What should the endgame be with regards to Islam?

[AthenaAwakened]

A lot of people here have a lot of opinions about Muslims, Islamists, and anyone who prays to Allah, all those opinions negative

So what to do? If Muslims are a problem, what to do about it?

 

[Jayjay]

As with Christianity, we make them our bitches.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Communication without integration. Based on the fact there are more rational than irrational people in the world (we're still here), it would seem to me if we talk to each other well prior to living next door to one another, we would gain a better understanding and empathy for one another.
Maybe we just need to sniff each others butts a little longer.

 

[Axulus]

A lot of people here have a lot of opinions about Muslims, Islamists, and anyone who prays to Allah, all those opinions negative

So what to do? If Muslims are a problem, what to do about it?

About the only thing that can happen: let them become disillusioned with militant/fundamentalist Islam - let it fail miserably so that they realize that the utopia envisioned is a lie. The only way to let it fail miserably is to not interfere because then they will otherwise blame us for the failure (even if we don't interfere, many will still claim we interfered). Much suffering by innocents will happen as a result as they attempt to destroy each other, it will take much suffering indeed for the lie to be realized. On the scale of the failure and suffering inflicted by communism. This is very unfortunate, but necessary. Few groups with power these days are seriously fighting to implement communism these days as a result of the past abysmal failures (a few states in the world excepted). We can provide some humanitarian relief, such as funding and supporting refugee camps. We should do nothing beyond that.

It reminds me of a stubborn small child. No matter how much you tell them not touch the hot oven, some of them are going to touch it anyway and can only learn never to touch it again after the damage is done to their hand. Similarly, there are simply too many adults who are just far too stupid to be able to learn with any other method, except the hot oven is their political or religious ideology.

By the way, I noticed that you are up to your usual strawmen. Muslims aren't the problem, fundamentalist/militant Islam is the problem, and you know the distinction yet you distort to smear your opponents. You must really view your political opponents as the enemy and sub-human to treat them this way. I notice a similar pattern in how you treat conservatives.

 

[Axulus]

Case in point of how retarded the human race is: threats to Muslim or Arab Americans have increased quite a bit after the retarded portion of the US population viewed American Sniper. This segment of the population is so stupid they can't understand that guilt by association is on obvious logical fallacy, a fallacy that is responsible for pretty much every instance of oppression against a minority and/or genocide against a minority throughout history. And this is in a first world society with quality education. Imagine what it must be like in a third world society with shitty education. The only way to contain these type of people is to keep them at bay with overwhelming force or let themselves get burned by the oven when such overwhelming force is unavailable. In the case of the US, we have overwhelming force to keep them at bay (the vast majority of us who don't hold such views). In the case of ISIS, the only way to contain them is to let them get burned by the oven. The misery in their society will create the conditions for their own downfall. It may take some time, but it will collapse due to its own severe internal dysfunction.

 

[barbos]

Axulus, I thought about that too. But how far are you willing to let it go?
Are you willing to buy oil from ISIS controlled Iraq and Saudi Arabia?
Will you help Israel? what if Turkey falls to ISIS? extremely unlikely but hypothetically possible.
Are you going to send Syrian refugees back to ISIS to certain death?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

A lot of people here have a lot of opinions about Muslims, Islamists, and anyone who prays to Allah, all those opinions negative

So what to do? If Muslims are a problem, what to do about it?

About the only thing that can happen: let them become disillusioned with militant/fundamentalist Islam - let it fail miserably so that they realize that the utopia envisioned is a lie. The only way to let it fail miserably is to not interfere because then they will otherwise blame us for the failure (even if we don't interfere, many will still claim we interfered). Much suffering by innocents will happen as a result as they attempt to destroy each other, it will take much suffering indeed for the lie to be realized. On the scale of the failure and suffering inflicted by communism. This is very unfortunate, but necessary. Few groups with power these days are seriously fighting to implement communism these days as a result of the past abysmal failures (a few states in the world excepted). We can provide some humanitarian relief, such as funding and supporting refugee camps. We should do nothing beyond that.

It reminds me of a stubborn small child. No matter how much you tell them not touch the hot oven, some of them are going to touch it anyway and can only learn never to touch it again after the damage is done to their hand. Similarly, there are simply too many adults who are just far too stupid to be able to learn with any other method, except the hot oven is their political or religious ideology.

