When did God create the Angels?

[Rhea]

In what chapter verse do we read about god creating angels?
A cursory glance reveals a void, then a heaven/earth (with liquid water), then light, then fishes and birds, right? Then plants (hope that was fast, for the sake of the animals!), then people, right? But when were the angels created? Are they the “us” and “we” that god refers to up there when he decides on the images for humans?

Do angles even exist if it’s not written in the bible that they were created? Were they perhaps not created by god but by god’s precursor?

 

[James Brown]

Drawing on my many years of Christian education here....

In the beginning was God. God has always existed before the universe. God was alone.

Then God created the angels. The angels were perfect beings assigned various duties, and they all lived and worked together in Heaven. There was some sort of ranking system among the angels, because one of them--Lucifer--was the highest ranked angel. Michael was Angel #2.

Lucifer was in charge of the praise and worship services, where all the angels would sing praises to God because of his magnificence. But Lucifer became jealous of all the attention paid to God, so he formed a rebellion. He convinced one-third of all the angels (unknown numbers, but there are at least thousands of them) to try to overthrow God so that Lucifer can take the throne. Naturally, their rebellion failed, and God cast the rebels out of Heaven. They were sent to what some people call Hell, although not the Lake of Fire that's reserved for anyone who doesn't worship Jesus. The angels's new location was a kind of shadowy underworld, and over time they devolved into what we would call demons. Lucifer adopted the moniker Satan and vowed to have his revenge.

Then, some indeterminate time later, God decided that he needed a bride. To do that, he needed a Church of free-willed beings to make up this celestial bride. So then God decided to create the universe and the Earth, peopled with human beings. Satan, seeing the world created, and wanting to gum up the works, transformed himself into a serpent, convinced Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and thus sin entered the world.

Since then, God has been taking his time teaching people how to be good and worship him, and Satan and the demons have been tempting people to rebel the way they did. Throw in a few genocides, some human sacrifice, and angels finding lost car keys, and we have the situation we have today. One day, per the Book of Revelation, the angels and the demons will fight each other in some grand cosmic battle. Satan and the demons will be cast down forever into the Lake of Fire with all the sinners. Good Christians will be ushered into Heaven to have, um, carnal marital relations with Jesus, and everyone will live happily ever after.

You can read more about this in Milton's Paradise Lost, which is this close to canonical scripture.

Note: Please don't pump me with gotcha questions in an attempt to expose the terrible plot holes and inconsistencies in this story. I don't believe a word of all this. I'm only passing along what was given to me in church, Sunday School, and private Christian schools. Just be aware: you can't prove me wrong.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Wait, so, God created the universe in order to get married? WTF? I don't recall that in any of my sunday school conditioning, but then we were Presbyterian.

 

[Rhea]

Okay, but Genesis says there was a void, not a heaven. And god created the earth AND the heaven in day 1. So is iit implied that he created angels that day, or that they existed in the void?

Also, does this need to have a bride (creeeepy!) mean that angels do not have free will? And if not, how did Lucifer rebel? And if so, why need the humans?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Also -- read the opening of Genesis 6, where the "sons of God" married with "the daughters of men" to create a race of Nephilim (giants....GIANTS!!!!) So, who in Jumping Jehoshaphat were the "sons of God"? JC's brothers? If they married the earthling womenfolk, doesn't this erase the uniqueness of the New Testament story? Where did the Nephilim go? Why isn't this preached about? (Hmm, I think I might know that answer.)
More questions: if the Nephilim were sired by a supernatural being and a human, what were their powers? Could they fly? My answer, and I speak by faith alone, is that the Nephilim were created to fulfill two of God's special purposes, in the fullness of time: 1)to promote frozen broccoli in the 50's/60's and 2)to supply California with a governor in '03. Their mission was then completed.

 

[James Brown]

Wait, so, God created the universe in order to get married? WTF? I don't recall that in any of my sunday school conditioning, but then we were Presbyterian.

There are a handful of Bible verses that allude to the  Bride_of_Christ.

