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What would it take to sustain a 1g acceleration over a 75 year period?

The problem with trying to understand relativistic effects is that it is counter-intuitive. The fact that an effect is contrary to expectation only means that a Newtonian effect was wrongly expected.

c is not just the speed of light. c is the maximum speed of causality. For someone traveling between star systems at c, it will take zero time in their reference frame. This is because of time dilation and Laurence contraction, the traveler will see two star systems at the same place. If greater than c were possible then the traveler would get to the destination star system before they left the first star system.
I'll compare it to breaking te sound barrier. Credible people thought it was impossible. YThey sloly increased spped on succevie tests. Problems surfaced not predicted by theory and were solved.

Fibaly the speed of sound was passed in stable flight.

We can't know what happens in a spacecraft until we actualyl try it which is not likely possible.

Will something surpass relativity as relativity surpassed Newtonian?


To an obsever in one frame mass appears to chnage in another frame. Wirthin each frame a kg and second appears the same., C will always stay the same.

So, in my frame as I accelerate does it it take increasingly more energy to maintain 1g?

I don't know enough theory to put my finger on it, but something does not seem to add up.
Relativity "surpassed" Newtonian mechanics only in the sense that it made Newton more generally applicable especially in the extremes. Relativity applied to human scale relative velocities and human scale masses is Newtonian..

Certainly, there will be improvements in the Theory of Relativity just as Relativity is only an improvement in Newton's theories but, like Newton, the fundamentals of Relativity will still be a description of reality. The improvement will likely be a GUT that theoretical physicists have been working at for a hundred years now that will unite Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Currently relativity describes the macro-universe and QM describes the micro-universe (Newton describes the human scale universe).

And no, the speed of sound and c have nothing in common. Overcoming the speed of sound was just a matter of overcoming a fluid dynamics problem. c is a universal constant.
 
An often-used experimental example of quantum-mechanical entanglement is two-photon decay of an electronic excited state of an atom. In most transitions, an excited electron will emit a single photon as it de-excites, but that is sometimes not quantum-mechanically possible, and an electron may have to detour into another state before reaching its final state, emitting a photon each way, thus emitting two.

When it does so, it emits them in state of mixed polarizations.  Bell's theorem has the mathematical details, and the photons are emitted as a mixture of (h-h) and (v-v) states (h = horizontal, v = vertical with reference to some coordinate system). Other polarizations are mixtures of h and v.

Now for detectors of these photons. Each one, by itself, detects completely random polarization orientations. But taken together, one can find correlations between the detectors -- positive correlation between the same polarization orientations, and negative correlation between 90-degree-different polarization orientations, with in-between being specified with a simple trig function.

So there is no way to transmit information by changing the polarization direction of one's detector.
 
I'll compare it to breaking te sound barrier. Credible people thought it was impossible. YThey sloly increased spped on succevie tests. Problems surfaced not predicted by theory and were solved.

No. There was no question about whether we could exceed the speed of sound--we have been propelling things supersonic since ancient times. (Admittedly, we didn't know we were back then.) The question was whether we could build a plane that could survive and be controllable supersonic. The usual result of going supersonic was the immediate destruction of the airplane.

Fibaly the speed of sound was passed in stable flight.

We can't know what happens in a spacecraft until we actualyl try it which is not likely possible.

Will something surpass relativity as relativity surpassed Newtonian?

We don't need a spacecraft. We can see what happens when we push particles really hard they exhibit the effects Einstein predicts and they do not go superluminal even when pushed hard enough to put a Newtonian particle way past lightspeed.

To an obsever in one frame mass appears to chnage in another frame. Wirthin each frame a kg and second appears the same., C will always stay the same.

So, in my frame as I accelerate does it it take increasingly more energy to maintain 1g?

I don't know enough theory to put my finger on it, but something does not seem to add up.

It does not take more energy in your frame. The outside observer will not see you doing 1g, though. You will have taken longer (your clock is running slow) to go a shorter distance (your meter is running short in the direction of motion.)
 
Pushing a particle from a collider fixed to our Earth inertial frame is not the same as having an engine on the particle..

Relativity describes phenomenon observed by different frames, does it not?

