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What Prevents a Person from Moving Beyond Religion?

Plenty of believers have little to no social life outside their churches. If they stop professing belief, they can lose all their family, spouses, friends, even business relationships.

The way that religions proactively try to coax their victims - er, members to refrain from mixing with 'outsiders' is completely immoral, bordering on (what should be) criminal IMO. The institutions' importance dwarfs that of the well-being and mental health of their charges.

'Moving beyond religion' can take incredible courage

Yup. I've never had to summon that kind of strength, except maybe when I dropped out of school and left home at 17, never to return. And even that didn't require the kind of courage required to buck religion - I was raised to be able to do that, even though it wasn't the intended effect. But those raised and indoctrinated into religions have a truly monumental task of overcoming conditioning. Some of the 'deconverted' people I've met online are among the strongest, most courageous and ethically centered people I ever met anywhere.
 
So, there are few different ways to frame the OP question. One question is simply what motivates people to accept theism and religion. That is where things like fear of death and uncertainty, and social conditioning come into play. But even though these fears and social pressures can vary between people, these are often just as much in play for many atheist, who despite these factors wind up rejecting the religion they were socialized with. Given the same degree of emotional biases and same social pressures, one person can still reject religion and theism while another embraces it even more strongly than their social experiences would predict (e.g., the person who becomes more fundamentalist than their barely practicing parents). So that raises the question of what factors about the person determine how they respond to natural human biases/emotions and social pressures that favor religion.

I think their are differences in intellectual values that allow some people to engage in more willful self delusion. I think very few people in modern societies lack sufficient intellect or knowledge to realize that God is a made up self serving idea that is highly implausible. Realizing this takes little more intellect that realizing it about the tooth fairy, which nearly every kid is cognitively capable of even prior to puberty.

Rather some people are more willing to put forth the effort to con themselves into believing and it doesn't bother them to be intellectually dishonest and knowingly reject rational thought when it suits them do so. In essence, they make a willful choice to be irrational and give into their emotional biases. This is why most theists will engage in rationalizations and arguments to defend their beliefs that they themselves easily see are invalid when they given about a different topic.

Another similar factor is something called "cognitive style", which is not about what one is intellectually capable of doing but rather the degree to which one tends to bother using the intellectual abilities they have versus just giving into intuitive and emotionally-based biases that typically favor a particular conclusion without having to put forth much effort. In fact, there was a study where they showed that theists are more likely than atheists to give objectively wrong answers to rather simple math problems, when the wrong answer was one that tends to come easily and intuitively to mind. For example, "Imagine that a bat and a baseball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?” Research shows that the answer of "10 cents" comes quickly to mind for most people, both atheists and theists. However, theists are more likely to go with that initial intuition and give it as their final answer, whereas atheists are more likely to be skeptical of that intuition and put it in the effort to reason about it more analytically to reach the correct conclusion of "5 cents". The research shows that theist are not generally worse at math, but just fail to use their math skills when their is an intuitive answer that comes easily to mind. Follow-up studies showed that if you have theists think about past experiences when they were rewarded by going with the intuition, they later report being more confident in their religious beliefs. But if you have them think about experiences where their intuition about something was wrong, they become less confident.

Tom Sawyer said:
I think one of the main things is that for 90% of religious people, the fact that they're religious really doesn't matter. It's just kind of a default setting like cheering for the local sports team. Sure, you could take the time to look into the sport and analyze other teams and decide that one from two states over is actually more to your liking, but why bother when it's just so simple to cheer for the guys who wear your city's name on their jerseys? There's no particular benefit to it and the relevant and important parts of your life won't be affected at all if you bother, so there's not a need for it.

Religion is the same way. Most people see their own religion as vaguely good and it doesn't cause them any problems and there's generally no real improvement in one's life brought about by switching to Hinduism or atheism or Yogic Bouncing, so there's no need for it.

There is some truth to this, but I think it's more complicated. Rooting for your sports team doesn't entail actually believing in things that
you have no basis to think are accurate and which are rather obviously implausible and made up. Wanting my team to win is a preference not a belief. And even when sports fans believe things about sports that are emotionally biased (e.g., that pitch was a strike, my QB did not cheat by deflating footballs) there truly is no real consequence to being wrong and the disagreements are just mere, entertainment. But every theist knows that disagreements about religious beliefs are deadly serious and have major consequences. Not only are there serious real social and political consequences of disagreements, but for any sincere believer there are eternal consequences if their beliefs are wrong. Sure, there are many insincere theists whose claim to belief are just empty words, but they are far fewer than 90% of believers.

