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Where I expose my ignorance of elemental economics

That is inaccurate. There is no "it" in terms of a single universally accepted price index because no one thinks that a single index can measure all the complexities of economic reality. Using one price index to description or measure inflation is analogous to using weight and only weight to measure or describe an elephant.
But to say for absolutely certain that in the billion transactions we have in a year that inflation is exactly X is funny.
No one with an ounce of knowledge about indices would ever say such a thing.

It's used when we saw people are better off/the same, or worse off than we were X amount of years ago. Comparing cross generations along with cross cross countries isn't that easy.
"Isn't easy" does not translate into "requires a guess". It is simply unreasonable to expect any single index of economic activity to answer the question "Are you better or worse off". A price index can be used to determine with the purchasing power of nominal income has changed, but even that is a rather limited indicator of well-being. It is not the fault of a tool if it is either misused or misunderstood.


It's just a good indicator in short time of price changes but it drifts over time but we definitely use it when we say people are better or worse off then they were X years ago. Computers/Cell Phones,and other things just weren't around 30 years ago.
 
It's just a good indicator in short time of price changes but it drifts over time but we definitely use it when we say people are better or worse off then they were X years ago.
No, it may have fewer technical problems with its use, but its misuse is not the problem of the tool but the user.
Computers/Cell Phones,and other things just weren't around 30 years ago.
So? There is no single index that can quantify changes in well-being. It is foolish/unfair to misplace that burden onto a single indicator.
 
But LD, what about the fry cooks!?

It is an interesting question to ask

No, not really.

since supposedly the fry cooks of today are much worse than the fry cooks 30 years ago.

Well, they certainly are having a harder time making ends meet today than they did 30 years ago. But that's probably just because they are lazy and need less money in order to encourage them to work harder while their bosses need more money through tax cuts to keep encouraging them to work harder.
 
It is an interesting question to ask

No, not really.

since supposedly the fry cooks of today are much worse than the fry cooks 30 years ago.

Well, they certainly are having a harder time making ends meet today than they did 30 years ago. But that's probably just because they are lazy and need less money in order to encourage them to work harder while their bosses need more money through tax cuts to keep encouraging them to work harder.


So back then fry cooks were living in 30,000 square foot mansions wil 75 inch TVS and swimming pools but now they don't have any of those things?
 
A fry cook is the only person in a first world country who works all day within a few inches of 375 degree flammable liquid and will work for minimum wage. There is a constant hazard of fire and serious burns. If this cook were doing a similar job in a machine shop or chemical plant, they would be required to wear protective gear for eyes and skin. Most fry cooks get an apron.

The economics of a fry cook are really simple. The greatest economic loss he/she can cause in an ordinary day is the loss of a batch of fries. A chemical plant worker can cause a half million dollar loss in an afternoon, if he's not paying attention.

The more a person is paid, most of the money is spent for things he doesn't do.
 
A fry cook is the only person in a first world country who works all day within a few inches of 375 degree flammable liquid and will work for minimum wage. There is a constant hazard of fire and serious burns. If this cook were doing a similar job in a machine shop or chemical plant, they would be required to wear protective gear for eyes and skin. Most fry cooks get an apron.

The economics of a fry cook are really simple. The greatest economic loss he/she can cause in an ordinary day is the loss of a batch of fries. A chemical plant worker can cause a half million dollar loss in an afternoon, if he's not paying attention.

The more a person is paid, most of the money is spent for things he doesn't do.


I am trying to look up the stats, but how to workplace injuries/fatalities in the the fry cook business compare to between 1975 and 2015?
 
I was with you till the very end where I would reverse the phrasing - it's generally not a problem if you have so much stuff as much as it's a problem if they have so little.

The failing of free market economics is that it does not differentiate between beneficial production that helps society flourish and unnecessary growth of production of useless polluting products that end up a gross negative in terms of our environment. A dollar is a dollar perhaps, but some dollars buy things that are good for us and some buy things that ultimately make us sick, are unsafe, and inefficient regardless of how cheap the item may be, some production is a gross negative for society and skews free market values toward things like warfare, hoola hoops, strip mining, and sky scrapers. Just think about what I am saying here. GNP can be good or it can be gross national pollution.

All free market calculations under classic economic theory lack a moral or social responsibility assessment.
Economics is a subsystem of nature and not the other way around. To regard the world as simply one big supply system that gives her raw materials to us at no cost it to engage in a crazy half cocked notion that man rules the planet and there are no physical laws he cannot violate at will if he is clever enough. Also, if you are in the investment class, there should be no sector of the planet that cannot be turned into a profit center. This free market bullshit has been repeated and repeated over and over again and it is just plain short on REALITY.:thinking:

This is not a failing of the actual economy that we have today. It is yet another reason why the self-regulating free market would fail.

