What's the fuss about recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital?

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has been conducting it's own little private holocaust for decades.

The real Holocaust greatly cut the Jewish population.

The population in Gaza and the West Bank has been growing.

Saying you are better than the Nazi's is not much of a claim.

Imagine how many more Palestinians there would be if Israel had not killed so many and oppressed so many for so long?

But of course that is one reason Israel is doing it.

Once again, your ideology blinds you.

What I was saying is that it's obviously not a holocaust.

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Incorrect. There is exactly one border crossing between the West Bank and Jordan ( Allenby_Bridge), and it's operated by the Israeli Airport Authority. And there's also exactly one border crossing from Gaza to Egypt (Rafah) which is frequently and for long times closed to all traffic, often under implicit pressure by Israel. And the Israeli navy blocks ships trying to enter Gaza, which, assuming Israel no longer claims Gaza as it proclaims, constitutes piracy under any valid definition of the term.

At neither crossing does Israel control who is allowed to cross.

It is a brutal repressive ugly nation.

While it's not exactly a shining star it's still vastly above everyone around it.

This is relevant why?

Because you're advocating for the fire over the frying pan.

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It would not mean the end of the State of Israel. It would mean the end of the unassailable Jewish majority; Jews would still be the majority population but no by much, and any successful political parties would have to work with Christian and Muslim Israelis in order to govern. In time it might mean that Israel's character would be secular instead of Jewish.

It would be hardline Islamic, not secular. (...)

How is this going to work, mathematically?
The Palestinian Territorries population is 4.55 million, including Jewish settlers in the West Bank. The population of Israel is 8.5 million, including Israeli Arabs. Fertility rates in the Palestinian Territorries are falling, while they are rising in Israel mostly due to the rising share of the Ultraorthodox segment of the population.

In fact, if Israel wants to maintain its secular character, it arguably has to give citizenship rights to the Palestinians to balance the growing influence of the ultraorthodox.

Add in the returning "refugees" and they have a majority. Very soon the Jewish population is zero.

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As people become educated and comfortable birth rates go down.

Israel is preventing this from happening.

But that does not mean the population will decrease.

What prevents that in Palestinian lands is a brutal occupier. Who would willfully put themselves under such oppression?

Israel?? It's the Palestinians that are preventing it. Things were looking up so their leaders picked a fight to keep them down.

 

[Jayjay]

You have no idea what the size of Palestine would be. You would have no idea how many cities they would have. You have no idea how many people would immigrate there.

You have no statistics to describe what would happen and have no idea what would happen.

I think the pronoun you are looking for is "I".

Yes. You have run out of things to say.

How many cities would exist in the West Bank if Israel stopped it's oppression?

Probably not any more than now. Land is needed also for agriculture and industry, not just people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please cite the data of population changes after a population has been released from brutal oppression.

If you have none you have no point.

Once again, blinded by ideology.

It's not a matter of being released from oppression. It's about their economic level. The better the economy the lower the fertility.

 

[untermensche]

Please cite the data of population changes after a population has been released from brutal oppression.

If you have none you have no point.

Once again, blinded by ideology.

It's not a matter of being released from oppression. It's about their economic level. The better the economy the lower the fertility.

You are blind to facts.

Israel is an evil ugly repressive brutal nation.

The entire world understands this.

Everybody.

Except a handful of very deluded Americans.

 

[Jokodo]

You have no idea what the size of Palestine would be. You would have no idea how many cities they would have. You have no idea how many people would immigrate there.

You have no statistics to describe what would happen and have no idea what would happen.

I think the pronoun you are looking for is "I".

Yes. You have run out of things to say.

There is indeed very little one can say when before you read up on the demographic transition.

 

[Jokodo]

Incorrect. There is exactly one border crossing between the West Bank and Jordan ( Allenby_Bridge), and it's operated by the Israeli Airport Authority. And there's also exactly one border crossing from Gaza to Egypt (Rafah) which is frequently and for long times closed to all traffic, often under implicit pressure by Israel. And the Israeli navy blocks ships trying to enter Gaza, which, assuming Israel no longer claims Gaza as it proclaims, constitutes piracy under any valid definition of the term.

At neither crossing does Israel control who is allowed to cross.

This is incorrect, as you probably know.

It is a brutal repressive ugly nation.

While it's not exactly a shining star it's still vastly above everyone around it.

This is relevant why?

Because you're advocating for the fire over the frying pan.

I'm not advocating for any government.

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It would not mean the end of the State of Israel. It would mean the end of the unassailable Jewish majority; Jews would still be the majority population but no by much, and any successful political parties would have to work with Christian and Muslim Israelis in order to govern. In time it might mean that Israel's character would be secular instead of Jewish.

It would be hardline Islamic, not secular. (...)