Also, it is more than that believers don't have a motive to bother to change their beliefs. Many go to lengths to defend and rationalize those beliefs, plus exert tons of pressure on their kids and others to share those beliefs, far moreso than the pressure to root for the local sports team. That shows that they do think their lives would be different (and worse) if they changed their beliefs, rather than it just being a passive indifference.

What you are describing seems like it would only apply to those who really give no thought or weight to religious ideas in their life or political choices, because they really don't believe in a meaningful psychological sense. In the US, I think that would be closer to maybe 40% than 90% (though higher in Canada and other Western countries).
 
That would definitely explain why religion predominates in women over men, as they tend to rely more on intuition/emotion than reason.
 
Another factor that hasn't been mentioned yet is people who just haven't been exposed to alternate ideas. If everyone in your community shares your view then.. ?
 
I think their are differences in intellectual values that allow some people to engage in more willful self delusion. I think very few people in modern societies lack sufficient intellect or knowledge to realize that God is a made up self serving idea that is highly implausible. Realizing this takes little more intellect that realizing it about the tooth fairy, which nearly every kid is cognitively capable of even prior to puberty.
For me this is the million dollar question. And I gravitate toward thinking that when people are telling me their ghost stories they are being no less sincere than a four year old telling me what Santa brought him for Christmas. Humans love to pretend. Watching movies, reading fiction, listening to a song, we're engaging in fantasy that is enjoyable. So I often wonder whether someone is doing the same thing when they're telling me they saw their departed father. The emotional component of these stories is unmistakable but I sometimes wonder whether they're just pretending for sheer enjoyment.

Maybe I should think of it as "emotional intoxication" when I hear someone telling me one of these stories, someone who should know better, not a four year old telling me about his presents from Santa. But for the most part I think they're being sincere.
 
Something I realized back in the early 90s when talking to a Christian I worked with. It is not a simple belief that can be academically and logically debated. He was living a reality of a god, spirits, and devils. It was all very real to him.
 
I've known engineers on both sides. The open minded one's liked the calculated safety of Pascal's Wager.

[...]

Wait, the open-minded ones thought Pascal's wager was reasonable?

I shudder to ask what the unreasonable ones were like.
 
I've known engineers on both sides. The open minded one's liked the calculated safety of Pascal's Wager.

[...]

Wait, the open-minded ones thought Pascal's wager was reasonable?

I shudder to ask what the unreasonable ones were like.

Being a competent practioner of an objective science based ossupation does not equate to an uber rationalism, like Spock.
 
Something I realized back in the early 90s when talking to a Christian I worked with. It is not a simple belief that can be academically and logically debated. He was living a reality of a god, spirits, and devils. It was all very real to him.

Yes, like believing in ghosts.
 
I went to a funeral yesterday; I was one of the pallbearers, in fact. An old friend of mine, Wayne R., a Vietnam veteran, died of liver cancer. What I saw there had me thinking of this thread.

Wayne was religious throughout his life; he never pushed it on anyone, but he attended a local Church of the Nazarene regularly. So as you would expect, his service was basically a prayer meeting and sermon; I counted 8 different prayers, 5 different hymns, a remembrance from one of his grandsons thanking Wayne for bringing him to Jesus, and a testimonial from a local preacher who had known Wayne all his life. As usual for me at most funerals, I felt quite like an anthropologist watching primitives solemnly smearing themselves with blue mud.

But... all that solemn nonsense was functioning as a coping mechanism for his family, and many (most) of the people there. It provided them a socially acceptable outlet for their very real and deep grief- I'm sure most of them would have no idea how to face the death of a loved one, and their own eventual end, without their superstition.

Of course I kept silent about my own ways of dealing with such loss; neither the place nor the time to try to convince anyone of the wrongness of their faith. Nor would I have wanted to anger Wayne's friends or family, many of whom are my friends also.

A few of those people know of my atheism, and all honor to them- I never got prodded or questioned about it. They also knew it wasn't the time or place for that. Still, it made me wonder- when is the time, and where is the best place, to get them to question their faith? I admit I don't have any good answers.
 
I went to a funeral yesterday; I was one of the pallbearers, in fact. An old friend of mine, Wayne R., a Vietnam veteran, died of liver cancer. What I saw there had me thinking of this thread.

Wayne was religious throughout his life; he never pushed it on anyone, but he attended a local Church of the Nazarene regularly. So as you would expect, his service was basically a prayer meeting and sermon; I counted 8 different prayers, 5 different hymns, a remembrance from one of his grandsons thanking Wayne for bringing him to Jesus, and a testimonial from a local preacher who had known Wayne all his life. As usual for me at most funerals, I felt quite like an anthropologist watching primitives solemnly smearing themselves with blue mud.