By the way, I noticed that you are up to your usual strawmen. Muslims aren't the problem, fundamentalist/militant Islam is the problem, and you know the distinction yet you distort to smear your opponents. You must really view your political opponents as the enemy and sub-human to treat them this way. I notice a similar pattern in how you treat conservatives.

How will it fail? We are talking about people who are living for an afterlife in paradise. By what rubric will this failure be measured?

 

[Axulus]

About the only thing that can happen: let them become disillusioned with militant/fundamentalist Islam - let it fail miserably so that they realize that the utopia envisioned is a lie. The only way to let it fail miserably is to not interfere because then they will otherwise blame us for the failure (even if we don't interfere, many will still claim we interfered). Much suffering by innocents will happen as a result as they attempt to destroy each other, it will take much suffering indeed for the lie to be realized. On the scale of the failure and suffering inflicted by communism. This is very unfortunate, but necessary. Few groups with power these days are seriously fighting to implement communism these days as a result of the past abysmal failures (a few states in the world excepted). We can provide some humanitarian relief, such as funding and supporting refugee camps. We should do nothing beyond that.

It reminds me of a stubborn small child. No matter how much you tell them not touch the hot oven, some of them are going to touch it anyway and can only learn never to touch it again after the damage is done to their hand. Similarly, there are simply too many adults who are just far too stupid to be able to learn with any other method, except the hot oven is their political or religious ideology.

By the way, I noticed that you are up to your usual strawmen. Muslims aren't the problem, fundamentalist/militant Islam is the problem, and you know the distinction yet you distort to smear your opponents. You must really view your political opponents as the enemy and sub-human to treat them this way. I notice a similar pattern in how you treat conservatives.

How will it fail? We are talking about people who are living for an afterlife in paradise. By what rubric will this failure be measured?

It will be miserable to live in such society. It will perform abysmally economically. The quality of life will be poor. Those who initially supported the society will realize what was promised to them was a flat out lie. The society will collapse from the inside as the people turn against it. Being defeated from the outside allows the lie to persist, the outside defeat can always be blamed for the failure, and some will attempt to keep the "deam" alive by trying again.

In some situations, the lie can persist or those who would otherwise turn against it are controlled by fear. North Korea is one such example. We can only hope that ISIS doesn't last anywhere near as long. We must lead by example and provide humanitarian relief as possible to contain the suffering in the interim.

There is no question that our past actions may have lead some to embrace the lie. Some will say that we have a moral responsibility to make it right as a result. The only way we can make it right is to slowly build back trust and let the lie expose itself based on its own shortcomings.

 

[Axulus]

Axulus, I thought about that too. But how far are you willing to let it go?
Are you willing to buy oil from ISIS controlled Iraq and Saudi Arabia?
Will you help Israel? what if Turkey falls to ISIS? extremely unlikely but hypothetically possible.
Are you going to send Syrian refugees back to ISIS to certain death?

What if they blame us for economic sabotage? The lie will persist and the failures of the society will be blamed on the economic sabotage as opposed to its own internal shortcomings. However, neither to we have to do business with them. We have a right to refuse to do business with an untrustworthy party who settles its differences with violence.

We give Israel an ultimatum - make peace with your neighbors or get cut off. We will support you in your peace efforts and come to your aid if there is unprovoked aggression against your territory. We will continue to engage in efforts to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon (due to the nuclear proliferation all throughout the middle east that is very likely to result otherwise). However, we will not support you in stalling the peace efforts with your neighbors and the Palestinians any longer.

Turkey, we will come to your defensive aid should you request it. We will help you prevent any of your territory from being crossed by militants.

Syrian refugees - we will financially support the refugee camps and work with Syria's neighbors for permanent relocation efforts to the best of our ability.

 

[Tammuz]

A lot of people here have a lot of opinions about Muslims, Islamists, and anyone who prays to Allah, all those opinions negative

So what to do? If Muslims are a problem, what to do about it?

About the only thing that can happen: let them become disillusioned with militant/fundamentalist Islam - let it fail miserably so that they realize that the utopia envisioned is a lie. The only way to let it fail miserably is to not interfere because then they will otherwise blame us for the failure (even if we don't interfere, many will still claim we interfered). Much suffering by innocents will happen as a result as they attempt to destroy each other, it will take much suffering indeed for the lie to be realized. On the scale of the failure and suffering inflicted by communism. This is very unfortunate, but necessary. Few groups with power these days are seriously fighting to implement communism these days as a result of the past abysmal failures (a few states in the world excepted). We can provide some humanitarian relief, such as funding and supporting refugee camps. We should do nothing beyond that.

