What should Israel do?

[arkirk]

All your worries about Hamas destroying Israel with rockets...is just so much smoke out of your ass. Blowing up three U. N. schools/shelters with coordinates provided by the U.N. with "precision" ordinance is a crime against humanity...regardless of whether you consider Palestinian women and children and old people to be humans. Actually, members of Hamas are also humans fighting back the same way a cornered rat would fight...with anything and everything at their disposal. Let's see here...more than 1900 Palestinians dead and most of them civilians versus 2 Israeli civilians. Hamas actually has a higher percentage of its victims combattants (military personnel) than Israel. Come down off you high horse and see this for what it is...a criminal invasion and violation of Palestinian human rights and a crime against humanity...not just this one crime, but repeated crimes.

It is time to recognize who the victims are and quit letting Israel off the hook for things any other government less well armed would pay a heavy price. Loren and Derek have no idea of what it is like to live for 60+ years under occupation. They have not seen members of their own family bleeding to death in a hospital that is being smashed by bombs. They talk of these Palestinians as if they were some kind of rabid animals fit only to kill and divert the conversation from the human suffering to the technicalities of high and low tech missiles.

I am not hearing from them any suggestions as to a way of ending the suffering...just hackneyed Israeli propaganda. Offers from Hamas to make peace have been ignored by Netanyahu for years. Israel is mainly threatened by the growing understanding worldwide that Hamas has a legitimate existence. It was formed in the midst of Israeli military destruction of the homeland of its people. 60+ years of invasion, bombing, assassination of Palestinian leaders, propping up dictators like Mubarak in Egypt, closing borders, putting the Gazans on a "diet," and mowing Palestinians down like grass in front of a lawn mower...it is no wonder there is a resistance.

I for one feel that for peace to come to the region will entail a lot forgiveness on the part of Palestinians of Israeli atrocities. But that forgiveness will never take shape with continuing Israeli atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank. I don't buy anything Israeli and object strenuously to my government sending them weapons.

While I don't think the Israelis putting hard-liners like Netanyahu back in power is doing them any favors, some recognition must be given that this is also a reaction. But I'm not sure I buy the lawn mower analogy. Let's not forget that Hamas' stated goal is to rid the area of all Jews. Prior to that multiple cease-fire agreements have been ended by assassination attempts on Jewish diplomats and aggressive action by every one of Israel's neighbors by Palestinian proxy. Let's not forget that The Palestinian Nationalist movement sided with Hitler and the Axis powers in WW2 with the intention of expelling the Jews from the region.

The current situation is one born from reaction from both sides, and military victory largely from one side. If those events went the other way, I have no doubts that we would have been witness to real atrocities. Any lopsided nature to the current situation is only due to a lack of means IMO.

Forgiveness and recognition of humanity is needed from both sides here.

Hamas was born in the middle of another earlier Israeli atrocity. Their leadership has agreed repeatedly to recognize Israel in exchange for a fair settlement of hostilities. Being as there are thousands of Arabs living in Israeli territory, they have not agreed to the idea of a Jewish state. Israel is not ALL JEWS. It sharply curtails the rights of non Jews in lands seized from Palestinians in the late 40's.

With all the occupation and a continuing pattern of land grabbing in the west bank, what most people don't see is that there actually is nothing left to make into a state. It is the continued denial of Palestinian rights that is at the heart of Hamas' demands. All of this time for at least the last eight years, we have a people who cannot leave and are denied the right to make and sell things abroad, who are also totally at the mercy of Israel when it comes to food and water and power and just living. Israeli leaders have given Hamas cause after cause...with repeated invasion and bombing of civilian infrastructure. Gaza is so small, there are no open areas to fight a war in that would be anything but suicide for all of Hamas. The fear felt by Israelis is more the result of propaganda than reality. Hamas doing its worst killed two civilians. Israel killed more than a thousand. All this is happening on lands that were almost entirely Arab prior to 1948.

