What Prevents a Person from Moving Beyond Religion?

[Learner]

The reverse (although slowly) seems to be happening in China lately and other countries outside the West. Japan only 2% Chrisitian or less I believe!

Watched an interesting preacher highlighting that: the "Centre of Christianity" he describes has been moving from its origin in history; the middle-East, through to Europe (though declined today) shifting to the USA and then Africa now (alive again in Russia) , doing perhaps a few rounds across the world before ending back to the middle-East at some point. (Sounds like something in revelation lol)

 

[Opoponax]

If I had no mind of my own and was not able to think independently, I'd have to conclude that all republicans, conservatives, and even libertarians, are retarded, corrupt, and evil to the core; but I have the sense (and cognitive ability) to know that that is not true.

After reading that I realize now that there is another obvious reason people do not move beyond religion.

When I was young there were lots of catholics, protestants, a couple Jews, blacks, hispanics, there were republicans and democrats, doctors, lawyers, and folks of every color, ethnicity and persuasion. But there was not a single atheist. In the U.S. anyway, atheism was and is demonized. Everyone held, and young people were taught, that atheism was a great evil, even though it was not. Public schools had to remove prayer because of atheism.

Without a doubt I am now certain that this was and is the primary reason people do not move beyond religion, precisely because they never meet anyone who has. Instead, they have this bigoted, prejudiced picture of what atheism and an atheist is.

Fortunately, however, that is changing in the U.S., and in a big way. If not atheist, certainly lots of people meeting each other who have no interest in religion. It took me 45 years to meet my first atheist, in casual conversation, not going to an atheist meetup of something like that.

Good points. I was raised by conservative Christian parents, and "atheists" was what the Soviets were. That is, that was my first and only memorable exposure to the concept of non-belief. And as far as I knew, everyone but the evil communists were a believers. I never actually met someone who called themselves an atheist. Hell... I might be the first person I knew who didn't believe. I had the nasty habit of loving nearly every book I could get my hands on, which is what eventually what led me to the being the horrible blasphemer I am now. Damn books.

Anyway, atheism was a very abstract, almost fictional thing, so yeah, it's easy to see how back before the internet, people could live their entire lives and never really know anything about it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The reverse (although slowly) seems to be happening in China lately and other countries outside the West. Japan only 2% Chrisitian or less I believe!

Watched an interesting preacher highlighting that: the "Centre of Christianity" he describes has been moving from its origin in history; the middle-East, through to Europe (though declined today) shifting to the USA and then Africa now (alive again in Russia) , doing perhaps a few rounds across the world before ending back to the middle-East at some point. (Sounds like something in revelation lol)

People tend to resist police action until they become the police, then they favor police action. More freedom will always mean less religion.

 

[Random Person]

The reverse (although slowly) seems to be happening in China lately and other countries outside the West. Japan only 2% Chrisitian or less I believe!

Watched an interesting preacher highlighting that: the "Centre of Christianity" he describes has been moving from its origin in history; the middle-East, through to Europe (though declined today) shifting to the USA and then Africa now (alive again in Russia) , doing perhaps a few rounds across the world before ending back to the middle-East at some point. (Sounds like something in revelation lol)

People tend to resist police action until they become the police, then they favor police action. More freedom will always mean less religion.

How do you explain places like Cuba, North Korea and China?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The reverse (although slowly) seems to be happening in China lately and other countries outside the West. Japan only 2% Chrisitian or less I believe!

Watched an interesting preacher highlighting that: the "Centre of Christianity" he describes has been moving from its origin in history; the middle-East, through to Europe (though declined today) shifting to the USA and then Africa now (alive again in Russia) , doing perhaps a few rounds across the world before ending back to the middle-East at some point. (Sounds like something in revelation lol)

People tend to resist police action until they become the police, then they favor police action. More freedom will always mean less religion.

How do you explain places like Cuba, North Korea and China?

They support my statement.

 

[Random Person]

How do you explain places like Cuba, North Korea and China?

They support my statement.

You believe that people in Cuba, North Korea and China have more freedom that the US?

 

[ronburgundy]

I think their are differences in intellectual values that allow some people to engage in more willful self delusion. I think very few people in modern societies lack sufficient intellect or knowledge to realize that God is a made up self serving idea that is highly implausible. Realizing this takes little more intellect that realizing it about the tooth fairy, which nearly every kid is cognitively capable of even prior to puberty.

For me this is the million dollar question. And I gravitate toward thinking that when people are telling me their ghost stories they are being no less sincere than a four year old telling me what Santa brought him for Christmas. Humans love to pretend. Watching movies, reading fiction, listening to a song, we're engaging in fantasy that is enjoyable. So I often wonder whether someone is doing the same thing when they're telling me they saw their departed father. The emotional component of these stories is unmistakable but I sometimes wonder whether they're just pretending for sheer enjoyment.

Maybe I should think of it as "emotional intoxication" when I hear someone telling me one of these stories, someone who should know better, not a four year old telling me about his presents from Santa. But for the most part I think they're being sincere.

I'm not saying that theists are being insincere as though they are outright lying to others about what they believe. I'm saying that they go to lengths to delude themselves into believing that its true. They are generally aware that rational thought and reason cannot support it, so despite relying upon reason and science for most things when the truth has immediate consequences, they pretend that somehow reason and science don't apply to their religious beliefs. They are aware they have no justification for this inconsistent use of reasoning, so they actively avoid thinking about it and get upset when non-believers pressure them to think about it. This is the source of most aggression against non-believers and most attempts to convert them. Non-believers are a constant reminder that there is reason to doubt their beliefs, so they want to get rid of non-believers by either conversion or violence.