The mass of the particles in a collider does not change, the relativistic mass appears to change from the view of the accelerating magnets.

It is all predicated on how we view light, EMR, itself.

I know electromagnets well nd have aplied it, but I doubt we really understnd the phenomena of light and propagation.

I read Yeager's biography where he discusses his time at Edwards. There were those unconvinced the sound barrier was not surpacable for a number of reasons. In the 19th century soe scientists believed humans could not survive 50mph on a train.

The idea that we have it all understand existed in the 19th century, the end of science. Obvu iouly wrong. Along came QM and rekatuvity.

We can still be susceptible to it. All models are subject to change.

In electronics increasing how fast a digital signal changes increases power, other things being equal. As dt goes to 0 dV/dt goes to infinity a singularity. It s impossible to change a signal in zero time, and C represents the limit. C limits how fast your PC runs.

My quetion is you are traveling on a ship with self contained energy and engine, what is the mechanism that would increase energy demand as v/C goes to 1?
 
Pushing a particle from a collider fixed to our Earth inertial frame is not the same as having an engine on the particle..

Relativity describes phenomenon observed by different frames, does it not?

The mass of the particles in a collider does not change, the relativistic mass appears to change from the view of the accelerating magnets.

It is all predicated on how we view light, EMR, itself.

I know electromagnets well nd have aplied it, but I doubt we really understnd the phenomena of light and propagation.

I read Yeager's biography where he discusses his time at Edwards. There were those unconvinced the sound barrier was not surpacable for a number of reasons. In the 19th century soe scientists believed humans could not survive 50mph on a train.

The idea that we have it all understand existed in the 19th century, the end of science. Obvu iouly wrong. Along came QM and rekatuvity.

We can still be susceptible to it. All models are subject to change.

In electronics increasing how fast a digital signal changes increases power, other things being equal. As dt goes to 0 dV/dt goes to infinity a singularity. It s impossible to change a signal in zero time, and C represents the limit. C limits how fast your PC runs.

My quetion is you are traveling on a ship with self contained energy and engine, what is the mechanism that would increase energy demand as v/C goes to 1?
The mechanism is that the energy you add increasingly goes to increases in mass, and not increases in velocity.

And this "scientists were wrong in the past, therefore they might be wrong now" argument is horseshit. It's common enough, but it's based on abject ignorance of what science is, and what scientists are.

Science is a method by which our knowledge ratchets up over time through the identification and elimination of impossible hypotheses. It's a process of making fewer and fewer things possible, starting from the position that absolutely anything is possible, and then showing that some things are not.

The opposite is done in technology, where scientific information is applied to making previously impossible things possible - such as building a plane that can break the sound barrier.

Scentists are not only people who use the scientific method; They are also people who speculate with limited evidence or knowledge, about things they don't know much about.

When a scientist says "it might be impossible to build an aircraft that can exceed the speed of sound", he is wearing the latter hat. When he says "it is impossible for anything to exceed the speed of light", he is wearing the former.

That uneducated people can't tell the difference is not a failure of science, it's a failure of the education system - a system that is constantly and deliberately undermined by people who are terrified that their favourite nonsense might be shown to be impossible.

It's no more possible that "the scientists are wrong about the light speed barrier, just like they were with the sound barrier", than it is possible that they are wrong about the impossibility of building a perpetual motion machine.

The sound barrier was never a fundamental scientific principle; It was a mere engineering challenge. Breaking the sound barrier required no revisions or overturning of basic physics as it was then understood.

The speed of light as a limit is, like the first law of thermodynamics, fundamental. It's not possible that it might be wrong, because if it were then all of our science would have to be very obviously and seriously wrong. And it's not. We checked.

The superficial similarities between the incorrect claim that the sound barrier would never be broken, and the correct claim that the light barrier will never be broken, are a trap for the ignorant; Nobody with a grasp of what science actually is should be fooled into imagining that these claims are genuinely in the same category of plausibility.
 
Lawws of of conservation are not provable, it is said no exceptions have been observed.

Whie I have aplied electromagnatics, the theories are not satisfying. The slit difraction expemnt to me opens quetions as to how we view EMR.

The fact that in free space light from different sources do not intefere for me raises quetions.

As I said, C as a limit for a particle velocity is based on our perception of light.