There is no way out around it. Israel proper was seized by a well financed army from the Arabs in '48. It has been working its way into what is left as it finds value, water, arable land, etc. with things called settlements. Palestinians alive today were not even remotely tied to the Nazis. At the time, they felt perhaps the Nazis would help them keep their land. This was not Hamas, but a Palestinian National Movement more than 70 years ago...back when our own South was segregated.

We somehow made a kind of peace with Germany a long time ago. Remember those guys with the extermination camps? Germany is not that Germany today. But Israel is still seizing Palestinian land and carving up Palestinian territory. They never stopped fighting WWII. They just slowed down. Israel is a rogue nation with a long list of human rights violations worse than Apartheid South Africa had. In my opinion, any country that holds nuclear weapons is a potential terrorist nation. Israel has those too. It's time to start calling this duck a duck.

 

[untermensche]

I agree. I think the key to this whole problem is the illegal settlements. They are the reason Israel maintains the status quo. They are the reason we know Israel is not serious about peace. They are a huge provocation.

I think it is clear. Israel intends to steal as much land as possible, at the same time deny the Palestinians their basic human right of self determination. And they will use disproportional force, even against children, for any complaint or resistance.

Despicable.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

All your worries about Hamas destroying Israel with rockets...is just so much smoke out of your ass. Blowing up three U. N. schools/shelters with coordinates provided by the U.N. with "precision" ordinance is a crime against humanity...regardless of whether you consider Palestinian women and children and old people to be humans. Actually, members of Hamas are also humans fighting back the same way a cornered rat would fight...with anything and everything at their disposal. Let's see here...more than 1900 Palestinians dead and most of them civilians versus 2 Israeli civilians. Hamas actually has a higher percentage of its victims combattants (military personnel) than Israel. Come down off you high horse and see this for what it is...a criminal invasion and violation of Palestinian human rights and a crime against humanity...not just this one crime, but repeated crimes.

It is time to recognize who the victims are and quit letting Israel off the hook for things any other government less well armed would pay a heavy price. Loren and Derek have no idea of what it is like to live for 60+ years under occupation. They have not seen members of their own family bleeding to death in a hospital that is being smashed by bombs. They talk of these Palestinians as if they were some kind of rabid animals fit only to kill and divert the conversation from the human suffering to the technicalities of high and low tech missiles.

I am not hearing from them any suggestions as to a way of ending the suffering...just hackneyed Israeli propaganda. Offers from Hamas to make peace have been ignored by Netanyahu for years. Israel is mainly threatened by the growing understanding worldwide that Hamas has a legitimate existence. It was formed in the midst of Israeli military destruction of the homeland of its people. 60+ years of invasion, bombing, assassination of Palestinian leaders, propping up dictators like Mubarak in Egypt, closing borders, putting the Gazans on a "diet," and mowing Palestinians down like grass in front of a lawn mower...it is no wonder there is a resistance.

I for one feel that for peace to come to the region will entail a lot forgiveness on the part of Palestinians of Israeli atrocities. But that forgiveness will never take shape with continuing Israeli atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank. I don't buy anything Israeli and object strenuously to my government sending them weapons.

While I don't think the Israelis putting hard-liners like Netanyahu back in power is doing them any favors, some recognition must be given that this is also a reaction.

Really? What was it the FIRST time they elected him?

But I'm not sure I buy the lawn mower analogy.

It's ISRAEL'S analogy, it's not something made up. If you believe Hamas 30 year old charter is still their basic operational plan, why do you NOT believe the Israelis when they compare Palestinian resistance to a troublesome garden that has to be tended from time

It is very clear from their respective statements that the current obstacle to peace is Israel's unwillingness to trust Hamas under any circumstances. Hamas no longer has a reciprocal position for Israel; they want the blockade lifted, and they are willing to accept those terms at face value in exchange for a long-term ceasefire (even after Israel has established a track record of completely ignoring such agreements in the past).

We somehow made a kind of peace with Germany a long time ago. Remember those guys with the extermination camps? Germany is not that Germany today.

For that matter we also got to see the end of Apartheid in south Africa without the triggering of a massive race war.

