When Literalists have to literally lie to sell their literal truth (AKA Adventures in Ark-itecture)

[blastula]

Was everyone who was exterminated in the flood evil doers guilty of capital crimes, even all the unborn?

When the allied forces flying over Germany were dropping bombs while on their way to save the Jews did they think about the German babies underneath? What is the moral issue in comparison?

God will sort it in the end is what the gospels all about.

So, God is no more moral than humans at war? All powerful God had no other alternative than worldwide genocide?

 

[Learner]

So, God is no more moral than humans at war? All powerful God had no other alternative than worldwide genocide?

Our morals are not the same as Gods. Besides man/Israelites has made covenants while swearing on their lives but keeps breaking them time and time again. Since God does not back down fron his word or 'break contracts' even if it pains him, he follows through.


There is another way. God is so loving that he put in a mighty clause to make it easier on us all and himself (forgive me Lord).

He sent Jesus !

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Which is the trouble with gods. They choose so often to inflict suffering or to allow suffering. They claim great power yet throw tantrums and get their feelings hurt and seek vengeance all out of proportion to any perceived slight. If I am touching the stove and the stove gets hot, I stop touching the stove. God would uncreate heat and freeze the planet to death.

Christians - Don't do evil things is all he asked

And he is constantly and inevitably let down. And then he must, MUST, punish innocent people who did no evil at all. People don't want to do bad things and God doesn't want to do bad things and God has the power to stop bad things happening and doesn't.

Why should it be left for man to figure out or fix?

We are evidence here on the forum who have figured it out who understand suffering, killing, poverty and so on.

Yes, and they did so without a god.

We know it and what we would like done to ease that pain but others don't and even try to oppose it.

But opposition is no problem for God. Surely a god who can flood the world can cure psychopathy and sociopathy.

So god can never be wrong?

He said himself he regretted making man on earth after learning to sin.

So how do you know everything else he has said is not also regretful to him? There have been no new additions to the book. How do you know that he isn't regretful right now? If you'll notice, he regrets stuff, but he doesn't fix stuff. When I broke one of my brother's model cars, sorry wasn't getting it. I had to open Peggy and buy him a new one. Am I more responsible than than God?

Meaning he did give us freewill.

That he knew we would make bad decisions with and he would have to punish us. That's sick dear. I mean, everybody is entitled to their kink, but there are limits and consent matters.

BTW, he didn't uncreate earth. He killed nearly everything on it, including babies and animals who had not sinned against him.

Babies will not remember, no one will remember pain or suffering when in Gods world.

So if a person kills all the babies, there should be no arrest, no trial, no conviction, no punishment? Are we to hold fallible man to a higher moral standard than an all powerful god?

He kept the world .

So that he can destroy it at a later date.

Here's the thing. Would you ever do any of these things. If not, you are more moral than you god.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes, I read the same wiki article. They are believed to have been so used by the same people who believe that there were such a thing as the 'Hanging Gardens.'

If you put enough of them in a series, you can indeed lift water high. But space in the ark is limited, isn't it?

Rather than putting them in a series you put them in a zig zag like a flight of stairs changing direction each level.

Learner, that's still using the pumps in a series... One up lift X high to a reservoir, a second pump lifts the lifted water a second X high... Changing direction is not the issue.

 

[bigfield]

No, they couldn't have, as these things were not invented yet. Copper age technology.

The archimedian screw was named after Archimedes, who lived THOUSANDS of years after this flood allegedly happened. Even though it probably existed earlier, there is no reason to think that it would have been available to people who hadn't mastered iron or bronze...

The Flood event would have reset the clock on human knowledge and technical know how. A lot of existing information would have been destroyed. Imagine if every book and every bit of digital information disappeared in a global cataclysm. And all bar 8 people were anihilated. How long do you think it would take before the next Leonardo Davinci or Thomas Edison came along?

Considering that humans would have become extinct if it were reduced to a population of eight people, the answer must be 'never'.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, God is no more moral than humans at war? All powerful God had no other alternative than worldwide genocide?

Our morals are not the same as Gods.