For a spce ship what is the mechanism that increases energy demand as v-->C? I am not quetioning C is constant in medium, I know that elementally from actual measurements.

A signal changing in zero time would also violate conservation. A voltage can not suffering appear on a wire from nowhere.

I do not quetion fundamnel physics. I pose a question from theory that is not subject to experiment. We do not know what will actualy happen if a ship accelerates at 1g for hundreds of years.

What woud reality look like from the ship at a high percentage of C?
 
Lawws of of conservation are not provable, it is said no exceptions have been observed.

Whie I have aplied electromagnatics, the theories are not satisfying. The slit difraction expemnt to me opens quetions as to how we view EMR.

The fact that in free space light from different sources do not intefere for me raises quetions.

As I said, C as a limit for a particle velocity is based on our perception of light.

For a spce ship what is the mechanism that increases energy demand as v-->C? I am not quetioning C is constant in medium, I know that elementally from actual measurements.

A signal changing in zero time would also violate conservation. A voltage can not suffering appear on a wire from nowhere.

I do not quetion fundamnel physics. I pose a question from theory that is not subject to experiment. We do not know what will actualy happen if a ship accelerates at 1g for hundreds of years.

What woud reality look like from the ship at a high percentage of C?
Velocity of an object is a meaningless term unless a reference point is specified. c does not need a reference because it is a constant no matter what reference point (inertial reference frame) is used to measure it (well known since the late 1800s after Michaelson-Morley). The Earth is traveling at a velocity close to c with respect to distant quasars. So reality within a reference frame at a high velocity with respect to some other reference frame looks exactly like we now see it. Those who think in Newtonian terms have difficulty with this because they see the universe as a fixed grid and any movement is with respect to that grid (generally with the Sun fixed to that grid).

How reality of anything in the same inertial reference frame would look is exactly as you now observe it. How reality of objects that are outside the reference frame you are in that you are moving rapidly with respect to would depend on which way you look. Objects you are moving toward would appear blue shifted. Objects to the right and left would appear to have shifted toward the front. Objects to the rear would appear red shifted and moved a bit to the side. As your velocity increases with respect to local objects those objects will appear to continue to shift toward the front creating a forward "tunnel effect".
 
C does need an inertial refence. As an EE I routinely measured EM velocity, not in a vaccum but in diectric materials.

A space ship acclerates from Earth at 1g. At all times on the ship a kg and a second appear unchanged in the frame of the ship. Waht is the mechanism that increases demand for energy?

A fluid is flowing through a pipe with a laminar flow profile. The center of the flow is the highest velocity and it tapers off with a parabolic profile. At the pipe surface velocity theoretically goes to zero due to friction.

Likewise it seems there needs to be a retarding force prportional to v/c. If relativistic mass actaully increases and is not a relativistic observation between frames, how does that happen?
 
C does need an inertial refence.
No, it doesn't. c is a constant for all observers
As an EE I routinely measured EM velocity, not in a vaccum but in diectric materials.
So, nothing to do with c, then.
A space ship acclerates from Earth at 1g. At all times on the ship a kg and a second appear unchanged in the frame of the ship. Waht is the mechanism that increases demand for energy?
The demand for energy is constant. The acceleration is constant, so the energy required is also constant.

An earthbound observer would see more and more of that energy converted to mass, rather than velocity.

An observer on board would see the universe outside the window becoming more and more distorted, with stars along the route getting closer together; They would experience constant acceleration, but would never see anything pass by at c or greater. And if they measured the speed of light shone ahead, behind, or to the side of the ship, they would find the photons heading away from the ship at c in all cases.
A fluid is flowing through a pipe with a laminar flow profile. The center of the flow is the highest velocity and it tapers off with a parabolic profile. At the pipe surface velocity theoretically goes to zero due to friction.
Fascinating
Likewise it seems there needs to be a retarding force prportional to v/c.
Only if you're living in a Newtonian universe. Which you're not.
If relativistic mass actaully increases and is not a relativistic observation between frames, how does that happen?
E=mc2

c is a constant, so as E increases, so must m.
 