It reminds me of a stubborn small child. No matter how much you tell them not touch the hot oven, some of them are going to touch it anyway and can only learn never to touch it again after the damage is done to their hand. Similarly, there are simply too many adults who are just far too stupid to be able to learn with any other method, except the hot oven is their political or religious ideology.

By the way, I noticed that you are up to your usual strawmen. Muslims aren't the problem, fundamentalist/militant Islam is the problem, and you know the distinction yet you distort to smear your opponents. You must really view your political opponents as the enemy and sub-human to treat them this way. I notice a similar pattern in how you treat conservatives.

Isn't this sort of what happened to Iran, though in a less cruel fashion than you wrote? The Economist had an interesting special report on Iran a while ago:

The revolution is over

Arguably, there is a third phase to a revolution: the struggle for acceptance. Once power is secure, revolutionaries often seek recognition by strong outsiders. In a globalised world, that means engaging with the great trading countries. Children of Iranian revolutionaries have long followed this path. Privilege for them equals access to Western education and Asian consumer markets. Even hardliners allow their children to jet around the world. The offspring of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who led the revolution, have flocked to Instagram and embrace Western mores. Seven of his 15 grandchildren have openly criticised the regime. Many of the students who took American diplomats hostage 35 years ago have become reformists and wish to see closer ties with the West. Ebrahim Asgharzadeh, who was one of their spokesmen and then served on Tehran’s city council, now says: “I no longer take radical actions and I believe gradual reforms last longer than radical change.”

The appetite for revolution has waned on all sides. Reformists are tired after their failed attempt in 2009 to push aside a government they considered illegitimate because the vote was rigged. Protests were put down bloodily, reminding many of the unhappy years after the revolution. Since then, reformists have recoiled at political bloodshed in neighbouring countries. Conservatives, for their part, have come to see revolution as a threat to their interests abroad; regimes they fostered in Iraq and Syria are fighting rebellions not unlike Iran’s home-grown one in 1979. “The Arab spring fallout has scared everyone,” says a Western diplomat in Tehran. “Iran is now a bastion of stability. The question of the validity of the regime has been settled.”

Religion: Take it or leave it

Iran is the modern world’s first and only constitutional theocracy. It is also one of the least religious countries in the Middle East. Islam plays a smaller role in public life today than it did a decade ago. The daughter of a high cleric contends that “religious belief is mostly gone. Faith has been replaced by disgust.” Whereas secular Arab leaders suppressed Islam for decades and thus created a rallying point for political grievances, in Iran the opposite happened.

The transformation of Shia Islam into an ideology undermined both the state and the mosque. The great irony of the Islamic revolution is that inadvertently it did more to secularise the country than the tyrannical shah, who ruled Iran after a coup in 1953 and persecuted clerics. By forcing religion on people it poisoned worship for many. They are sick of being preached at and have stopped listening.

 

[barbos]

Axulus, I thought about that too. But how far are you willing to let it go?
Are you willing to buy oil from ISIS controlled Iraq and Saudi Arabia?
Will you help Israel? what if Turkey falls to ISIS? extremely unlikely but hypothetically possible.
Are you going to send Syrian refugees back to ISIS to certain death?

What if they blame us for economic sabotage? The lie will persist and the failures of the society will be blamed on the economic sabotage as opposed to its own internal shortcomings. However, neither to we have to do business with them. We have a right to refuse to do business with an untrustworthy party who settles its differences with violence.

We give Israel an ultimatum - make peace with your neighbors or get cut off. We will support you in your peace efforts and come to your aid if there is unprovoked aggression against your territory. We will continue to engage in efforts to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon (due to the nuclear proliferation all throughout the middle east that is very likely to result otherwise). However, we will not support you in stalling the peace efforts with your neighbors and the Palestinians any longer.

Turkey, we will come to your defensive aid should you request it. We will help you prevent any of your territory from being crossed by militants.

Syrian refugees - we will financially support the refugee camps and work with Syria's neighbors for permanent relocation efforts to the best of our ability.

Looks like you are not letting go too much.
And you are really limiting the scope of your Islamic ghetto experiment to ISIS only, not the whole islamic world.
I think islam pretty much impossible to civilize. So any good endgame outcome should involve abandoning this religion completely. Yes I know, christianity was morphed into more less benign disorder, but it took centuries, and christianity did not have such a horrible "genetics" as islam where their prophet, let's be frank here, was a power grabbing asshole and criminal.