In that case, it took the Boer government responding favorably to the ANC's conciliatory gestures -- and not rejecting them out of hand as merely ruses or stalling tactics -- that lead to a peaceful resolution. Compare to a similar analogy today, where we have Hamas representatives in Cairo repeatedly offering terms they would accept but complaining about Israel "playing with words." This is a very clear reference to Israel's historic use of rhetoric and principles as ceasefire proposals and then blaming Hamas when those proposals fall flat.

Israel is a rogue nation with a long list of human rights violations worse than Apartheid South Africa had. In my opinion, any country that holds nuclear weapons is a potential terrorist nation. Israel has those too. It's time to start calling this duck a duck.

And ironically, more and more people are seeing that too.

 

[Deepak]

While I don't think the Israelis putting hard-liners like Netanyahu back in power is doing them any favors, some recognition must be given that this is also a reaction. But I'm not sure I buy the lawn mower analogy. Let's not forget that Hamas' stated goal is to rid the area of all Jews. Prior to that multiple cease-fire agreements have been ended by assassination attempts on Jewish diplomats and aggressive action by every one of Israel's neighbors by Palestinian proxy. Let's not forget that The Palestinian Nationalist movement sided with Hitler and the Axis powers in WW2 with the intention of expelling the Jews from the region.

The current situation is one born from reaction from both sides, and military victory largely from one side. If those events went the other way, I have no doubts that we would have been witness to real atrocities. Any lopsided nature to the current situation is only due to a lack of means IMO.

Forgiveness and recognition of humanity is needed from both sides here.

Hamas was born in the middle of another earlier Israeli atrocity. Their leadership has agreed repeatedly to recognize Israel in exchange for a fair settlement of hostilities. Being as there are thousands of Arabs living in Israeli territory, they have not agreed to the idea of a Jewish state. Israel is not ALL JEWS. It sharply curtails the rights of non Jews in lands seized from Palestinians in the late 40's.

With all the occupation and a continuing pattern of land grabbing in the west bank, what most people don't see is that there actually is nothing left to make into a state. It is the continued denial of Palestinian rights that is at the heart of Hamas' demands. All of this time for at least the last eight years, we have a people who cannot leave and are denied the right to make and sell things abroad, who are also totally at the mercy of Israel when it comes to food and water and power and just living. Israeli leaders have given Hamas cause after cause...with repeated invasion and bombing of civilian infrastructure. Gaza is so small, there are no open areas to fight a war in that would be anything but suicide for all of Hamas. The fear felt by Israelis is more the result of propaganda than reality. Hamas doing its worst killed two civilians. Israel killed more than a thousand. All this is happening on lands that were almost entirely Arab prior to 1948.

There is no way out around it. Israel proper was seized by a well financed army from the Arabs in '48. It has been working its way into what is left as it finds value, water, arable land, etc. with things called settlements. Palestinians alive today were not even remotely tied to the Nazis. At the time, they felt perhaps the Nazis would help them keep their land. This was not Hamas, but a Palestinian National Movement more than 70 years ago...back when our own South was segregated.

We somehow made a kind of peace with Germany a long time ago. Remember those guys with the extermination camps? Germany is not that Germany today. But Israel is still seizing Palestinian land and carving up Palestinian territory. They never stopped fighting WWII. They just slowed down. Israel is a rogue nation with a long list of human rights violations worse than Apartheid South Africa had. In my opinion, any country that holds nuclear weapons is a potential terrorist nation. Israel has those too. It's time to start calling this duck a duck.

This is a whitewashing of history, and we didn't make peace with Nazi Germany. Both Arab and Jewish populations existed in the area during the time of the Ottoman empire. Following the expulsion of the Sultan, while the region was being administered by the British, a peaceful agreement was signed to establish a national home for Jews in the area which was to encourage Jewish emigres to establish a home there. Chaim Weizmann and King Faisal, who to that point enjoyed the support of regional Arabs, both agreed to the arrangement. Following that, and because of the deteriorating situation in Europe, many Jews started to purchase from Arab landowners and move into the area. Many of the Arabs who put their stock in Faisal felt disillusioned and his power base eroded. Not long after the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem became the leader who the Palestinian Arabs supported, and he started to foment religious divisions in the area - leading to a series of riots over the next decade. Subsequently, and concurrently with the Holocaust, a two-state solution was proposed which the Jewish leadership accepted but the Arab leadership rejected. Instead a one-state solution was was put into place which let the Arabs put strict quotas on immigration as the home fires burned in Nazi Germany. Because of the European situation, the Jewish leadership at the time arranged for a couple of waves of illegal immigration to the region which inflamed the Arab-Jewish tensions in the region. This led to the Arabs arranging an agreement with Hitler to support the Axis powers in exchange for the removal of Jews from the area - people who through birth or commerce had just as much right to the land as the Arab population.