But to be sure, it's not hard to understand why certain church fathers are uncomfortable with the notion that one day they'll be part of a collective Woman and get married to a circumcised Jew.

 

[James Brown]

Okay, but Genesis says there was a void, not a heaven. And god created the earth AND the heaven in day 1. So is iit implied that he created angels that day, or that they existed in the void?

The standard Creationist answer is that when Genesis says that God created the Heavens, it means the sky. In a scientific age, it means the entire visible universe. But Heaven heaven, the place where God lives, that's always been around.

Also, does this need to have a bride (creeeepy!) mean that angels do not have free will? And if not, how did Lucifer rebel?

Decent question. There's a fundamental difference between Angels and Humans. Angels were not created "in God's image," however you interpret that phrase. The usual answer is that yes, angels have free will (otherwise none of them would have chosen to rebel) but they don't have 'souls,' whatever they are. And without souls, they don't qualify as brides, collective or otherwise. Why not? Ask John Milton.

And if so, why need the humans?

In any story written by humans for humans, it only stands to reason that humans are going to be key players. Might as well ask why, in a world with Numenoreans, Elves, and Dwarves, Tolkien featured men so prominently in his mythology. It's because he knows who his audience is.

 

[James Brown]

Also -- read the opening of Genesis 6, where the "sons of God" married with "the daughters of men" to create a race of Nephilim (giants....GIANTS!!!!) So, who in Jumping Jehoshaphat were the "sons of God"? JC's brothers? If they married the earthling womenfolk, doesn't this erase the uniqueness of the New Testament story? Where did the Nephilim go? Why isn't this preached about? (Hmm, I think I might know that answer.)
More questions: if the Nephilim were sired by a supernatural being and a human, what were their powers? Could they fly? My answer, and I speak by faith alone, is that the Nephilim were created to fulfill two of God's special purposes, in the fullness of time: 1)to promote frozen broccoli in the 50's/60's and 2)to supply California with a governor in '03. Their mission was then completed.

Yeah, a lot of people gloss over that chapter and skip ahead to the exciting Great Flood stories. Opinions abound about the Sons of God and the Nephilim. They were either angels, or fallen angels, or proto-humans, or Other.

The very notion hearkens back to the polygamy of the early Hebrews, which causes conflicts with the heavy anti-polygamy stance of the later priestly Israelites. Similar to why one of the Ten Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," which all but admits that there are other gods out there. A modern Christian writing the Big Ten would probably write it as "There are no other gods but me." Some modern-day Christians wave it away declaring that 'gods' can mean 'whatever you pay attention to.' Thus we should only pay attention to THE God. But that can't be supported biblically. Any mention of 'gods' in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, strictly means a supernatural deity to be worshiped, not your Fantasy Football League or who just advanced on Dancing With The Stars.

 

[Lion IRC]

How can God create angels if God doesn't exist?
/thread

 

[Rhea]

How can God create angels if God doesn't exist?
/thread

In the story, Lion. Within the story line, when does it happen.


My children and I discuss science fiction and fantasy plot lines all the time. We can spend days at it. It's fun and interesting. So if there is an attempt at a love-triangle between Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin, wouldn't it fit the existing story better if it were an actual triangle rather than a "Love V"? I propose that the surprise love interest will be Kaladin and Adolin, not Kaladin and Shallan. And then we propose all the relevant dialogue and we'll try to see where the plot line develops holes so we can fill them.

The creation of angels is a plot hole.
How would we plug it?

 

[Rhea]

The standard Creationist answer is that when Genesis says that God created the Heavens, it means the sky. In a scientific age, it means the entire visible universe. But Heaven heaven, the place where God lives, that's always been around.



Decent question. There's a fundamental difference between Angels and Humans. Angels were not created "in God's image," however you interpret that phrase. The usual answer is that yes, angels have free will (otherwise none of them would have chosen to rebel) but they don't have 'souls,' whatever they are. And without souls, they don't qualify as brides, collective or otherwise. Why not? Ask John Milton.