How is this going to work, mathematically?
The Palestinian Territorries population is 4.55 million, including Jewish settlers in the West Bank. The population of Israel is 8.5 million, including Israeli Arabs. Fertility rates in the Palestinian Territorries are falling, while they are rising in Israel mostly due to the rising share of the Ultraorthodox segment of the population.

In fact, if Israel wants to maintain its secular character, it arguably has to give citizenship rights to the Palestinians to balance the growing influence of the ultraorthodox.

Add in the returning "refugees" and they have a majority.

Maybe a very slight one, maybe not. Certainly not a qualified majority able to change the constitution.

Very soon the Jewish population is zero.

You're repeating yourself without any new arguments.

 

[sharon45]

Please cite the data of population changes after a population has been released from brutal oppression.

If you have none you have no point.

Once again, blinded by ideology.

It's not a matter of being released from oppression. It's about their economic level. The better the economy the lower the fertility.

You are blind to facts.

Israel is an evil ugly repressive brutal nation.

The entire world understands this.

Everybody.

Except a handful of very deluded Americans.

And all trading partners with Israel.

 

[untermensche]

You are blind to facts.

Israel is an evil ugly repressive brutal nation.

The entire world understands this.

Everybody.

Except a handful of very deluded Americans.

And all trading partners with Israel.

These nations allow individuals to trade freely with Israeli citizens, with the world.

Something Israel does not allow the Palestinians to do.

It is an ugly highly repressive immoral nation.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Reading the twitter feed of Julian Assange, I was reminded of something. I had forgotten it because I generally don't concern myself too much with foreign policy.

Roughly six months ago, congress voted urging Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It passed with very strong majorities. So strong, in fact, that every single Democrat Senator voted for it.

All this shock and horror people appear to be showing at Trump doing this ... it seems to me to be "but we didn't mean for you to do it, we just wanted to criticize you for not doing it." He did what congress - including the Democrats - wanted.

I remember about 8 years ago a political cartoon about Obama trying to get along with the Republicans in congress and saying "Ha! I've given you exactly what you asked for! Now we've compromised!" and the Republicans saying "Curses, foiled again."

 

[untermensche]

Reading the twitter feed of Julian Assange, I was reminded of something. I had forgotten it because I generally don't concern myself too much with foreign policy.

Roughly six months ago, congress voted urging Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It passed with very strong majorities. So strong, in fact, that every single Democrat Senator voted for it.

All this shock and horror people appear to be showing at Trump doing this ... it seems to me to be "but we didn't mean for you to do it, we just wanted to criticize you for not doing it." He did what congress - including the Democrats - wanted.

I remember about 8 years ago a political cartoon about Obama trying to get along with the Republicans in congress and saying "Ha! I've given you exactly what you asked for! Now we've compromised!" and the Republicans saying "Curses, foiled again."

In 1995 the idiotic polluted by money US Congress voted to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. In express violation of UN Resolutions.

Clinton vetoed this lunacy.

It is a shame we do not have a sane President since the Congress has clearly been insane for decades.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Reading the twitter feed of Julian Assange, I was reminded of something. I had forgotten it because I generally don't concern myself too much with foreign policy.

Roughly six months ago, congress voted urging Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It passed with very strong majorities. So strong, in fact, that every single Democrat Senator voted for it.

All this shock and horror people appear to be showing at Trump doing this ... it seems to me to be "but we didn't mean for you to do it, we just wanted to criticize you for not doing it." He did what congress - including the Democrats - wanted.

I remember about 8 years ago a political cartoon about Obama trying to get along with the Republicans in congress and saying "Ha! I've given you exactly what you asked for! Now we've compromised!" and the Republicans saying "Curses, foiled again."

Count on Jason to find ways to attack the democrats over any policy implemented by the republicans!

This decision was made ultimately by Trump. Funny how republicans are already regretting it and trying to blame the democrats.

 

[Ford]

This decision was made ultimately by Trump. Funny how republicans are already regretting it and trying to blame the democrats.

Well like Harry Truman once said "the buck stops...wherever it is convenient for me."

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Reading the twitter feed of Julian Assange, I was reminded of something. I had forgotten it because I generally don't concern myself too much with foreign policy.

Roughly six months ago, congress voted urging Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It passed with very strong majorities. So strong, in fact, that every single Democrat Senator voted for it.

All this shock and horror people appear to be showing at Trump doing this ... it seems to me to be "but we didn't mean for you to do it, we just wanted to criticize you for not doing it." He did what congress - including the Democrats - wanted.

I remember about 8 years ago a political cartoon about Obama trying to get along with the Republicans in congress and saying "Ha! I've given you exactly what you asked for! Now we've compromised!" and the Republicans saying "Curses, foiled again."

Count on Jason to find ways to attack the democrats over any policy implemented by the republicans!

This decision was made ultimately by Trump. Funny how republicans are already regretting it and trying to blame the democrats.