Of course being on the losing side of a war against the British, their wishes were no longer taken into account in '48 and because of the tensions in the region a two state solution was put into place. This story about land being stolen is a falsity, and the reality is that the Arabs were put out by some Ashkenazis who didn't have the kind decency to get gassed.

Following the '48 partition the Palestinians conducted a decades long series of attacks with the support of Jordan and Egypt.

Israel has made peace with both countries as we have with Germany. And our peace was not established because the German extermination camps, while still running, ceased to be effective due to cheap weather stripping.

Forgetting the genesis of the situation, I think we can all agree that events over the past 50 years have basically been a horrific version the 'he started it' game - certainly the Intifadas did not occur in a vacuum, but let's not kid ourselves and forget the attacks on random citizens, diplomats both home and abroad, and suicide bombings also contributed to the current state of brinksmanship. Claiming to be ready to negotiate while also launching rockets at the other side and having a charter that says they want to remove all Jews from the region is a bit schizo in my opinion. How difficult would it be to amend their charter? If the rocket attacks are so ineffective, why not stop them in a show of good faith? Certainly this would do much to erode support for Israeli hardliners, no? The majority opinion in Israel is in favor of a two-state solution, and they don't want to occupy Palestinian lands.

Everybody involved would do well to heed the warning about fighting monsters.

 

[Deepak]

While I don't think the Israelis putting hard-liners like Netanyahu back in power is doing them any favors, some recognition must be given that this is also a reaction.

Really? What was it the FIRST time they elected him?

Jewish bloodlust?

 

[arkirk]

Really? What was it the FIRST time they elected him?

Jewish bloodlust?

With all of this throwing of accusations I find most of those of Netanyahu to be nothing but a bunch of characterization of Palestinian intentions he cannot possibly know. He and his high handed mischaracterization of the minds of all Palestinians is a major stumbling block that keeps honest peace negotiations from happening. He never allows them to say anything that actually might be on their minds. He is at war with them and they clearly are not capable of fighting back in a meaningful way to bring him to the table. Someone else must tell him. Most of the world and the U.N. have politely begged him...yet his bombast against Hamas is unrelenting.

I am not saying Hamas' hands are lily clean. I am saying there are dirtier hands in the neighborhood.

 

[untermensche]

Following the '48 partition the Palestinians conducted a decades long series of attacks with the support of Jordan and Egypt.

You mean the reaction of Palestinians to the ethnic cleansing conducted by Israel and the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes?

 

[Deepak]

Jewish bloodlust?

With all of this throwing of accusations I find most of those of Netanyahu to be nothing but a bunch of characterization of Palestinian intentions he cannot possibly know. He and his high handed mischaracterization of the minds of all Palestinians is a major stumbling block that keeps honest peace negotiations from happening. He never allows them to say anything that actually might be on their minds. He is at war with them and they clearly are not capable of fighting back in a meaningful way to bring him to the table. Someone else must tell him. Most of the world and the U.N. have politely begged him...yet his bombast against Hamas is unrelenting.

I am not saying Hamas' hands are lily clean. I am saying there are dirtier hands in the neighborhood.

Dirty hands are dirty hands, and I have no love for Netanyahu - I think he's been the biggest impediment to peace in latter years. It's also obvious that both times, though, that he ran on a platform of security and that attacks on Jewish civilians was the key driver in his ability to get into power.

Following the '48 partition the Palestinians conducted a decades long series of attacks with the support of Jordan and Egypt.

You mean the reaction of Palestinians to the ethnic cleansing conducted by Israel and the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes?