C does need an inertial refence. As an EE I routinely measured EM velocity, not in a vaccum but in diectric materials.
That was the understanding of reality until the late 1800s. It is the reason that they were so sure that there was a "luminiferous ether" pervading the universe. Scientific measurement finding that there wasn't was a major impetus for Einstein developing his model of reality.

Imagine that two ships leave the earth, one traveling toward the Sun at 290,000kM/sec and the other traveling away from the Sun at 290,000kM/sec. Each measures the the speed of both the solar wind and light from the Sun with respect to their ships. The ship traveling toward the sun will measure the speed of the solar wind away from the Sun at a bit over 290,000kM/sec with respect to the ship. The ship traveling away from the sun will measure the speed of the solar wind toward the Sun at a bit under 290,000kM/sec with respect to the ship. Each will measure the speed of light away from the Sun at exactly c with respect to their ships.
A space ship acclerates from Earth at 1g. At all times on the ship a kg and a second appear unchanged in the frame of the ship. Waht is the mechanism that increases demand for energy?
The demand for energy to maintain 1g does not increase for those on the ship.
A fluid is flowing through a pipe with a laminar flow profile. The center of the flow is the highest velocity and it tapers off with a parabolic profile. At the pipe surface velocity theoretically goes to zero due to friction.
True but irrelevant as an analogy.
Likewise it seems there needs to be a retarding force prportional to v/c. If relativistic mass actaully increases and is not a relativistic observation between frames, how does that happen?
No force but the nature of reality. The mass does not increase for those on the ship but the ship's mass would appear to for those in a different reference frame. You need to understand the nature of spacetime. What those on the ship measure as distance in the direction of travel is less than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. What those on the ship measure as a minute will be shorter than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. What those on the ship measure as mass will be less than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. Plug the values of those measurements into Newtonian equations and you will get the results that Relativity predicts.
 
C does need an inertial refence. As an EE I routinely measured EM velocity, not in a vaccum but in diectric materials.
That was the understanding of reality until the late 1800s. It is the reason that they were so sure that there was a "luminiferous ether" pervading the universe. Scientific measurement finding that there wasn't was a major impetus for Einstein developing his model of reality.

Imagine that two ships leave the earth, one traveling toward the Sun at 290,000kM/sec and the other traveling away from the Sun at 290,000kM/sec. Each measures the the speed of both the solar wind and light from the Sun with respect to their ships. The ship traveling toward the sun will measure the speed of the solar wind away from the Sun at a bit over 290,000kM/sec with respect to the ship. The ship traveling away from the sun will measure the speed of the solar wind toward the Sun at a bit under 290,000kM/sec with respect to the ship. Each will measure the speed of light away from the Sun at exactly c with respect to their ships.

I recently had an occasion to actually do the math for one scenario. This won't make sense without the context but the numbers are right:

Let's assume they are MDMs fired near max range. When they interpenetrate they are going to be moving around .35c each, thus about .62c relative to each other (assuming the launchers aren't moving too fast.)

No force but the nature of reality. The mass does not increase for those on the ship but the ship's mass would appear to for those in a different reference frame. You need to understand the nature of spacetime. What those on the ship measure as distance in the direction of travel is less than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. What those on the ship measure as a minute will be shorter than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. What those on the ship measure as mass will be less than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. Plug the values of those measurements into Newtonian equations and you will get the results that Relativity predicts.

Let's look at this from a different direction:

What's the standard SI unit of energy? The Joule. (J). It's the force of one Newton acting through a distance of one meter. But what happens as you approach c? Your meter gets shorter.

If you look at any of the relativistic transformations independently they produce a garbage result, hence why people have such a hard time comprehending them. However, when you consider all three put together you get a consistent universe.
 
C does need an inertial refence. As an EE I routinely measured EM velocity, not in a vaccum but in diectric materials.
That was the understanding of reality until the late 1800s. It is the reason that they were so sure that there was a "luminiferous ether" pervading the universe. Scientific measurement finding that there wasn't was a major impetus for Einstein developing his model of reality.

