Tech being the better place to learn.

I did end up also going to a smaller university with no big name researchers or big name grad program but a very dedicated set of professors who not only were passionate about their particular areas but also were pretty glad to be teaching students--and most were good at it. I was able to do research as an undergrad that I would never have gotten near as an undergrad at a larger university. Heck, at the big U, even the good (in the classroom) profs tended to be assholes if you tried to actually, you know: ask questions in class or see them in their office hours. At the smaller school, they knew your names, were quick to pull students aside and direct them to specific topics for research, talk to other faculty to help make sure you got in on a good project, and so on. They knew you well enough to write good letters of recommendation. And they did so gladly. Suggested programs for grad school, or places for jobs.



I imagine that it's easier to get good grades at Iowa a State, so really someone would be a fool to go to Cal Tech, because you need to work harder for the same result. You could be top of your class instead of in the middle with the same amount of work.

Yeah, that's what Cal Tech wants you to think. So does US News blah blah.

The best place to go is the place where you will feel most engaged and most inspired. Period.

Now, if she doesn't intend to go to grad school, there's no reason at all for her to go to Cal Tech.

As I mentioned before, Cal Tech would give her a bit of a boost because of its reputation but not because she'd actually learn more there. Great grades and great GRE scores will get her in to a grad program. In grad school, reputation really does matter but more importantly, the specific areas of study matter. If she is interested in a specific area of physics, she needs to seek out schools which have good programs in those fields. If she isn't interested in a specific area of physics, she doesn't need to go to grad school in physics.

Edited to add: It's Pasadena (which is basically LA) vs Ames, Iowa. That's a pretty big difference in place/atmosphere/climate/cultural opportunities/population density and so on. That can matter a lot. I'd send her to MIT, but then, I like the Boston area a lot.
 
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If the elite schools are supposedly the ones that offer the best education, how do we define that best education?

The best education one can get, IMHO, is one that can start with a freshman with obvious deficits and make him/her a graduate with limitless possibilities.

In other words, nothing that can currently exist.

What do you think?

What makes for an elite school, for the best education?

Do our current systems, public and private, provide the best education possible to the most number of people?

Are the criteria for labeling a school elite in step with what we as a citizenry believe to be elite?

If we don't know the answers to these question, then what the hell is Scalia even talking about?

We rate schools by the end product, not by how much work they must do to attain that end product.

An elite school is one that turns out the most qualified graduates. In order to accomplish this they normally are highly selective about those who they admit, other than the AA admits with a high chance of dropping out.
 
If the elite schools are supposedly the ones that offer the best education, how do we define that best education?

The best education one can get, IMHO, is one that can start with a freshman with obvious deficits and make him/her a graduate with limitless possibilities.

In other words, nothing that can currently exist.
HBCUs do it on a regular basis. And on budget that only works by squeezing a dollar out of a dime. Now I know you know nothing about HBCUs or black people or people of any color who give a shit about people, but all these things exist and all these people do the things you say can't be done.
What do you think?

What makes for an elite school, for the best education?

Do our current systems, public and private, provide the best education possible to the most number of people?

Are the criteria for labeling a school elite in step with what we as a citizenry believe to be elite?

If we don't know the answers to these question, then what the hell is Scalia even talking about?

We rate schools by the end product, not by how much work they must do to attain that end product.
Actually we don't.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings?page=2

An elite school is one that turns out the most qualified graduates. In order to accomplish this they normally are highly selective about those who they admit, other than the AA admits with a high chance of dropping out.
Wrong again.

Daniel Ho, a professor at Stanford Law School, ran his own empirical study and found that attending a more selective school has “no detectable effect” on whether a black student passes the bar exam. A 2007 study called “The Effects of Affirmative Action Higher Education” produced similar findings — that “minority students who benefited from affirmative action earned higher grades and left school at lower rates than others, and they expressed neither greater nor less satisfaction.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rsities/?postshare=5421449780216566&tid=ss_fb
 
We'll, it's a rare tenured full professor at a major research university who sees an undergrad, except for a work study student cleaning floors. Most of those oh so brilliant researchers don't teach any undergrad courses and few grad classes. They are too important conducting research and bringing the university those grants and that prestige that allow universities to command enormous tuition.

Of course there is the question of whether those brilliant researchers can actually teach. Many cannot and most have no interest in doing so.

That's just not true. Standard loads for full professors at major research universities are usually one or two classes per semester, with possible reduction due to administrative responsibilities. If they're lucky 1 or 2 of those classes per year might be graduate level. Statistically, about a third of an average full professor's 60 hour work week is spend on teaching, grading, or preparing for classes.

On the other hand, the best researchers often don't make the best teachers, so if you want to learn physics at an undergraduate level, a top tier research university may not be the best choice.

Top researchers are not often found teaching undergrad classes. Even when their names are attached to the class, the teaching is often performed by grad students, which is sometimes a better deal.

By your own estimation of a tenured full professor teaching one or two classes each semester, and one or two per year--or up to half of those being grad classes, an undergrad is not very likely to be taught by a tenured full professor, much less a world class researcher, who often have reduced teaching loads and concentrate on their own work, funded by grants they bring to the university.
 
I actually work at what many would call an elite prep school. It's a high school, so it's a little different, but the concept is the same. My own particular role in the school is small, but I come in contact with many different areas. The only thing I can put my finger on that really makes a distinction between elite and non-elite schools is the expectations that come along with status. Some of the curricula we use is, IMHO, inferior. However, when the pressure is on to succeed, the students figure out a way to get it done. Much of the time these students have their parents really pushing them. The pressure extends to the teachers as well, since they consider it their duty to provide each student with individual attention. In the end, almost everybody is exhausted by the process, but you know what? Our students can get into whatever college they choose.
 
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