It's analogous to the mother of murderer who despite clear cut evidence that their child is guilty convinces themselves it isn't true, even if they personally saw some of that evidence. They go to lengths to avoid thinking critically about it and don't apply the same use of knowledge and reasoning they would in most other circumstances. She doesn't lack intellect needed to understand the evidence. She lacks the will to consider that evidence because on some level she knows that it can only point to a conclusion that she is unwilling to accept.

 

[Jobar]

So if, for instance, I were to insist on only ever referring to atheism as "Your Holy Nothing Cult" and atheists as Nothing Cultists, your response would be to think,

Well, nothing created me or my universe, i owe deference to nothing, nothing judges me, nothing awaits me after death.
Nothing cares if i fail to sacrifice nothing to nothing in the name of nothing, nothing makes religious sense to me, nothing makes me feel that i am particularly special as far as the universe goes...

I would think , FINALLY, a believer gets it.

 

[southernhybrid]

The reverse (although slowly) seems to be happening in China lately and other countries outside the West. Japan only 2% Chrisitian or less I believe!

Watched an interesting preacher highlighting that: the "Centre of Christianity" he describes has been moving from its origin in history; the middle-East, through to Europe (though declined today) shifting to the USA and then Africa now (alive again in Russia) , doing perhaps a few rounds across the world before ending back to the middle-East at some point. (Sounds like something in revelation lol)

I think there is a fairly reasonable explanation for some of that. If you do some research, you will discover that the countries that have the best social programs and safety nets also have the smallest number of believers. The countries that are the poorest, where many or most people are suffering, have a larger percentage of theists. In other words, when you aren't getting the things that you need to survive, you tend to look for some kind of hope outside of reality. So, you tell yourself that your rewards or justice will come to you in an afterlife. I sometimes think that's why there are so many black Christians in the US. There is a lot more poverty among black folks in the US, so they find solace in their churches. I personally know quite a few of those folks.

Of course, there are plenty of theists that remain so for some of the other reasons stated earlier, ie, community. opportunity for charity, tribalism and indoctrination etc., but it's very common to find more theists in very poor, miserable countries. While there are more atheists in the US, then there probably were in past days, it's very possible that as/if the population becomes a lot worse off, there will be an increase in the number of Christians, since Christianity remains the primary religion in the country.

Take a look at where American Christianity has been going in recent decades. We have prosperity gospel, that puts more emphasis on materialism than on spirituality. I see this as a reflection of our increasingly materialistic society. We have severe tribalism occurring among the majority of evangelicals, but we also have a lot more cultural Christians, those that enjoy the community and rituals of their religion, while not particularly strong in their beliefs.

I grew up in an evangelical home. My parents weren't greedy. My mother cherry picked the nicer parts of Christianity, while my father choose the meaner, more tribal aspects. People use or benefit from religion by tailoring it to their specific needs. I'm not an atheist that demonizes all religion. I think it serves a lot of positive purposes for some people. I just hate it when it's used to justify hatred and severe tribalism. I hate it when it's forced on others, or used by those in government to manipulate people. But, I digress as usual.

 

[rousseau]

The countries that are the poorest, where many or most people are suffering, have a larger percentage of theists. In other words, when you aren't getting the things that you need to survive, you tend to look for some kind of hope outside of reality. So, you tell yourself that your rewards or justice will come to you in an afterlife. I sometimes think that's why there are so many black Christians in the US. There is a lot more poverty among black folks in the US, so they find solace in their churches. I personally know quite a few of those folks.

I'd say the causes are a bit more complex, and a big factor is economic. For one, robust economies attract people who are less likely to be believers, and poor economies repel them. And so there's a not so subtle genetic effect.

The other thing is that a lot of places in a continent like Africa simply do not have an education system of any kind past primary school. So in places like that, on top of the brain drain, the knowledge of science is just not there.

Usually places with a strong safety net also have a long history in the enlightenment tradition, good government, robust education. The States are a bit of an outlier because of a heavy Conservative culture.

 

[Opoponax]

.In other words, when you aren't getting the things that you need to survive, you tend to look for some kind of hope outside of reality.

This is why I play the lottery.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The countries that are the poorest, where many or most people are suffering, have a larger percentage of theists. In other words, when you aren't getting the things that you need to survive, you tend to look for some kind of hope outside of reality. So, you tell yourself that your rewards or justice will come to you in an afterlife. I sometimes think that's why there are so many black Christians in the US. There is a lot more poverty among black folks in the US, so they find solace in their churches. I personally know quite a few of those folks.

I'd say the causes are a bit more complex, and a big factor is economic. For one, robust economies attract people who are less likely to be believers, and poor economies repel them. And so there's a not so subtle genetic effect.

The other thing is that a lot of places in a continent like Africa simply do not have an education system of any kind past primary school. So in places like that, on top of the brain drain, the knowledge of science is just not there.

Usually places with a strong safety net also have a long history in the enlightenment tradition, good government, robust education. The States are a bit of an outlier because of a heavy Conservative culture.

There's no doubt that scientific literacy destroys religion. An attraction to woo, a superstitious nature, will work toward retaining religious belief even with apparent scientific literacy.

More directly, religious behavior takes time. If one is carrying on with alleged sacred rituals one has less time for other pursuits, less time to encounter that event that sparks questioning.

Scientific literacy can also change economic conditions in a society while religion alone cannot. In those cases where religion apparently affects change, the actual change was brought about with scientific knowledge, not more woo. Woo can actually be a vehicle for scientific knowledge but eventually it will kill off the woo.

Much time in my own youth was spent on religious behavior. Only when the religious superstition weakened as a result of simply escaping from that small religious world and encountering new and different things did religious belief have a chance to die.