And similar numbers of Jews were expelled from Muslim countries. It's pretty clear to me that things were too far gone for a one-state solution at this point.

How do you think things would have turned out if the Axis powers won WW2? What outcome do you think was possible at this point other than a two-state scenario, and how would you have implemented it?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All your worries about Hamas destroying Israel with rockets...is just so much smoke out of your ass. Blowing up three U. N. schools/shelters with coordinates provided by the U.N. with "precision" ordinance is a crime against humanity...regardless of whether you consider Palestinian women and children and old people to be humans. Actually, members of Hamas are also humans fighting back the same way a cornered rat would fight...with anything and everything at their disposal. Let's see here...more than 1900 Palestinians dead and most of them civilians versus 2 Israeli civilians. Hamas actually has a higher percentage of its victims combattants (military personnel) than Israel. Come down off you high horse and see this for what it is...a criminal invasion and violation of Palestinian human rights and a crime against humanity...not just this one crime, but repeated crimes.

The war crime is Hamas using those protected targets as cover, not Israel hitting military targets that purport to be non-combatant.

It is time to recognize who the victims are and quit letting Israel off the hook for things any other government less well armed would pay a heavy price. Loren and Derek have no idea of what it is like to live for 60+ years under occupation. They have not seen members of their own family bleeding to death in a hospital that is being smashed by bombs. They talk of these Palestinians as if they were some kind of rabid animals fit only to kill and divert the conversation from the human suffering to the technicalities of high and low tech missiles.

Hamas is basically a rabid animal. The Palestinians are their victims.

I am not hearing from them any suggestions as to a way of ending the suffering...just hackneyed Israeli propaganda.

Because the real issue is the Islamists, not the Palestinians. We recognize that a bad plan is worse than no plan--and all we see are bad plans.

I for one feel that for peace to come to the region will entail a lot forgiveness on the part of Palestinians of Israeli atrocities. But that forgiveness will never take shape with continuing Israeli atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank. I don't buy anything Israeli and object strenuously to my government sending them weapons.

And you can feel the moon is made of green cheese. Doesn't mean you sent up an Apollo capsule with no food on board.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Really? What was it the FIRST time they elected him?

Jewish bloodlust?

it's better to say Zionist rather than Jewish.

 

[untermensche]

Following the '48 partition the Palestinians conducted a decades long series of attacks with the support of Jordan and Egypt.

You mean the reaction of Palestinians to the ethnic cleansing conducted by Israel and the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes?

And similar numbers of Jews were expelled from Muslim countries. It's pretty clear to me that things were too far gone for a one-state solution at this point.

How are you justifying the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel?

It's justified because some other people who aren't Palestinians kicked out some Jews? The two wrongs make a right argument is not very valid.

The Palestinians had valid grievances against Israel. And instead of addressing them Israel has conducted a 50 year brutal occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.

How do you think things would have turned out if the Axis powers won WW2? What outcome do you think was possible at this point other than a two-state scenario, and how would you have implemented it?

This is frivolous.

The issue is decades of Israeli oppression of millions.

 

[Deepak]

Following the '48 partition the Palestinians conducted a decades long series of attacks with the support of Jordan and Egypt.

You mean the reaction of Palestinians to the ethnic cleansing conducted by Israel and the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes?

And similar numbers of Jews were expelled from Muslim countries. It's pretty clear to me that things were too far gone for a one-state solution at this point.

How are you justifying the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel?

It's justified because some other people who aren't Palestinians kicked out some Jews? The two wrongs make a right argument is not very valid.

The Palestinians had valid grievances against Israel. And instead of addressing them Israel has conducted a 50 year brutal occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.

How do you think things would have turned out if the Axis powers won WW2? What outcome do you think was possible at this point other than a two-state scenario, and how would you have implemented it?

This is frivolous.

The issue is decades of Israeli oppression of millions.

Frivolous? From 1920 until World War 2 multiple violent riots against the Jews. During World War 2 they quite literally sided with someone who was committed to Jewish genocide, with the express agreement that their support was in exchange for ridding the region of Jews. The time for Faisal-Weizmann had long passed, and both sides had valid grievances.