Then it would be meaningless to describe God as good or bad, loving or hateful, forgiving or judgmental.
If all of our concepts of morality, and our means to describe those concepts, are useless to predict/understand/explain God's behavior, then they're completely tangential to whatever it is God's doing or why he's doing it.

Seriously, you cannnot have it both ways.

 

[Learner]

And he is constantly and inevitably let down. And then he must, MUST, punish innocent people who did no evil at all. People don't want to do bad things and God doesn't want to do bad things and God has the power to stop bad things happening and doesn't.

Athena, My understanding is ; Yes He can take away the dark emotions and depravities derived from all flesh temptations which is inherent of freewill. Man can be pure and happy and devoted, a creature that loved him back automatically and just that... automatically... no decisive reason or having any real value to that love as 'we all know inside' with our own loved ones and because there is no real meaning of love if it were otherwise. Roboman.

]But opposition is no problem for God. Surely a god who can flood the world can cure psychopathy and sociopathy.

My understanding is He has already provided the means to be healthy ..the knowledge of all our bad habits and how to avoid them. Besides People don't believe in him ,or some shake their fists at him and would no doubt in their minds never believe in miracles of healing or guidance especially from God!

So how do you know everything else he has said is not also regretful to him? There have been no new additions to the book. How do you know that he isn't regretful right now? If you'll notice, he regrets stuff, but he doesn't fix stuff. When I broke one of my brother's model cars, sorry wasn't getting it. I had to open Peggy and buy him a new one. Am I more responsible than than God?

He is still regretful thats the thing this is why he sent his son Jesus. You are responsible for the model car which is what we all have to take responsibility within our own lives one way or the other.

That he knew we would make bad decisions with and he would have to punish us. That's sick dear. I mean, everybody is entitled to their kink, but there are limits and consent matters.

According to the bible this is satans world. (He also escaped the discussion which is what he's good at ). I came across a survey that being a satanist is trendy and rising. Seriously even you feel uneasy with the world and what man is becoming capable to do. The psyche today of the world has an underlining essence that is dangerous to humans.

So that he can destroy it at a later date.

Yes he will destroy the world the unfair world not the Earth!

Here's the thing. Would you ever do any of these things. If not, you are more moral than you god.

Seriously, you cannnot have it both ways.

I believe that there can only be one worthy to be ultimately fair and forgiving. He would need to take the brunt of all blame, all curses, all jokes , or watch as he is put aside for things seemingly more important attractive and tempting. He hopes that people look his way one day 'by their own accord' . God does those things and expects to be hated.

I wouldn't do those things because Jesus says not to .This is why God sent his son. He knows we are weak to temptation and being God true to his word must follow through the laws that he laid down thousands of years ago.

 

[funinspace]

The Flood event would have reset the clock on human knowledge and technical know how. A lot of existing information would have been destroyed. Imagine if every book and every bit of digital information disappeared in a global cataclysm. And all bar 8 people were anihilated. How long do you think it would take before the next Leonardo Davinci or Thomas Edison came along?

In any case, I don't know why bilge pumps would be an issue. A bigger boat would also have greater buoyancy and there's no certainty that it would increasingly leak in proportion to its increased size. Why should we believe that 10 X the size equals 10 X the leakage?

Noah had plenty of time (and help from God) to build a leak free boat - or at the very least a boat which was sufficiently leak resistant to stay afloat long enough. That's not to say the boat wasn't close to capsizing/sinking by the time it hit dry land. By the end of the Flood they may have been praying to God that their boat would make it.

What he says .

Without 18 magic clauses this is beyond silly. The 1909 Wyoming needed steam powered real pumps to keep the leaks down even with steel re-enforcements to the hull. The size is a huge problem. Only ignorance or magic can deal with the massive engineering issues.

Anyway, taking the Bible literally (or as God-breathed), puts this Deluge happening circa 2300-2500 BC, smack dab in the middle of several existing and literate civilizations like the Egyptians, the Sumerians, and the Chinese that never noticed... I am curious as to why you think this should be taken as anything other than a fable (maybe with a morality story within it for the faithful). Some Christians try to explain away the clear ‘father to son’ genealogies within the OT that provide this date, turning the English language on its head, trying to make the Deluge less absurd by trying to put if further into the fog of history. C.S. Lewis is a favorite of many varying Christian sects. Yet, even he stated in ‘God in the Dock’ that the Deluge was a fable. One does not loose one’s faith in the Christian God by giving up impossible components in the Bible. Is Job a literal description of an event or a Godly morality play? When Satan took Jesus up to the mountain top, just how far did he literally see when being shown all the kingdoms? What does a mountain have to do with seeing all the kingdoms on a globe?