Imagine that two ships leave the earth, one traveling toward the Sun at 290,000kM/sec and the other traveling away from the Sun at 290,000kM/sec. Each measures the the speed of both the solar wind and light from the Sun with respect to their ships. The ship traveling toward the sun will measure the speed of the solar wind away from the Sun at a bit over 290,000kM/sec with respect to the ship. The ship traveling away from the sun will measure the speed of the solar wind toward the Sun at a bit under 290,000kM/sec with respect to the ship. Each will measure the speed of light away from the Sun at exactly c with respect to their ships.

I recently had an occasion to actually do the math for one scenario. This won't make sense without the context but the numbers are right:

Let's assume they are MDMs fired near max range. When they interpenetrate they are going to be moving around .35c each, thus about .62c relative to each other (assuming the launchers aren't moving too fast.)

No force but the nature of reality. The mass does not increase for those on the ship but the ship's mass would appear to for those in a different reference frame. You need to understand the nature of spacetime. What those on the ship measure as distance in the direction of travel is less than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. What those on the ship measure as a minute will be shorter than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. What those on the ship measure as mass will be less than that measured by someone in a different reference frame. Plug the values of those measurements into Newtonian equations and you will get the results that Relativity predicts.

Let's look at this from a different direction:

What's the standard SI unit of energy? The Joule. (J). It's the force of one Newton acting through a distance of one meter. But what happens as you approach c? Your meter gets shorter.

If you look at any of the relativistic transformations independently they produce a garbage result, hence why people have such a hard time comprehending them. However, when you consider all three put together you get a consistent universe.
That is certainly one problem people have with trying to understand relativity. I think that the tendency of people to cling to the concept of a preferred reference frame is also a more basic barrier. A velocity of something like .9c will be given to a ship with, apparently, the understanding that it is with respect to some fixed universal reference frame. It is like the thinking is that there is "reality" and then there is how reality looks (but isn't true reality) for something with a relativistic velocity with respect to that universal reference frame.

In effect, this leads to them not actually trying to understand relativity but trying to show why it is wrong because it contradicts what they "know" is reality.
 
From a layman's POV, the speed of light is based on how quickly an electromagnetic force can move through spacetime. If a ship is going faster than light, how can electromagnetism forces work on a ship if the ship is moving faster than electromagnetism can?

And that is ignoring the well established rules, observations, and math that has been developed on the subject and simply looking at it in a very simplistic / macroscopic way.
 
From a layman's POV, the speed of light is based on how quickly an electromagnetic force can move through spacetime. If a ship is going faster than light, how can electromagnetism forces work on a ship if the ship is moving faster than electromagnetism can?

And that is ignoring the well established rules, observations, and math that has been developed on the subject and simply looking at it in a very simplistic / macroscopic way.
It's more fundamental than that.

As velocity approaches c, the size of the universe from the perspective of the moving object approaches zero. Space disappears, and the time required to travel from any point to any other approaches zero. How could anything travel any distance in less than zero time?

That doesn't apply from the perspective of an observer who stayed home watching your spacecraft head out to explore strange new worlds and new civilisations; But to that observer, other limits are noticeable.

If the spacecraft had a non-zero mass when at rest, it would appear to have mass approaching infinity as it approached c. How do you accelerate an object with near infinite mass? You would need to apply a near infinite force, and even a really big engine can't quite achieve that.

Objects with rest mass are therefore constrained to travel below c, while (perhaps oddly) objects with zero rest mass are only able to travel at c (in free space).
 
From a layman's POV, the speed of light is based on how quickly an electromagnetic force can move through spacetime. If a ship is going faster than light, how can electromagnetism forces work on a ship if the ship is moving faster than electromagnetism can?

And that is ignoring the well established rules, observations, and math that has been developed on the subject and simply looking at it in a very simplistic / macroscopic way.
It's more fundamental than that.

As velocity approaches c...
Yes, it is. Not saying otherwise. I was just tackling it from a macroscopic, screw the speed of light and mass issues, forget the math.

If for no other reason, we can't go faster than c because things can't work faster than c. And I have a problem with a warp bubble because what are the laws of physics inside a warp bubble. Can matter exist inside a bubble at all?
 
I found a partial answer to my question. A particle in a cyclotron is accelerated by magnetic fields. As v -> C the particle becomes out of phase in some sense with the magnetic field. I expect it is related to time dilation. C as a limit is demonstrated accelerating a partcle within a moving inertiall frame, IOW Earth .