But... all that solemn nonsense was functioning as a coping mechanism for his family, and many (most) of the people there. It provided them a socially acceptable outlet for their very real and deep grief- I'm sure most of them would have no idea how to face the death of a loved one, and their own eventual end, without their superstition.

Of course I kept silent about my own ways of dealing with such loss; neither the place nor the time to try to convince anyone of the wrongness of their faith. Nor would I have wanted to anger Wayne's friends or family, many of whom are my friends also.

A few of those people know of my atheism, and all honor to them- I never got prodded or questioned about it. They also knew it wasn't the time or place for that. Still, it made me wonder- when is the time, and where is the best place, to get them to question their faith? I admit I don't have any good answers.

There is a memorial in a nearby community park in remembrance of four children that died in a house fire. The word around town is that the father has since deconverted from his christian convictions. Understandable. And how does any intelligent, compassionate person tell him he is wrong?

There isn't a right time or place. I liken it to drug addiction. Only the addicted will ever recognize and know the right time or place.
 
I went to a funeral yesterday; I was one of the pallbearers, in fact. An old friend of mine, Wayne R., a Vietnam veteran, died of liver cancer. What I saw there had me thinking of this thread.

Wayne was religious throughout his life; he never pushed it on anyone, but he attended a local Church of the Nazarene regularly. So as you would expect, his service was basically a prayer meeting and sermon; I counted 8 different prayers, 5 different hymns, a remembrance from one of his grandsons thanking Wayne for bringing him to Jesus, and a testimonial from a local preacher who had known Wayne all his life. As usual for me at most funerals, I felt quite like an anthropologist watching primitives solemnly smearing themselves with blue mud.

But... all that solemn nonsense was functioning as a coping mechanism for his family, and many (most) of the people there. It provided them a socially acceptable outlet for their very real and deep grief- I'm sure most of them would have no idea how to face the death of a loved one, and their own eventual end, without their superstition.

Of course I kept silent about my own ways of dealing with such loss; neither the place nor the time to try to convince anyone of the wrongness of their faith. Nor would I have wanted to anger Wayne's friends or family, many of whom are my friends also.

A few of those people know of my atheism, and all honor to them- I never got prodded or questioned about it. They also knew it wasn't the time or place for that. Still, it made me wonder- when is the time, and where is the best place, to get them to question their faith? I admit I don't have any good answers.

There is a memorial in a nearby community park in remembrance of four children that died in a house fire. The word around town is that the father has since deconverted from his christian convictions. Understandable. And how does any intelligent, compassionate person tell him he is wrong?

There isn't a right time or place. I liken it to drug addiction. Only the addicted will ever recognize and know the right time or place.

Being atheist does not mean being without compaassion. Acting like Christians in their stark anger and hatred of the none belivers and we become like them.
 
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9LPwA7FRZ4[/YOUTUBE]
 
I'll go with lack of curiosity. I think that says a lot.

My sister was in the smart kid programs when she was a kid, and is highly educated. But to speak to her about things intellectual, you'd never know it. She's a stump. She believes the same things about politics and religion as he did when she was 15 years old (she's 45 now), and with the exact same level of sophistication. She's never wavered, never gotten beyond that embryonic development stage in her intellect.

Why did you vote for Trump?

Because I vote Republican.

Why?

Stop it, Opoponax, it's just what I believe.

And there's a hard edge to that response, as in, I believe what I believe because that's what I've always believed and I'll never believe anything else. So shut your fucking mouth.

She loves watching that Leah Remini show about Scientology. Thinks its absolutely batshit. Of course it's batshit. Any reasonable person knows that Scientology is batshit. However, the application of the why of the batshit will never be extended to what she believes. It never occurs to her to apply the same scrutiny to her own beliefs. Like the sun and the moon, they just are.

She went through college, took philosophy, was exposed to other schools of thought, and she got good grades. None of it ever moved her to believe differently. She has not a single bit of curiosity as to how the world works because she already knows. Why dick around by trying to figure out if 1 + 2 could = 11? It's just stupid.

I'd say it was sad if it wasn't so maddening.
 
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bad_beliefs_dont_die

One of the most perceptive articles I've ever read on this subject, which I've quoted and linked to any number of times.

Finally, it should be comforting to all skeptics to remember that the truly amazing part of all of this is not that so few beliefs change or that people can be so irrational, but that anyone’s beliefs ever change at all. Skeptics’ ability to alter their own beliefs in response to data is a true gift; a unique, powerful, and precious ability. It is genuinely a “higher brain function” in that it goes against some of the most natural and fundamental biological urges. Skeptics must appreciate the power and, truly, the dangerousness that this ability bestows upon them. They have in their possession a skill that can be frightening, life-changing, and capable of inducing pain. In turning this ability on others it should be used carefully and wisely. Challenging beliefs must always be done with care and compassion.