 

[dismal]

A lot of people here have a lot of opinions about Muslims, Islamists, and anyone who prays to Allah, all those opinions negative

So what to do? If Muslims are a problem, what to do about it?

I really don't give a crap if someone wants to worship a ham sandwich as long as they don't attempt to export it onto me by force or law.

 

[Perspicuo]

After reading S.Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why violence has declined, I'd say the best thing to do is:

• Improve literacy and reading.
• In the meantime, be patient, resist violence with law enforcement (just the right amount of force to bring wrongdoers to justice).
• In addition, I'd recommend European countries to not let more Arab Muslims (i.e. people who are both Arab and Muslim) into their countries, if they want to recover tranquility at home, while they liberalize and become humanitarian (and universalistic in their spiritual outlook).

_________________
There's a problem with the reading part. When literacy cum reading produced what Pinker calls the "humanitarian revolution" (in the Western 18th century, especially northwestern Europe and northeastern North America), there was no TV. I'm afraid a lot of people don't read these days because of TV, which is full of garbage. I might be wrong though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A lot of people here have a lot of opinions about Muslims, Islamists, and anyone who prays to Allah, all those opinions negative

So what to do? If Muslims are a problem, what to do about it?

Muslims aren't a problem. Islamists are a major problem.

Hopefully the flow of money will get cut off and they'll lose their power. Unfortunately, I don't expect that to happen until the big booms start flying.

 

[repoman]

A nominal christian will not be in the future support Sharia or a crypto-islamic political party and be under pressure to be under its sway. A nominal muslim will or else his/her friends and family will give them a hassle. They will have to fall in line.

By nominal I mean born of muslim parents but is essentially agnostic or atheist, yet does not want to make waves. Maybe getting nominal muslims (who are skeptics) to be comfortable to say to their families the kind of stuff nominal christians say should be a goal.

The mass media here in the US has been helping the cause in a way by having many scenes in movies and tv where a teen or young adult questions Xtianity in their family itself or the harsh fundamentalist interpretation of it. Why not do that for Islam? Not question Islamic terrorists and honor killings, but question Islam even at its best. Islam at its best still kind of sucks.

Somehow remove the stigma of bigotry for calling out/satirizing Islam in the exact same way that we have been doing to Christianity and Catholicism.

 

[Warpoet]

A nominal christian will not be in the future support Sharia or a crypto-islamic political party and be under pressure to be under its sway. A nominal muslim will or else his/her friends and family will give them a hassle. They will have to fall in line.

Yeah, I'm guessing you don't know a single Muslim personally and are just making shit up.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

By the way, I noticed that you are up to your usual strawmen. Muslims aren't the problem, fundamentalist/militant Islam is the problem, and you know the distinction yet you distort to smear your opponents. You must really view your political opponents as the enemy and sub-human to treat them this way. I notice a similar pattern in how you treat conservatives

STRAWMAN

has a meaning

And I do not think that word means what you think it means

Either that or you don't understand what I am asking or why, which you could remedy by asking me questions as opposed to accusing me of machinations.

And you have no idea how I treat conservatives. You have an idea how I have treated what passes for conservative thought on these boards and even that may well be incomplete.

 

[laughing dog]

By the way, I noticed that you are up to your usual strawmen. Muslims aren't the problem, fundamentalist/militant Islam is the problem, and you know the distinction yet you distort to smear your opponents. You must really view your political opponents as the enemy and sub-human to treat them this way. I notice a similar pattern in how you treat conservatives.

We have posters in a justifying the view that moderate Muslims are rightfully viewed as dangerous because they cannot be easily distinguished from the extremists. So, that ain't no straw man.

 

[thebeave]

A lot of people here have a lot of opinions about Muslims, Islamists, and anyone who prays to Allah, all those opinions negative

So what to do? If Muslims are a problem, what to do about it?

How about we start an educational campaign to "Teach Muslims not to kill". You know, like the feminst campaign to "Teach Men not to rape".

 

[laughing dog]

It is no up to "us" to civilize anyone or anything. There is no way to accomplish that. "We" need to learn how to live with Islamists. Either that means in peace or with strife. Demonizing Islam and Islamists simply justifies their perceived victimization. Staying true to the values and ideals of our societies is the best way to continue IMO.