 

[Learner]

Learner, that's still using the pumps in a series... One up lift X high to a reservoir, a second pump lifts the lifted water a second X high... Changing direction is not the issue.

You maybe right.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Seriously, you cannnot have it both ways.

I believe that there can only be one worthy to be ultimately fair and forgiving.

If our morals are not God's, then what is the point of saying he's fair or forgiving? What does it MEAN to say God is fair, if by 'fair' he's using a moral standard we can't access?

God can hear two people complaining about their business contract, and judge that one needs to be turned inside out and the other should be boxed in lead and thrown into the sea. And if he says 'That's fair,' how could you quibble?

and being God true to his word must follow through the laws that he laid down thousands of years ago.

When did God ever say that He needed to follow the laws he laid down?

 

[Learner]

Without 18 magic clauses this is beyond silly. The 1909 Wyoming needed steam powered real pumps to keep the leaks down even with steel re-enforcements to the hull. The size is a huge problem. Only ignorance or magic can deal with the massive engineering issues.

Anyway, taking the Bible literally (or as God-breathed), puts this Deluge happening circa 2300-2500 BC, smack dab in the middle of several existing and literate civilizations like the Egyptians, the Sumerians, and the Chinese that never noticed... I am curious as to why you think this should be taken as anything other than a fable (maybe with a morality story within it for the faithful). Some Christians try to explain away the clear ‘father to son’ genealogies within the OT that provide this date, turning the English language on its head, trying to make the Deluge less absurd by trying to put if further into the fog of history. C.S. Lewis is a favorite of many varying Christian sects. Yet, even he stated in ‘God in the Dock’ that the Deluge was a fable. One does not loose one’s faith in the Christian God by giving up impossible components in the Bible. Is Job a literal description of an event or a Godly morality play? When Satan took Jesus up to the mountain top, just how far did he literally see when being shown all the kingdoms? What does a mountain have to do with seeing all the kingdoms on a globe?

Did you learn about these civilizations in school? I'm sure you did. Even Plato mentions floods. But I doubt anyone learnt of the other civilaizations that were also about great dwellings all under the oceans metres deep . like for instance

The Pyramids of Yonaguni-Jima in Japan, Dwarka, Gulf of Cambay in India , Malta in fact all around the world. Not enough data at the moment to conclude everything of mans actual great history.

 

[Learner]

When did God ever say that He needed to follow the laws he laid down?

He said this in many ways. The comandments , promises and punishments. I'm not as articulate as Lion but I think you understand in the bible he keeps warning us.

 

[funinspace]

Without 18 magic clauses this is beyond silly. The 1909 Wyoming needed steam powered real pumps to keep the leaks down even with steel re-enforcements to the hull. The size is a huge problem. Only ignorance or magic can deal with the massive engineering issues.

Anyway, taking the Bible literally (or as God-breathed), puts this Deluge happening circa 2300-2500 BC, smack dab in the middle of several existing and literate civilizations like the Egyptians, the Sumerians, and the Chinese that never noticed... I am curious as to why you think this should be taken as anything other than a fable (maybe with a morality story within it for the faithful). Some Christians try to explain away the clear ‘father to son’ genealogies within the OT that provide this date, turning the English language on its head, trying to make the Deluge less absurd by trying to put if further into the fog of history. C.S. Lewis is a favorite of many varying Christian sects. Yet, even he stated in ‘God in the Dock’ that the Deluge was a fable. One does not loose one’s faith in the Christian God by giving up impossible components in the Bible. Is Job a literal description of an event or a Godly morality play? When Satan took Jesus up to the mountain top, just how far did he literally see when being shown all the kingdoms? What does a mountain have to do with seeing all the kingdoms on a globe?

