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When's the last time you heard something new from the Christians?

Another point is how there are no glitches in the universe. For example, sometimes people's computers freeze and they restart it and it works again. The universe doesn't work this way. It goes on without a hitch. No way mindless laws can be better at making a perfect system than a human mind actually focused on making that perfect system.

So, two galaxies colliding doesn't qualify as a glitch? I suppose to define what a 'glitch' would look like, one would have to first define what the 'purpose' of the universe is.
 
When a 9-volt battery dies, it fails to produce energy.

When a certain kind of star dies, it violently explodes, destroying everything in a huge area.

Couldn't that be seen as a glitch?
 
“No way mindless laws can be better at making a perfect system than a human mind actually focused on making that perfect system.”

That’s possibly the funniest thing I’ve ever read on the internet.
 
“No way mindless laws can be better at making a perfect system than a human mind actually focused on making that perfect system.”

That’s possibly the funniest thing I’ve ever read on the internet.
Now this is something that could start a good derail! ;)

Two words: Butterfly wombs.
 
Politesse said:
I don't see the flood much differently from any other secular scholar. I suppose by the logic of this thread, I ought to be arguing with excreationist about this, but I don't really care a lot about the issue and I learned long ago that arguing with creationists is a bit like arguing with brick walls, except that in the case of actual brick walls, sledgehammers are actually pretty effective. I note that we did have a conversation on this forum about the Gilgamesh version of this mythic motif, not very long ago.

I was using it as an illustrative example not an implication that this is what all christians believe. It was an example of the SORT of "new" christian idea that commonly comes up: merely a retread of an old one, tailored for the contemporary audience, and with no new evidence to support it. We have noticed that creationists do this constantly. While I certainly think your ideas are more respectable, I don't see them as being fundamentally different: they remain a retread of old ideas, with some of the more objectionable ones discarded, to tailor it to the contemporary audience. Perhaps if a christian were to rigorously reexamine christian theology and scripture on the basis of previous mythology, and seriously discuss the implications of that, that would be an interesting and 'new' approach. Comparing Noah's flood to Gilgamesh's is a good start, but do you explore the implications of that? If one major story in the bible simply a borrowing of an untrue story from a neighboring culture, how do you know other stories aren't also? I suspect the reason christians don't do this rigorously is because they don't like where it would lead. It is much easier to dismiss the occasional story as a borrowing and think no more about it.
That would not be a very new idea; that comparison and discussion has been vigorously ongoing ever since Gilgamesh was first discovered. Indeed, when George Smith produced his final annotated translation, he titled it "the Chaldean Account of Genesis". You might find the classic exegetical textbook "Old Testament Parallels" interesting; it contains an exhaustive review of those sections of the Hebrew Scriptures that are linked to other ANE manuscripts either by topic or genre, from cover to cover.
 
When a 9-volt battery dies, it fails to produce energy.

When a certain kind of star dies, it violently explodes, destroying everything in a huge area.

Couldn't that be seen as a glitch?

But where would all the interesting elements come from, if we didn't have crazy starsplosions? Don't get me wrong, I love hydrogen as well as the next man, but you need some damn variety in a galaxy.
 
When a 9-volt battery dies, it fails to produce energy.

When a certain kind of star dies, it violently explodes, destroying everything in a huge area.

Couldn't that be seen as a glitch?

But where would all the interesting elements come from, if we didn't have crazy starsplosions?
Planet spores. Star seeds. Spontaneous inneresting elementalism.

Reaaly, the perfect Plan is that energy sources 'splode to make new sources? No matter what mightbbe happening on an orbital body in orbit? A universe by Micheal Bay?
 
Then there's the laws of physics. No scientist has ever explained how the laws came into being, just that there are laws. The question of, "How, if there is no mind involved with the laws, does water freeze at 32 degrees fahrenheit instead of some other degree?" and questions like this, are unanswerable in a materialistic universe. All they can say is "that's just when it freezes" with no explanation. Mindless laws? No way.

Claiming that "God did it" doesn't actually explain anything, because the Christian is attributing an unknown process (how the laws were created) to an agent (God) who is defined in such vague terms as to be meaningless.

What is the difference between one scientist saying "that's just when it freezes" and another scientist saying "that's just how God made it"?
 
When a 9-volt battery dies, it fails to produce energy.

When a certain kind of star dies, it violently explodes, destroying everything in a huge area.

Couldn't that be seen as a glitch?

But where would all the interesting elements come from, if we didn't have crazy starsplosions?
Planet spores. Star seeds. Spontaneous inneresting elementalism.

Reaaly, the perfect Plan is that energy sources 'splode to make new sources? No matter what mightbbe happening on an orbital body in orbit? A universe by Micheal Bay?

But explosions are... fun? If we can't evolve an interstellar society before our star wigs out, that's really on us. Bit sad about the penguins though.
 