So do tell? How would you have resolved this situation?

 

[untermensche]

Frivolous? From 1920 until World War 2 multiple violent riots against the Jews. During World War 2 they quite literally sided with someone who was committed to Jewish genocide, with the express agreement that their support was in exchange for ridding the region of Jews. The time for Faisal-Weizmann had long passed, and both sides had valid grievances.

Any scenario that beings with; And what if the Nazi's had won WWII, is frivolous.

So do tell? How would you have resolved this situation?

You have to pull the matter into the UN. You have to first of all get from Israel their map of the solution. Then get a map from the Palestinian side. It might be necessary to first carry out another election on the Palestinian side.

And from the two maps you work out a compromise.

One of the key things the Palestinians need is a strong infrastructure. A strong and experienced police force. A strong judicial system. An ability to protect people from violent gangs and to stop these gangs from carrying out acts of random violence.

You can't say to Hamas, in the chaos that is Gaza, we expect total control of all persons. That is not realistic. So the initial goal will be to rebuild the Palestinian cities and to free up it's economy.

All of this requires the cooperation of the US. But the US is a supporter of Israel, not an impartial judge, and the US should have no special role.

 

[Deepak]

Any scenario that beings with; And what if the Nazi's had won WWII, is frivolous.

So do tell? How would you have resolved this situation?

You have to pull the matter into the UN. You have to first of all get from Israel their map of the solution. Then get a map from the Palestinian side. It might be necessary to first carry out another election on the Palestinian side.

And from the two maps you work out a compromise.

One of the key things the Palestinians need is a strong infrastructure. A strong and experienced police force. A strong judicial system. An ability to protect people from violent gangs and to stop these gangs from carrying out acts of random violence.

You can't say to Hamas, in the chaos that is Gaza, we expect total control of all persons. That is not realistic. So the initial goal will be to rebuild the Palestinian cities and to free up it's economy.

All of this requires the cooperation of the US. But the US is a supporter of Israel, not an impartial judge, and the US should have no special role.

We're not talking about some hypothetical scenario involving life in America during the 2020s had the Nazis won. The timeframe we're talking about here is immediately after WW2 was fought where the regional Arabs, who were taking aggressive action against the regional Jews, having signed an alliance with Nazi Germany who were taking aggressive action against Great Britain specifically and the Allied countries generally.

The matter of partition was put in front of the UN, and partition proposals taking into consideration land ownership and existing population were drawn up. The Arab leaders reject any sort of partition plan, and I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to track down commentary from their side about the matter of a Jewish state existing. The proposal where Arabs maintained complete control of the region, quite obviously, was an untenable one and the eventual partition plan recommended by the newly formed UN passed by a large majority.

The US supported it, since they're quite obviously puppets of the Jewish conspiracy, but so did most of the Eastern Bloc, Western Europe, and Latin America. Of the permanent Security Council members the UK and RoC voted against the measure.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Following the '48 partition the Palestinians conducted a decades long series of attacks with the support of Jordan and Egypt.

You mean the reaction of Palestinians to the ethnic cleansing conducted by Israel and the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes?

And similar numbers of Jews were expelled from Muslim countries. It's pretty clear to me that things were too far gone for a one-state solution at this point.

How are you justifying the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel?

It cuts both ways. How do you justify the far more aggressive ethnic cleansing of the Jews?

It's justified because some other people who aren't Palestinians kicked out some Jews? The two wrongs make a right argument is not very valid.

The forces behind the attack on Israel were the same forces that did that ethnic cleansing.

The Palestinians had valid grievances against Israel. And instead of addressing them Israel has conducted a 50 year brutal occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.

Even if their grievances are valid their answer is not.

 

[Arctish]

Any scenario that beings with; And what if the Nazi's had won WWII, is frivolous.

You have to pull the matter into the UN. You have to first of all get from Israel their map of the solution. Then get a map from the Palestinian side. It might be necessary to first carry out another election on the Palestinian side.

And from the two maps you work out a compromise.