In spaceship with frame itself being accelerated there is no rerlative time dilation, all is normal in the spaceship.

I am doing some reading but it is slow for me.

I am working up a simple simulation. It looks like the short answer to the OP is it is not possible to accelerate at 1 g for 7 years. Using Newtonian mechanics you end up exceeding C after a year or so.

At least in elctronics C represents causality. A circuit can not change state before a signal gets there. In nay electrcal dynaic system under change dt can never go to zero, physically and mathematically a singularity occurs. A parameter tries to go to infinity limted by the enrgy in the circuit.

Inductive car ignition systems break a DC current attempting to stop current in zero time. A high voltage arc occurs creating plasma in air to maintain the current. If no discharge occurs voltage rises until the inductor arcs over internally.

You can't go faster than C, but the flip side is you also can't make a change in zero time.
 
I am working up a simple simulation. It looks like the short answer to the OP is it is not possible to accelerate at 1 g for 7 years. Using Newtonian mechanics you end up exceeding C after a year or so.
That looks more like a Newtonian analysis. For the crew of the ship, how long they can sustain 1g acceleration is only limited by how much fuel they have. Their velocity with respect to themselves will always be zero so inside the ship they will experience no relativistic effects.

The limitation is in how someone in a different reference frame will observe the ship's acceleration. While those in the ship will measure a continual 1g acceleration, those in the different reference frame will see the ship's acceleration steadily decreasing as the ship's velocity steadily increases with respect to them. At the start they will see the ship accelerate at 9.8 M/s2 then steadily decreasing toward zero acceleration as the ship approaches relativistic velocities with respect to themselves.
 
I am working up a simple simulation. It looks like the short answer to the OP is it is not possible to accelerate at 1 g for 7 years. Using Newtonian mechanics you end up exceeding C after a year or so.
That looks more like a Newtonian analysis. For the crew of the ship, how long they can sustain 1g acceleration is only limited by how much fuel they have. Their velocity with respect to themselves will always be zero so inside the ship they will experience no relativistic effects.

The limitation is in how someone in a different reference frame will observe the ship's acceleration. While those in the ship will measure a continual 1g acceleration, those in the different reference frame will see the ship's acceleration steadily decreasing as the ship's velocity steadily increases with respect to them. At the start they will see the ship accelerate at 9.8 M/s2 then steadily decreasing toward zero acceleration as the ship approaches relativistic velocities with respect to themselves.
That brings me back around to my question, why then is C a limit for a spacecraft in free space?
 
I am working up a simple simulation. It looks like the short answer to the OP is it is not possible to accelerate at 1 g for 7 years. Using Newtonian mechanics you end up exceeding C after a year or so.
That looks more like a Newtonian analysis. For the crew of the ship, how long they can sustain 1g acceleration is only limited by how much fuel they have. Their velocity with respect to themselves will always be zero so inside the ship they will experience no relativistic effects.

The limitation is in how someone in a different reference frame will observe the ship's acceleration. While those in the ship will measure a continual 1g acceleration, those in the different reference frame will see the ship's acceleration steadily decreasing as the ship's velocity steadily increases with respect to them. At the start they will see the ship accelerate at 9.8 M/s2 then steadily decreasing toward zero acceleration as the ship approaches relativistic velocities with respect to themselves.
That brings me back around to my question, why then is C a limit for a spacecraft in free space?
That seems to be like asking why is there a universal gravitational constant or why do electrons have a specific charge.

c is a universal constant like several other universal constants. They are what they are because that is what they are.

But to your spaceship in free space. A spaceship in free space can not be said to have any velocity unless it is with respect to something else in a different reference frame. It is its velocity with respect to that different reference frame that is limited to c.

If there are measurements of the spaceship's velocity from two other reference frames moving with respect to each other then one can measure the ship's velocity with respect to them at .9c while the other measures the ship's velocity at .4c with respect to them. Velocity is relative not an absolute... likely why uncle Al's theory is called the Theory of Relativity.
 
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7 years of 9.8 m/sec2 will give you 0.999998909983108*c
At that speed you will be effectively moving with a speed of 677*c.
I mean in one year of ships clock you will be covering 677 light years of distance in the rest frame.
 
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