Did you learn about these civilizations in school? I'm sure you did. Even Plato mentions floods.

Actually, I learned very little about the Sumerians, Egyptians, and Chinese in school. Though I did take a college class on classical Greek history as one of my humanities classes I had to take. I’ve read books on Sumerian and Egyptian archeology as I have an interest in history.

Sure there are lots of flood stories, as it seems to be a common human theme. I’ve even read a portion of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which we have nearly complete copies from 1800 BCE, well before the purported time of Moses. But having lots of differing flood stories doesn’t make the Jewish Deluge any more real. The geological record is quite clear in that there was never a global flood as described in the OT.

But I doubt anyone learnt of the other civilaizations that were also about great dwellings all under the oceans metres deep . like for instance

The Pyramids of Yonaguni-Jima in Japan, Dwarka, Gulf of Cambay in India , Malta in fact all around the world.

Even around 10,000 BC, the sea level was substantially lower (40-60 meters), as the last ice age receded. And there are archaeological ruins like Göbekli Tepe from that time period:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

As far as the ‘ruins’ of Yonaguni Japan, one might as well start chasing for the Loch Ness Monster:
http://ahotcupofjoe.net/2009/03/the-ancient-underwater-ruins-of-yonaguni-japan/

Not enough data is what I am seeing at the moment.

There is plenty of geological data that contradicts the notion of a world engulfing flood in human history, unless one believes in a trickster god.

When do you think this Noah Deluge could have happened?

 

[Sarpedon]

"Even Plato mentions floods?"

That has to be the most asinine statement I've seen in a thread and topic full of them.

Gee, maybe everyone mentions floods because floods happen all over the world.

Last week, my local weatherman mentioned floods, because they were happening.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I would remind everyone that most ancient civilizations were quite uneducated, so they might not have noticed that they all drowned on the same day. Also, the ancient world was a harsh place and thus bred tough and strong-willed groups of people. The fact that they were underwater for forty days and then all the animals they fed on were dead afterwards wouldn't have been seen as an excuse to start lollygagging and not get their work done.

 

[Lion IRC]

No, it's not really 'fair' enough.

Why dat ...


Lol .. no probs Lion I did have to look it up though.

Heaps of people drop the term "Dunning Kruger" into conversations in the context of AvT debate.
But not in an intellectual or academic way. There's nothing analytical going on.
Instead it's almost always used as an epithet to ridicule...guess who?

 

[jonJ]

I would remind everyone that most ancient civilizations were quite uneducated, so they might not have noticed that they all drowned on the same day. Also, the ancient world was a harsh place and thus bred tough and strong-willed groups of people. The fact that they were underwater for forty days and then all the animals they fed on were dead afterwards wouldn't have been seen as an excuse to start lollygagging and not get their work done.

"You call this a Flood? Why, when I were a boy I had to swim to school every single day. And catch me own fish for lunch while I did it!"

 

[Keith&Co.]

There's nothing analytical going on.

Are you sure, or are you just deciding to take it personally, no matter what?

When someone speaks condescendingly about a topic, where they clearly don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and lecture people who ARE experts in the field, DK seems like a likely analysis. When someone's acting in that manner, the DK label isn't used to ridicule someone, but it's a short diagnosis and a likely culprit.

Such as if Lumpenproletariat were to lecture knowingly about things he did not know existed yesterday, as if he were an expert, DK isn't the ridicule. it is, however, acknowledging that his stance on the topic is worthy of ridicule.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I would remind everyone that most ancient civilizations were quite uneducated, so they might not have noticed that they all drowned on the same day. Also, the ancient world was a harsh place and thus bred tough and strong-willed groups of people. The fact that they were underwater for forty days and then all the animals they fed on were dead afterwards wouldn't have been seen as an excuse to start lollygagging and not get their work done.

"You call this a Flood? Why, when I were a boy I had to swim to school every single day. And catch me own fish for lunch while I did it!"