Skeptics must remember to always keep their eye on the goal. They must see the long view. They must attempt to win the war for rational beliefs, not to engage in a fight to the death over any one particular battle with any one particular individual or any one particular belief. Not only must skeptics’ methods and data be clean, direct, and unbiased, their demeanor and behavior must be as well.

One of the ways that 'higher brain function' can induce pain is when we realize that others lack it entirely, or almost so. Like Opoponax' sister, many of my friends and family seem simply unable to analyze and change their own beliefs.

Ah, snug lie those that slumber
Beneath Conviction's roof.
Their floors are sturdy lumber
Their windows weatherproof.
But I sleep cold forever
And cold sleep all my kind
For I was born to shiver
In the draft from an open mind.

-Phyllis McGinley
 
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bad_beliefs_dont_die

One of the most perceptive articles I've ever read on this subject, which I've quoted and linked to any number of times.

Finally, it should be comforting to all skeptics to remember that the truly amazing part of all of this is not that so few beliefs change or that people can be so irrational, but that anyone’s beliefs ever change at all. Skeptics’ ability to alter their own beliefs in response to data is a true gift; a unique, powerful, and precious ability. It is genuinely a “higher brain function” in that it goes against some of the most natural and fundamental biological urges. Skeptics must appreciate the power and, truly, the dangerousness that this ability bestows upon them. They have in their possession a skill that can be frightening, life-changing, and capable of inducing pain. In turning this ability on others it should be used carefully and wisely. Challenging beliefs must always be done with care and compassion.

Skeptics must remember to always keep their eye on the goal. They must see the long view. They must attempt to win the war for rational beliefs, not to engage in a fight to the death over any one particular battle with any one particular individual or any one particular belief. Not only must skeptics’ methods and data be clean, direct, and unbiased, their demeanor and behavior must be as well.

One of the ways that 'higher brain function' can induce pain is when we realize that others lack it entirely, or almost so. Like Opoponax' sister, many of my friends and family seem simply unable to analyze and change their own beliefs.

Ah, snug lie those that slumber
Beneath Conviction's roof.
Their floors are sturdy lumber
Their windows weatherproof.
But I sleep cold forever
And cold sleep all my kind
For I was born to shiver
In the draft from an open mind.

-Phyllis McGinley



Your pet article would have a point if there were rational people and irrational people and the rational people could somehow persuade the irrational people to become rational.

People aren't like that.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll go with lack of curiosity. I think that says a lot.

My sister was in the smart kid programs when she was a kid, and is highly educated. But to speak to her about things intellectual, you'd never know it. She's a stump. She believes the same things about politics and religion as he did when she was 15 years old (she's 45 now), and with the exact same level of sophistication. She's never wavered, never gotten beyond that embryonic development stage in her intellect.

Why did you vote for Trump?

Because I vote Republican.

Why?

Stop it, Opoponax, it's just what I believe.

And there's a hard edge to that response, as in, I believe what I believe because that's what I've always believed and I'll never believe anything else. So shut your fucking mouth.

She loves watching that Leah Remini show about Scientology. Thinks its absolutely batshit. Of course it's batshit. Any reasonable person knows that Scientology is batshit. However, the application of the why of the batshit will never be extended to what she believes. It never occurs to her to apply the same scrutiny to her own beliefs. Like the sun and the moon, they just are.

She went through college, took philosophy, was exposed to other schools of thought, and she got good grades. None of it ever moved her to believe differently. She has not a single bit of curiosity as to how the world works because she already knows. Why dick around by trying to figure out if 1 + 2 could = 11? It's just stupid.

I'd say it was sad if it wasn't so maddening.



Your sister could be on a religious forum making the same complaints about you. Both of you are convinced they are right.
 
At the top of the list is obviously insufficient intellect, the absence of a strong innate curiosity about how things work. It is no different than eventually understanding there really isn't a Tooth Fairy, and understanding instead how the money comes to be under the pillow. This is not a person's fault, it's not willful. We all know people who's religion is everything to them because it's all they know. These are primarily the Fundamentalists.

Yes.

They are a minority but probably not exactly a small one. Or maybe it's just that they are seriously more conspicuous for being the ugly face of religion.

Secondly would be peer pressure to include cultural pressure.

Many people don't really need any proactive peer pressure to conform. They will do it because it's instinctive when it's their interest. How many is difficult to say but I would say quite a lot.

