What should Israel do?

[Crazy Eddie]

What the fuck does that mean?

You have governments of surrounding countries deciding to attack Israel, not the Palestinians.

And the Palestinians were not involved in the attacks since they had no military.

Your inability to distinguish the difference between actions taken by governments and the lack of actions taken by a bunch of civilians is astonishing.

But I see bigotry at the bottom of this. "Those dirty Muslims, they're all the same thing."

Frankly, I don't how anybody but a sick racist could support the actions taken by Israel in the last 50 years. They have been so nasty and brutal towards the Palestinians. But of course if one doesn't see the Palestinians as human the brutal treatment doesn't mean much.

No. I'm saying that Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the like are all just manifestations of the underlying Jihadist attack on Israel.

And you are disastrously wrong about that. These organizations do not share a command structure, they do not have the same goals, the same ideology or the same politics. Nor do they have the same vision for what a future Palestinian state would even look like; if you took away their single point of agreement on their antipathy for Israel, they would probably take to fighting amongst themselves inside of a week.

If there is any sort of "underlying power" behind these different organizations, it is only the blowback of Israel's own jingoistic militarism. Beyond that, they are just a manifestation of a social phenomenon that is unique to the masses of people who have suffered injustice at the hands of the Israeli government (and they're not even the SAME people; Hezbollah is a Lebanese movement, not a Palestinian one).

They attribute the deaths from their failed rockets to Israel.

They BLAME Israel for the deaths (.e.g look what the Zionists made us do!). They've never been coy about the cause.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. I'm saying that Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the like are all just manifestations of the underlying Jihadist attack on Israel.

And you are disastrously wrong about that. These organizations do not share a command structure, they do not have the same goals, the same ideology or the same politics. Nor do they have the same vision for what a future Palestinian state would even look like; if you took away their single point of agreement on their antipathy for Israel, they would probably take to fighting amongst themselves inside of a week.

But they do share a common financing and basic goal.

 

[untermensche]

And you are disastrously wrong about that. These organizations do not share a command structure, they do not have the same goals, the same ideology or the same politics. Nor do they have the same vision for what a future Palestinian state would even look like; if you took away their single point of agreement on their antipathy for Israel, they would probably take to fighting amongst themselves inside of a week.

But they do share a common financing and basic goal.

You don't know what you're talking about, Fatah, Hamas, and Hezbollah are distinct groups that get their funding from different places. And Islamic Jihad isn't an organization.

The only explanation for your position is blind bigotry. You see them all as the same thing despite the facts.

 

[Barbarian]

Islamic Jihad isn't an organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_(disambiguation)

 

[Derec]

And Islamic Jihad isn't an organization.

Of course it is. Why do you think Palestinian Islamic Jihad is not an organization?

The only explanation for your position is blind bigotry. You see them all as the same thing despite the facts.

Says the man who thinks Hamas can do no wrong.

 

[untermensche]

Islamic Jihad isn't an organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_(disambiguation)

Well, which one was he talking about?

 

[untermensche]

Of course it is. Why do you think Palestinian Islamic Jihad is not an organization?

I do believe that is an organization. But that's not what he said.

The only explanation for your position is blind bigotry. You see them all as the same thing despite the facts.

Says the man who thinks Hamas can do no wrong.

All you have to do is find one quote of mine that even comes close to saying that.

I won't hold my breath.

I realize that Hamas is not very nice.

This is what decades of oppression and abuse produces. Once the oppression and abuse ends groups like this slowly fade away.

 

[Barbarian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_(disambiguation)

Well, which one was he talking about?

Don't start to pretend you meant "Islamic Jihad isn't just one organization, it's many different organizations". You did not know there was any organization with that name, and now you know.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The only explanation for your position is blind bigotry. You see them all as the same thing despite the facts.

Says the man who thinks Hamas can do no wrong.

The specific problems of Hamas -- and the Palestinians in general -- warrant very close scrutiny in the event that they are allowed to live in peace and stability in a nation of their own. A state of brutal warfare against a foreign aggressor who goes out of its way to undermine every social institution they have left is the wrong time and place to discuss sociopolitical reform.

 

[untermensche]

Well, which one was he talking about?

Don't start to pretend you meant "Islamic Jihad isn't just one organization, it's many different organizations". You did not know there was any organization with that name, and now you know.

No, you're wrong.

The person I was addressing has a habit of lumping all Muslims into the same group.

He can't see the difference between the nation of Egypt attacking Israel and Palestinians resisting oppression.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, which one was he talking about?

Don't start to pretend you meant "Islamic Jihad isn't just one organization, it's many different organizations". You did not know there was any organization with that name, and now you know.

Everybody's HEARD of Islamic Jihad. But mensche correctly points out that it is not an organization so much as it is an organizer. It's basically the Daily Kos of right wing militarism. To a certain extent, the various IJ groups and followers all collaborate and share information and funding Al Qaida actually works in more or less the same way.

The Muslim Brotherhood is actually the closest thing IJ has to a real organizational framework, but the relationship there is similar to the relationship between, say, Fox News and the Tea Party: they are politically and ideologically aligned, and they even share notes, but they don't plan anything together.