Plus, this explains what happened to all the aquatic dinosaurs. They were strangled and eaten by the ancient humans who were sitting there treading water and not pussying out just because of the minor annoyance of their planet being under water. Compare that to the "men" of today who need a decaffe latte and a motivational tape if their wi-fi connection stops working.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And he is constantly and inevitably let down. And then he must, MUST, punish innocent people who did no evil at all. People don't want to do bad things and God doesn't want to do bad things and God has the power to stop bad things happening and doesn't.

Athena, My understanding is ; Yes He can take away the dark emotions and depravities derived from all flesh temptations which is inherent of freewill. Man can be pure and happy and devoted, a creature that loved him back automatically and just that... automatically... no decisive reason or having any real value to that love as 'we all know inside' with our own loved ones and because there is no real meaning of love if it were otherwise. Roboman.

As opposed to Blackmailed Man, which according the Faith, is what he is now. God does not want contented good people, but flawed people He can bribe with heaven and threaten with hell and in the end, on a righteous judgement day, damn in multitudes to infinite torture in order to pay for finite sins. And all the while, He loves us all. Your God is sick. And as for love, God created that too and could with but a whisper on the wind instill it in all of us along with a great value of it, no suffering necessary.

]But opposition is no problem for God. Surely a god who can flood the world can cure psychopathy and sociopathy.

My understanding is He has already provided the means to be healthy ..the knowledge of all our bad habits and how to avoid them.

Where pray tell? Divine providence hidden is no provision, it is nothing but a cruel parlor game played for the amusement of a crueler gamesman.

Besides People don't believe in him ,or some shake their fists at him and would no doubt in their minds never believe in miracles of healing or guidance especially from God!

People's disbelief comes from the God. He has but to make himself know, not in signs and wonders, but in blatant acts that leave no question. Your God demands we take His existence on faith, then plagues us all with reason which demands we doubt. Your God is sick.

So how do you know everything else he has said is not also regretful to him? There have been no new additions to the book. How do you know that he isn't regretful right now? If you'll notice, he regrets stuff, but he doesn't fix stuff. When I broke one of my brother's model cars, sorry wasn't getting it. I had to open Peggy and buy him a new one. Am I more responsible than than God?

He is still regretful thats the thing this is why he sent his son Jesus.

That was 2000 years ago. What has He done lately? and why send His son? Why torture His son? Why must there be a blood sacrifice? Why all the suffering when with a wave of his hand, suffering could be no more? Which is what will happen after we all stand the test the judgement. A new heaven and new earth where the wicked shall cease from troubling and the weary shall be at rest. After that great gettin' up morning, for all eternity God will be surrounded by loving and good people who will praise him forever and never wane, never tire. Like Robomen.

You are responsible for the model car which is what we all have to take responsibility within our own lives one way or the other.

But your God is responsible for nothing and to no one. He can and according to the Book has, caused great suffering and madness in the world, all of it unnecessary. Your God is sick.

That he knew we would make bad decisions with and he would have to punish us. That's sick dear. I mean, everybody is entitled to their kink, but there are limits and consent matters.

According to the bible this is satans world.

God created the world and Satan. If Satan owns the world, it is by God's will. What kind of father turns his children and their home over to the enemy?

(He also escaped the discussion which is what he's good at ).

That is because we are not discussing Ole Slewfoot, we are discussing his father.

I came across a survey that being a satanist is trendy and rising. Seriously even you feel uneasy with the world and what man is becoming capable to do. The psyche today of the world has an underlining essence that is dangerous to humans.

What do you mean today? You know of time when evil did not exist in the world? People do profane things. People do profound things. And this has been true ever since there have been people. The only difference today is that WE can bring about the end of the world, no deity required.

So that he can destroy it at a later date.

Yes he will destroy the world the unfair world not the Earth!

Revelation 21:1

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.

Here's the thing. Would you ever do any of these things. If not, you are more moral than you god.

Seriously, you cannnot have it both ways.

I believe that there can only be one worthy to be ultimately fair and forgiving. He would need to take the brunt of all blame, all curses, all jokes , or watch as he is put aside for things seemingly more important attractive and tempting. He hopes that people look his way one day 'by their own accord' . God does those things and expects to be hated.

I wouldn't do those things because Jesus says not to .This is why God sent his son. He knows we are weak to temptation and being God true to his word must follow through the laws that he laid down thousands of years ago.