One of the key things the Palestinians need is a strong infrastructure. A strong and experienced police force. A strong judicial system. An ability to protect people from violent gangs and to stop these gangs from carrying out acts of random violence.

You can't say to Hamas, in the chaos that is Gaza, we expect total control of all persons. That is not realistic. So the initial goal will be to rebuild the Palestinian cities and to free up it's economy.

All of this requires the cooperation of the US. But the US is a supporter of Israel, not an impartial judge, and the US should have no special role.

We're not talking about some hypothetical scenario involving life in America during the 2020s had the Nazis won. The timeframe we're talking about here is immediately after WW2 was fought where the regional Arabs, who were taking aggressive action against the regional Jews, having signed an alliance with Nazi Germany who were taking aggressive action against Great Britain specifically and the Allied countries generally.

The matter of partition was put in front of the UN, and partition proposals taking into consideration land ownership and existing population were drawn up. The Arab leaders reject any sort of partition plan, and I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to track down commentary from their side about the matter of a Jewish state existing. The proposal where Arabs maintained complete control of the region, quite obviously, was an untenable one and the eventual partition plan recommended by the newly formed UN passed by a large majority.

The US supported it, since they're quite obviously puppets of the Jewish conspiracy, but so did most of the Eastern Bloc, Western Europe, and Latin America. Of the permanent Security Council members the UK and RoC voted against the measure.

If we're going to explore the question "What if Nazi Germany won WWII and seized control of the Middle East?" we have to do 2 things.

1. Start a new thread in the appropriate forum

2. Decide if in this imaginary scenario the Zionist terrorist group Lehi (the Stern Gang) was successful in it's negotiations with the Nazis. Did the Nazis accept the Zionist offer to help them fight the British in exchange for Jewish Germans to help the Zionists fight the Arabs?

 

[Deepak]

We're not talking about some hypothetical scenario involving life in America during the 2020s had the Nazis won. The timeframe we're talking about here is immediately after WW2 was fought where the regional Arabs, who were taking aggressive action against the regional Jews, having signed an alliance with Nazi Germany who were taking aggressive action against Great Britain specifically and the Allied countries generally.

The matter of partition was put in front of the UN, and partition proposals taking into consideration land ownership and existing population were drawn up. The Arab leaders reject any sort of partition plan, and I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to track down commentary from their side about the matter of a Jewish state existing. The proposal where Arabs maintained complete control of the region, quite obviously, was an untenable one and the eventual partition plan recommended by the newly formed UN passed by a large majority.

The US supported it, since they're quite obviously puppets of the Jewish conspiracy, but so did most of the Eastern Bloc, Western Europe, and Latin America. Of the permanent Security Council members the UK and RoC voted against the measure.

If we're going to explore the question "What if Nazi Germany won WWII and seized control of the Middle East?" we have to do 2 things.

1. Start a new thread in the appropriate forum

2. Decide if in this imaginary scenario the Zionist terrorist group Lehi (the Stern Gang) was successful in it's negotiations with the Nazis. Did the Nazis accept the Zionist offer to help them fight the British in exchange for Jewish Germans to help the Zionists fight the Arabs?

The question was clearly a rhetorical one, and not an attempt to explore a hypothetical scenario.

Lehi neither enjoyed popular support, nor did they successfully make such an alliance - both of their attempts were rebuffed. In fact their intention was to get the British out of the region and not Arabs specifically, though they did intend to establish a Jewish state. This, I would think is the exploration of a hypothetical scenario and deserving of its own thread.

The Arab leadership had signed such an agreement, and also stated their intention for doing so - the purpose of the statement was to point out that neither side was free of grievances.

Do feel free to make such a thread if you think there's an actual discussion to be had there. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for it.

 

[untermensche]

Following the '48 partition the Palestinians conducted a decades long series of attacks with the support of Jordan and Egypt.

You mean the reaction of Palestinians to the ethnic cleansing conducted by Israel and the expulsion of 700,000 people from their homes?

And similar numbers of Jews were expelled from Muslim countries. It's pretty clear to me that things were too far gone for a one-state solution at this point.

How are you justifying the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel?