Well, can we show anywhere that it was actually Yahweh who created the angels?

Maybe Yahweh is just an angel himself, and LUCIFER was actually the head honcho and Yahweh overthrew him, and maybe it was their mother who made all the angels and they forced her to eat rocks and die or something?

And if so, why need the humans?

In any story written by humans for humans, it only stands to reason that humans are going to be key players. Might as well ask why, in a world with Numenoreans, Elves, and Dwarves, Tolkien featured men so prominently in his mythology. It's because he knows who his audience is.

Fair point.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Genesis 6

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
² That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
³ And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
⁴ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

---

This seems to indicate that the sons of God found the monkey girls sexy, and had the anatomy and DNA to breed with them.

Genesis 3
²² And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

These sons of God did not have immortality unless they ate of that special fruit from the tree of life.

 

[Tigers!]

Getting back to the OP.

The creation date/time of the angels is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible.
Most likely days are 1, 2 or 3 with 1 or 3 being the most popular(?).
If on day 1 after the creation of light and the beginning of the physical universe.
If on day 3 before the the foundations of the earth were laid as they are mentioned as witnessing that event.

Psalms 104 is a more detailed account of the early days of creation. V4 tells of the creation of angels.

 

[James Brown]

Psalms 104 is a more detailed account of the early days of creation. V4 tells of the creation of angels.

For a certain definition of "more detailed."

Verse 4: Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire.

I'll wager that biblical scholars don't agree on what that means. To me it sounds more poetic than explanatory. Even the mythical language of Genesis 1 carries more explanatory power.

Incidentally, the very next verse reads:

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

This verse is the foundation for the modern-day geocentrists' belief that in fact is is the Earth that is stationary, and that the sun, planets, and entire universe revolves around it. After all, it says so right there in the Bible, and they have gifs to prove it. Naturally, this theory isn't taken seriously by anyone who knows how telescopes and Foucalt Pendulums work, including Young-Earth Creationists.

So when hard-core YEC Biblical Fundamentalists say that Psalm 104 can be taken way too literally, I would caution anyone pointing to verse 4 as some sort of biological treatise on the origin of angelic beings.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Do angels fart?

 

[Rhea]

Do angels fart?

Where did you think their souls went?

 

[Rhea]

Psalms 104 is a more detailed account of the early days of creation. V4 tells of the creation of angels.

For a certain definition of "more detailed."

Verse 4: Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire.

Tigers!, that is what you call detailed?
It doesn't even say he created them, only that he makes their spirits.

I feel like it kind of doesn't provide any detail or even a clear case of "created," or when.

 

[Rhea]

Getting back to the OP.

The creation date/time of the angels is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

question: Why do you supposed this was considered unimportant? I feel like an answer to whether the god of the bible actually created the angels is critical to understanding whether he is a true god and whether there was a true creation. Do you think biblical scholars don't find this important? Or are there lots of writings about it?

Most likely days are 1, 2 or 3 with 1 or 3 being the most popular(?).

What evidence or argument is used to determine this? What do the people who think this say is their reason?

If on day 1 after the creation of light and the beginning of the physical universe.

Again, curious about why they think this

If on day 3 before the the foundations of the earth were laid as they are mentioned as witnessing that event.

Again, curious about why they think this


Since Angels are a hugely important part of the theology and make multiple appearances in the bible and are called as being experienced by humans all over today, including their identification as the current manifestation of dead humans, it seems like this is pretty critical. Is it just me?

 

[Learner]

Do angels fart?

Don't hold your breath ... if you're erm... expecting a serious answer

 

[Learner]

For a certain definition of "more detailed."

Tigers!, that is what you call detailed?
It doesn't even say he created them, only that he makes their spirits.

I feel like it kind of doesn't provide any detail or even a clear case of "created," or when.

You mean you couldn't determine that, when its written, that God created the "heavens and earth" , being the Alpha and the Omega and there being no mention of angels having that ability to create or do such things? You don't have to be a believer to figure out, at the least, the gist of the theme .