 

[Barbarian]

Don't start to pretend you meant "Islamic Jihad isn't just one organization, it's many different organizations". You did not know there was any organization with that name, and now you know.

No, you're wrong.

The person I was addressing has a habit of lumping all Muslims into the same group.

He can't see the difference between the nation of Egypt attacking Israel and Palestinians resisting oppression.

TBH I'm with him on this one. The Qur'an says "All true believers are brothers", also "The infidels are one nation". Muslims are first and foremost Muslims and only secondarily are they citizens of a given state.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No, you're wrong.

The person I was addressing has a habit of lumping all Muslims into the same group.

He can't see the difference between the nation of Egypt attacking Israel and Palestinians resisting oppression.

TBH I'm with him on this one. The Qur'an says "All true believers are brothers", also "The infidels are one nation". Muslims are first and foremost Muslims and only secondarily are they citizens of a given state.

I have to say, there's almost no way you could possibly hold this belief except by having little or no direct contact with actual Muslims.

 

[Barbarian]

TBH I'm with him on this one. The Qur'an says "All true believers are brothers", also "The infidels are one nation". Muslims are first and foremost Muslims and only secondarily are they citizens of a given state.

I have to say, there's almost no way you could possibly hold this belief except by having little or no direct contact with actual Muslims.

Sure. I'm out. Call me when you are ready to talk with me, not about me.

 

[untermensche]

No, you're wrong.

The person I was addressing has a habit of lumping all Muslims into the same group.

He can't see the difference between the nation of Egypt attacking Israel and Palestinians resisting oppression.

TBH I'm with him on this one. The Qur'an says "All true believers are brothers", also "The infidels are one nation". Muslims are first and foremost Muslims and only secondarily are they citizens of a given state.

So based on ten words you conclude that all Muslims are the same thing and there is no difference between a military attack and resistance to oppression.

I hate to break it to you but this is nothing but ignorant bigotry.

 

[Barbarian]

TBH I'm with him on this one. The Qur'an says "All true believers are brothers", also "The infidels are one nation". Muslims are first and foremost Muslims and only secondarily are they citizens of a given state.

So based on ten words you conclude that all Muslims are the same thing and there is no difference between a military attack and resistance to oppression.

That's not my habit.

I hate to break it to you but this is nothing but ignorant bigotry.

Trying to understand why someone disagrees with you would have been better, but labeling them as not worthy of arguing with is certainly easier.

 

[untermensche]

So based on ten words you conclude that all Muslims are the same thing and there is no difference between a military attack and resistance to oppression.

That's not my habit.

You quoted 10 words from the Koran and claimed it was evidence that all Muslims thought and acted alike and they all had the same goals. So a military attack ordered by a government is the exact same thing as people trying to throw off decades of oppression. They are both the same thing.

When Muslims are involved.

I hate to break it to you but this is nothing but ignorant bigotry.

Trying to understand why someone disagrees with you would have been better, but labeling them as not worthy of arguing with is certainly easier.

I haven't prevented you from trying to explain yourself, but the idea that all Muslims are alike because of 10 words in the Koran is ignorance.

 

[Togo]

So based on ten words you conclude that all Muslims are the same thing and there is no difference between a military attack and resistance to oppression.

That's not my habit.

I hate to break it to you but this is nothing but ignorant bigotry.

Trying to understand why someone disagrees with you would have been better, but labeling them as not worthy of arguing with is certainly easier.

Certainly, if you can explain how quoting ten words from a holy book demonstates the indivisibility of almost a quarter of the world's population spread across multiple cultures and continents, then I'd like to hear it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But they do share a common financing and basic goal.

You don't know what you're talking about, Fatah, Hamas, and Hezbollah are distinct groups that get their funding from different places. And Islamic Jihad isn't an organization.

The only explanation for your position is blind bigotry. You see them all as the same thing despite the facts.

Their primary funding is the Islamists. They money goes to whoever is ideologically closest to the donors and is attacking Israel. As one organization grows old and becomes less violent the money goes to the newer, more violent ones.

Think of it sort of like mercenaries (yes, it's not a very good analogy, don't try to stretch it too far.) You see the mercenaries and say they are different groups but it's really one paymaster. (Although it's actually a bunch of paymasters.)

- - - Updated - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_(disambiguation)

Well, which one was he talking about?

We are talking about Palestine. Of course I'm referring to the Palestinian branch. I have rarely seen the qualifiers used on the separate groups, the generic term refers to the local branch of whatever area is under discussion.

 

[untermensche]

You don't know what you're talking about, Fatah, Hamas, and Hezbollah are distinct groups that get their funding from different places. And Islamic Jihad isn't an organization.

The only explanation for your position is blind bigotry. You see them all as the same thing despite the facts.

Their primary funding is the Islamists. They money goes to whoever is ideologically closest to the donors and is attacking Israel. As one organization grows old and becomes less violent the money goes to the newer, more violent ones.

Think of it sort of like mercenaries (yes, it's not a very good analogy, don't try to stretch it too far.) You see the mercenaries and say they are different groups but it's really one paymaster. (Although it's actually a bunch of paymasters.)

The Islamists?

Are they part of the Marvel Universe?