I believe I did read that in college. It is a fine scholarly work for what it is. There's a bit of a difference between catalogueing something (which is fine, useful and good) and fully exploring the implications of something, which I think is where theologians fear to tread. This book can be read both ways: you could interpret it as the Bible being imitated, not vice versa.

For example, it seems that you think the Flood is both untrue and a borrowing from another culture (I agree with both statements). The unexplored (by theologians) implications are important: If the Bible is a synthesis of myths of other cultures, on what basis does one's religion rest? How do we know that other important stories are also not borrowed? Do they really ask these tough questions, and does this thought manage to filter into everyday religious practice? I have no doubt that scholars are aware of these things. I just do not see anyone taking the next steps. I have a feeling that most people who DID take the next steps are now atheists. Believe me, I was a christian when I first read Gilgamesh.
 
For example, it seems that you think the Flood is both untrue and a borrowing from another culture (I agree with both statements).
Depends on what you look on myths to do. Are they meant to be history books? They are often treated that way, and not just by Christians certainly, but do those who see them that way profit by that perspective, or miss the point of storytelling altogether? There's more than one way for something to be true. With something as enormous and world-spanning as the Flood motif, I think it is more interesting to ask why so many peoples find meaning about near-complete but not quite complete global destruction compelling. There is, in my opinion, room for more than one "correct" answer to this question, and the motif clearly has not outlived its applicability, because traditional religion in the Euro-American sphere is seemingly on life support but our taste for apocalyptic narratives has in no way diminished. Observe half of our popular films at any given moment. Who lives, who dies, what is forgotten, what survives? A given Flood narrative is a snapshot of its patron culture's answer to that question. The Hebrews used it to kill off their demigods...

The unexplored (by theologians) implications are important
Have you actually looked into this? There are no shortage of explorations of the Flood narrative by non-literalist and literalist scholars alike. I note that even those who see the Bible as a literal account frequently read symbolic and allegorical meanings into the text, not all of which are contingent on historical claims being validated. They claim as a matter of professional distaste to eschew symbolic interpretations, but if you actually listen to a sermon from these folks, symbols and allegories are just as rife in the explanation as they would be at a UCC of a Sunday. Does a rainbow have to literally be seen for the first time in 4004 BC in order to have symbolic weight as a representation of paired destruction and protection?

If the Bible is a synthesis of myths of other cultures, on what basis does one's religion rest? How do we know that other important stories are also not borrowed?
If someone does not understand that "the Bible" is a borrowing from at least two other cultures, they can't have read it. Most of it is set in ancient Judea and Israel. What is inherently wrong with being borrowed? I know that aesthetically we have a wicked cult of novelty going these days, but it's actually not all that "Biblical" a perspective to say that a thing must be new in order to be valuable. The stories in question imply quite the opposite in fact; most of the heroes of the narrative after the end of Genesis are priests, prophets, or kings who rediscover old truths, not invent new ones.
 
Planet spores. Star seeds. Spontaneous inneresting elementalism.

Reaaly, the perfect Plan is that energy sources 'splode to make new sources? No matter what mightbbe happening on an orbital body in orbit? A universe by Micheal Bay?

But explosions are... fun?
oh, yeah, don't get me wrong! Explosions, or the threat thereof is my career. But when WE install a glass parking lot, we can point to the chain of choices we made to make that happen.
If you want to say the Universe is a made thing, and compare it to made things, the artifact explosions tend to be few and far between.
If we can't evolve an interstellar society before our star wigs out, that's really on us. Bit sad about the penguins though.
Oh, intercourse the Penguin.
 
Tell me, do you believe Jesus was literally crucified, died, and resurrected? Or were those story elements simply borrowed from another source, as you seem to have no problem with the flood being borrowed from another source?

ETA: The definition of your beliefs you provided in the other thread renders this discussion largely moot.
 
Then there's the laws of physics. No scientist has ever explained how the laws came into being, just that there are laws. The question of, "How, if there is no mind involved with the laws, does water freeze at 32 degrees fahrenheit instead of some other degree?" and questions like this, are unanswerable in a materialistic universe. All they can say is "that's just when it freezes" with no explanation. Mindless laws? No way.

Claiming that "God did it" doesn't actually explain anything, because the Christian is attributing an unknown process (how the laws were created) to an agent (God) who is defined in such vague terms as to be meaningless.

What is the difference between one scientist saying "that's just when it freezes" and another scientist saying "that's just how God made it"?

Because one would be RANDOM and one would be made by God. Atheists love to say, "The universe is not random! It follows laws!" So, basically, the universe RANDOMLY made up its own laws and follows them? They love to say, "There were no laws at the Big Bang! It was all chaos! Then after the Big Bang we got the laws!"

WHAT?!?!
 