Trump did what congress wanted, including the Democrats in congress. Also the Republicans in congress. Both.

I just find it odd when the Democrats are saying "how crazy, you did what I wanted!" They didn't want him to do what they told him to do?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

People again seem to be having a hard time understanding my position.

I'm not saying Trump is good.

I'm saying "isn't it a little hypocritical for congressional Democrats to criticize him for doing what they told him to do?"

 

[Harry Bosch]

People again seem to be having a hard time understanding my position.

I'm not saying Trump is good.

I'm saying "isn't it a little hypocritical for congressional Democrats to criticize him for doing what they told him to do?"

Most people recognize that Jerusalem will be the eventual capital of Israel. Yes, congress authorized the movement of the US embassy to Jerusalem in 1999, but it was suppose to be part of a comprehensive peace plan that would be agreed upon by both parties. Specifically, here is Obama's exact words: "Well, obviously, it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations". After the resolution was passed by congress, Obama extended the move by six months each time because the "negotiations" never happened! They still haven't happened. Let's be clear, the democratic position for some time has been a two-state solution. The republican solution seems to be a "one-state" solution, but with no citizen rights to Palestinians.

 

[sharon45]

People again seem to be having a hard time understanding my position.

I'm not saying Trump is good.

I'm saying "isn't it a little hypocritical for congressional Democrats to criticize him for doing what they told him to do?"

Most people recognize that Jerusalem will be the eventual capital of Israel. Yes, congress authorized the movement of the US embassy to Jerusalem in 1999, but it was suppose to be part of a comprehensive peace plan that would be agreed upon by both parties. Specifically, here is Obama's exact words: "Well, obviously, it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations". After the resolution was passed by congress, Obama extended the move by six months each time because the "negotiations" never happened! They still haven't happened. Let's be clear, the democratic position for some time has been a two-state solution. The republican solution seems to be a "one-state" solution, but with no citizen rights to Palestinians.

Not at the moment, but even Netanyahu has called for a two-state plan before.

 

[Harry Bosch]

People again seem to be having a hard time understanding my position.

I'm not saying Trump is good.

I'm saying "isn't it a little hypocritical for congressional Democrats to criticize him for doing what they told him to do?"

Most people recognize that Jerusalem will be the eventual capital of Israel. Yes, congress authorized the movement of the US embassy to Jerusalem in 1999, but it was suppose to be part of a comprehensive peace plan that would be agreed upon by both parties. Specifically, here is Obama's exact words: "Well, obviously, it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations". After the resolution was passed by congress, Obama extended the move by six months each time because the "negotiations" never happened! They still haven't happened. Let's be clear, the democratic position for some time has been a two-state solution. The republican solution seems to be a "one-state" solution, but with no citizen rights to Palestinians.

Not at the moment, but even Netanyahu has called for a two-state plan before.

https://forward.com/news/344738/in-...-two-state-solution-says-israel-not-occupier/

 

[Loren Pechtel]

These nations allow individuals to trade freely with Israeli citizens, with the world.

Something Israel does not allow the Palestinians to do.

It is an ugly highly repressive immoral nation.

The Palestinians have free trade with the world other than in military stuff.

 

[untermensche]

These nations allow individuals to trade freely with Israeli citizens, with the world.

Something Israel does not allow the Palestinians to do.

It is an ugly highly repressive immoral nation.

The Palestinians have free trade with the world other than in military stuff.

Telling lies does not make you look good.

Telling lies in support of serious oppression that has lasted decades and has ruined the lives of millions shows you have no morality.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Reading the twitter feed of Julian Assange, I was reminded of something. I had forgotten it because I generally don't concern myself too much with foreign policy.

Roughly six months ago, congress voted urging Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It passed with very strong majorities. So strong, in fact, that every single Democrat Senator voted for it.

All this shock and horror people appear to be showing at Trump doing this ... it seems to me to be "but we didn't mean for you to do it, we just wanted to criticize you for not doing it." He did what congress - including the Democrats - wanted.

I remember about 8 years ago a political cartoon about Obama trying to get along with the Republicans in congress and saying "Ha! I've given you exactly what you asked for! Now we've compromised!" and the Republicans saying "Curses, foiled again."

Count on Jason to find ways to attack the democrats over any policy implemented by the republicans!

This decision was made ultimately by Trump. Funny how republicans are already regretting it and trying to blame the democrats.

Trump did what congress wanted, including the Democrats in congress. Also the Republicans in congress. Both.

I just find it odd when the Democrats are saying "how crazy, you did what I wanted!" They didn't want him to do what they told him to do?

Again, Trump did what a majority of republicans wanted. The democrats (including Clinton and Obama) favor two-state solution, cooperation between the parties, and etc. Republicans are moving towards Israeli unilateral action, no compromise, single state but with no Palestinian states. The two sides are not the same....