It cuts both ways. How do you justify the far more aggressive ethnic cleansing of the Jews?

That doesn't justify the ethnic cleansing of one Palestinian. Any Jew that was thrown out of their home deserves compensation just as the Palestinians thrown from their homes or prevented from returning to them deserve compensation. Instead they have been given decades of misery.

It's justified because some other people who aren't Palestinians kicked out some Jews? The two wrongs make a right argument is not very valid.

The forces behind the attack on Israel were the same forces that did that ethnic cleansing.

The forces behind the attacks and behind the ethnic cleansing of Jews were not the Palestinians.

The Palestinians had valid grievances against Israel. And instead of addressing them Israel has conducted a 50 year brutal occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.

Even if their grievances are valid their answer is not.

Israeli oppression has been answered with incredible restraint by the Palestinians. The Israelis deserve far more for their decades of crimes.

 

[arkirk]

If we're going to explore the question "What if Nazi Germany won WWII and seized control of the Middle East?" we have to do 2 things.

1. Start a new thread in the appropriate forum

2. Decide if in this imaginary scenario the Zionist terrorist group Lehi (the Stern Gang) was successful in it's negotiations with the Nazis. Did the Nazis accept the Zionist offer to help them fight the British in exchange for Jewish Germans to help the Zionists fight the Arabs?

The question was clearly a rhetorical one, and not an attempt to explore a hypothetical scenario.

Lehi neither enjoyed popular support, nor did they successfully make such an alliance - both of their attempts were rebuffed. In fact their intention was to get the British out of the region and not Arabs specifically, though they did intend to establish a Jewish state. This, I would think is the exploration of a hypothetical scenario and deserving of its own thread.

The Arab leadership had signed such an agreement, and also stated their intention for doing so - the purpose of the statement was to point out that neither side was free of grievances.

Do feel free to make such a thread if you think there's an actual discussion to be had there. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for it.

Sort of a "the sins of the fathers" idea, I take it. The average person living in that occupied jungle was born into it and it has nothing whatever to do with the deplorable conditions on the ground today. It is today and tomorrow that this thread should dealing. Hundreds of thousands of people are living in cramped quarters without proper sanitation and drinkable water. There is a time to deal with this and it is now. Either we are interested in human welfare or we are not. Which is it?

For civilization to occur, we have to put away our differences. Humans seem stuck in the past and this will come back to haunt us when some plague sweeps through the area. Of course there ARE those who really don't give a damn and I suppose they have freedom of speech. When civil society is systematically destroyed by design, that design must be ultimately undone and then we can begin to start talking in terms of the things that count to real people like sanitation, health, housing, food, and medical services...not to mention the right to trade and to make a living. These human capacities have been denied to the Gaza residents for far too long. What somebody's grandfather said in the midst of calamity is perhaps interesting, but not what is important at this time.

Long before now, there should have been a U.N. peacekeeping force in all of Israel and also an inspection team looking into Israel's nuclear bomb making. We have instead allowed Israeli and Zionist sympathizers to bluster their way out of compliance with U. N. resolutions. I can only suspect that U.S. companies such as Raytheon have enjoyed a cash cow with Israel and they are still not willing to give it up. To them, profit comes before humanity.

They should feel lucky if they escape prosecution if and when this whole pile of hot shit finally cools down. The world will indeed be lucky if it can cool down without nuclear war residue. We need to stop this mad mutual condemnation which is nothing but a Kabuki production to keep certain people in power. No man's grip on power is as important as peace at this time. It is hard for many of us to see this because it isn't happening here, even though we are seeing things more and more like it in Missouri.

We must understand that we cannot long endure as a security state where everybody mistrusts everybody else.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The forces behind the attack on Israel were the same forces that did that ethnic cleansing.

The forces behind the attacks and behind the ethnic cleansing of Jews were not the Palestinians.

But every force that has attacked Israel has been Arab allies of each other.

Even if their grievances are valid their answer is not.

Israeli oppression has been answered with incredible restraint by the Palestinians. The Israelis deserve far more for their decades of crimes.

Yeah, you're out to bash Israel rather than to solve the problem.