Then there's the laws of physics. No scientist has ever explained how the laws came into being, just that there are laws. The question of, "How, if there is no mind involved with the laws, does water freeze at 32 degrees fahrenheit instead of some other degree?" and questions like this, are unanswerable in a materialistic universe. All they can say is "that's just when it freezes" with no explanation. Mindless laws? No way.

Claiming that "God did it" doesn't actually explain anything, because the Christian is attributing an unknown process (how the laws were created) to an agent (God) who is defined in such vague terms as to be meaningless.

What is the difference between one scientist saying "that's just when it freezes" and another scientist saying "that's just how God made it"?

Because one would be RANDOM and one would be made by God. Atheists love to say, "The universe is not random! It follows laws!" So, basically, the universe RANDOMLY made up its own laws and follows them? They love to say, "There were no laws at the Big Bang! It was all chaos! Then after the Big Bang we got the laws!"

WHAT?!?!

Citation fucking needed...
 
Then there's the laws of physics. No scientist has ever explained how the laws came into being, just that there are laws. The question of, "How, if there is no mind involved with the laws, does water freeze at 32 degrees fahrenheit instead of some other degree?" and questions like this, are unanswerable in a materialistic universe. All they can say is "that's just when it freezes" with no explanation. Mindless laws? No way.

Claiming that "God did it" doesn't actually explain anything, because the Christian is attributing an unknown process (how the laws were created) to an agent (God) who is defined in such vague terms as to be meaningless.

What is the difference between one scientist saying "that's just when it freezes" and another scientist saying "that's just how God made it"?

Because one would be RANDOM and one would be made by God. Atheists love to say, "The universe is not random! It follows laws!" So, basically, the universe RANDOMLY made up its own laws and follows them? They love to say, "There were no laws at the Big Bang! It was all chaos! Then after the Big Bang we got the laws!"

WHAT?!?!

You seem to be confusing legally legislated laws (or god given laws?) and physical laws. Physical laws are simply a description of how things actually react. It wasn't that there were no physical laws "at the big bang" but that, since we can't observe it, we can only project from what we do know to how things would have reacted. "We don't know yet" does not translate to "god did it".


BTW: I like Half-Life as a screen name.
 
Because one would be RANDOM and one would be made by God. Atheists love to say, "The universe is not random! It follows laws!" So, basically, the universe RANDOMLY made up its own laws and follows them? They love to say, "There were no laws at the Big Bang! It was all chaos! Then after the Big Bang we got the laws!"

WHAT?!?!

You seem to be confusing legally legislated laws (or god given laws?) and physical laws. Physical laws are simply a description of how things actually react. It wasn't that there were no physical laws "at the big bang" but that, since we can't observe it, we can only project from what we do know to how things would have reacted. "We don't know yet" does not translate to "god did it".

So you are claiming that no mind had to come up with the laws of thermodynamics? Those laws just do the same thing over and over every single time without fail on their own? Weird. You would think even a few times they would change randomly or something.
 
Because one would be RANDOM and one would be made by God. Atheists love to say, "The universe is not random! It follows laws!" So, basically, the universe RANDOMLY made up its own laws and follows them? They love to say, "There were no laws at the Big Bang! It was all chaos! Then after the Big Bang we got the laws!"

WHAT?!?!

You seem to be confusing legally legislated laws (or god given laws?) and physical laws. Physical laws are simply a description of how things actually react. It wasn't that there were no physical laws "at the big bang" but that, since we can't observe it, we can only project from what we do know to how things would have reacted. "We don't know yet" does not translate to "god did it".

So you are claiming that no mind had to come up with the laws of thermodynamics? Those laws just do the same thing over and over every single time without fail on their own? Weird. You would think even a few times they would change randomly or something.

"On their own?" You say that as if a cup of coffee cools only because it decides to.

"You would think even a few times they would change randomly or something". Why would you think such a thing?
 
So you are claiming that no mind had to come up with the laws of thermodynamics? Those laws just do the same thing over and over every single time without fail on their own? Weird. You would think even a few times they would change randomly or something.

"On their own?" You say that as if a cup of coffee cools only because it decides to.

"You would think even a few times they would change randomly or something". Why would you think such a thing?

Not just coffee. 2 hydrogen molecules combine with an oxygen molecule and you get water. Why do you get water from that and not something else?

These are the questions scientists can't answer.
 
So you are claiming that no mind had to come up with the laws of thermodynamics? Those laws just do the same thing over and over every single time without fail on their own? Weird. You would think even a few times they would change randomly or something.

"On their own?" You say that as if a cup of coffee cools only because it decides to.

"You would think even a few times they would change randomly or something". Why would you think such a thing?

Not just coffee. 2 hydrogen molecules combine with an oxygen molecule and you get water. Why do you get water from that and not something else?
because a molecule of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom in a covalent bond is what water is. You were expecting kumquats?
These are the questions scientists can't answer.
No. These are questions that scientists understand quite well. You not understanding it is quite another matter.
 
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