Cultural pressure is something else. Religious groups may succeed in looking attractive for whatever reason. Still, it's probably a minority that will be culturally seduced into religion. Converts?

Practicing religion can have its rewards, even for people who have the intellect to know it's just superstitious nonsense. It can bring great wealth.

Mostly, this would concern a very small minority, simply because we can't be all seriously rich. Some people have to do the shit jobs.

Also, some people are very superstitious, even though they may be quite bright. Call it simply being overly emotional. Religion and superstition just feel good, even if I'm a doctor or a scientist with respectable credentials.

Being superstitious and emotional are both effective but two very different things. Being superstitious is really a psychological condition. I don't expect many people to fall into that category although I wouldn't swear it (swearing brings bad luck). I would say it's a small minority.

Emotion I think can affect much more people. Many people are naturally a bit on the emotional side and will respond to the lure of being part of a close-nit community with values of solidarity and love. Many if not most religious groups do that quite well.

Are there other reasons?

Cultural impregnation just by being the child of your parents. This works both ways, though.

Ideological preferences. Most religions seem to express conservative values and many people, perhaps most people, probably lean that way of their own accord.

Intellectual seduction. That's essentially the Catholic Church with a seriously elaborate conception of the devine. At some period of the history of the world, this may have been an attraction for bright people who would have been bored to death with the intellectual limitation of their contemporaries. Right now, fortunately, the brightest among us can go into finance instead. :rolleyes:

And then, perhaps, a few select people have actually met with God or were given the Revelation of His existence. Those can only be the very few. Twelve people at most. :p

And all sorts of sundry psychological conditions that makes joining a religious group seem like a good idea or a solution to your problems.

So, essentially, I think that would be broadly the same kind of people who are religious and who are not religious. It's I think largely a matter of opportunity and accident of life. So, don't be too harsh on the other side. You could be one of them and many will have crossed the aisle.
EB
 
Your sister could be on a religious forum making the same complaints about you. Both of you are convinced they are right.

She couldn't make the same complaint about me because I've matured beyond what I believed when I was in high school.

Am I convinced I'm right (as vague as that is)? Well, unlike my sister, I understand that everything has an, "Okay, but what about this?" or "have you considered that?" or "with the information I have, this appears to be correct" etc.

The point is that I'm genuinely open to new information, but more importantly, I know that I don't know. I know there are things outside my experience that I can't understand because I don't and due to life being finite, I can't have knowledge of those things. But I like to learn and it doesn't scare me to change my opinion of something based on things I didn't know before.

For example, if something were to happen that would give me articulable and provable reasons to believe in a god, I'd believe. I wouldn't deny what I genuinely perceived to be the truth. I'm not afraid of a god existing. But I have gone to admirable lengths to try and find that out.

Now, this lack unchanging position thing isn't limited to the religious. For example, Noam Chomsky has stated that he came to his conclusions when he was 23 (or somewhere thereabouts) and hasn't saw the need to change his mind about anything [relevant] since then. I find that severely problematic, and it's the likely reason he's been relegated to relative obscurity. If you heard what Noam had to say 30 years ago, there's no need to listen to him now.

And so it goes with my sister. If you talked to her 30 years ago, when she was 15, nothing's changed in the way of her intellect. The ontological argument? Never heard of it. Aquinas? Anselm? She has little to no clue who they are. She may have run across them in a philosophy class, but if not, she'd never bother to seek out the serious arguments for the existence of her god. And Locke, Rousseau, or Hobbes? Forget it. The paper-thin foundation of her political philosophy was what our parents told her it was back in the mid 1980s. I think that if our parent's had been communists, she'd have a portrait of Stalin or Lenin up in the living room now (rather than the small framed picture of Ronald Reagan). But instead she's conservative because that's what mom and dad were.

It's a waste of what should've been a fine mind.
 
Insufficient curiosity? The atheist answer to every ontological question is "It just exists. No reason." This is the answer of an exhausted mother dealing with the "why" stage, not that of a curious scientist. Atheists love Occam's razor: always seek the "simplest" answer. Not actually how the real world works, but boy is it ever comforting to insist that the truth is always simple.
 
Insufficient curiosity? The atheist answer to every ontological question is "It just exists. No reason." This is the answer of an exhausted mother dealing with the "why" stage, not that of a curious scientist. Atheists love Occam's razor: always seek the "simplest" answer. Not actually how the real world works, but boy is it ever comforting to insist that the truth is always simple.

That's not even remotely related to any atheist answer to a question. We may not know the reason, but that's not an excuse to just make shit up.
 
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