In the government regulated, mixed market economy that we have today, the government can introduce what economists call externalities into the transaction between buyer and sellers, forcing them to pay for roads, schools, etc. by taxing the transactions, forcing them to pay for pollution controls, worker safety, etc. by increasing the cost of the product.

How this would be accomplished in a modern industrial self-regulating free market is either ignored or the explanations are quite absurd. I have been told for example, that a polluting facility would simply negotiate and sign individual contracts with all of the parties affected by the facility's pollution. Then if the facility's pollution harmed anyone that party could sue the facility for breach of contract., Of course, since the class action lawsuit won't be allowed, there would potentially be millions of lawsuits against one facility.

Absurd.
 
I'm reading "Debt" by Donald Graeber, from that it appears there's a lot of myth in economics.
That is a very interesting book by a very interesting thinker. Isn't it "Debt the first 5000 years"? He has so many interesting historical stories about debt in the book. Its a great book, if that's the one.
And it's interesting to look at the IMF in the light of his extensive research

I have read the book, or at least a pre-publication copy that I found. It explains why economists are wrong about barter being the natural form of exchange in history. That the complete opposite is true, that credit was always and everywhere the basis of exchange in history. That our credit based, so-called fiat money system is truer to the natural form of money than the gold standard. And that a credit money system has always required a trusted third party guaranteeing it, like a chieftain, a temple or a government.
 
The GOP after winning the house, tried to mandate the CBO use different measurements in an attempt to get several results allowing them to pick and choose results to avoid the problem of well developed tools that gave them answers they did not want to see.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/b...alculating-economic-impact-of-bills.html?_r=0

This yet another reason why conservatives are not suited to govern and why they were ignored in the golden age of the economy. The problems that are left to the government to solve are the problems created by the status quo. Conservatives defend the status quo and have to develop an elaborate set of lies to explain why something other that the status quo has failed. They are the enemies of facts and the fact gathers.

A college friend of mine worked in the CBO. He took early retirement in 2012 frustrated at the political interference from the house. And he is a mainstream economist.
 
The GOP after winning the house, tried to mandate the CBO use different measurements in an attempt to get several results allowing them to pick and choose results to avoid the problem of well developed tools that gave them answers they did not want to see.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/b...alculating-economic-impact-of-bills.html?_r=0

This yet another reason why conservatives are not suited to govern and why they were ignored in the golden age of the economy. The problems that are left to the government to solve are the problems created by the status quo. Conservatives defend the status quo and have to develop an elaborate set of lies to explain why something other that the status quo has failed. They are the enemies of facts and the fact gathers.

A college friend of mine worked in the CBO. He took early retirement in 2012 frustrated at the political interference from the house. And he is a mainstream economist.


Both sides abuse it. I won't say either one is worse but when scoring ObamaCare they pushed through using the Physician Fix which never gets approved to give it a favorable cost reduction. Sander's plans makes some wild assertions too that like that he can find $1 trillion dollar a year in waste.
 
I just thought I'd chime in and remind everyone how economics works, at least economics in the state or academic sense.

Remember those three starving people stranded on an island when cans of food wash ashore? Remember how the engineer proposes getting the cans open? Remember how the "economist" proposes getting the cans open?

I rest my case.

If economics is really anything, it's certainly nothing more than how a group of people decide to collectively spend resources.
 
The failing of free market economics is that it does not differentiate between beneficial production that helps society flourish and unnecessary growth of production of useless polluting products that end up a gross negative in terms of our environment. A dollar is a dollar perhaps, but some dollars buy things that are good for us and some buy things that ultimately make us sick, are unsafe, and inefficient regardless of how cheap the item may be, some production is a gross negative for society and skews free market values toward things like warfare, hoola hoops, strip mining, and sky scrapers. Just think about what I am saying here. GNP can be good or it can be gross national pollution.

All free market calculations under classic economic theory lack a moral or social responsibility assessment.
Economics is a subsystem of nature and not the other way around. To regard the world as simply one big supply system that gives her raw materials to us at no cost it to engage in a crazy half cocked notion that man rules the planet and there are no physical laws he cannot violate at will if he is clever enough. Also, if you are in the investment class, there should be no sector of the planet that cannot be turned into a profit center. This free market bullshit has been repeated and repeated over and over again and it is just plain short on REALITY.:thinking:

The biggest problem with capitalism is that it's so successful. It's given us time and resources to worry about these problems where we never did before. It's hard to say Columbus cared much about other people if we go by the story that he intentionally used small pox to try and kill off the native population.

It is the evolved mixed mode modern economy, the combination of capitalism and the government, that has been so successful. You and the other supply siders are telling us that we will be even more successful that the economy that produced all of this success if we change to more of a free market by getting the government out of the economy.

And yet when we do try to remove the government from the economy, through deregulation, and it causes massive problems like the savings and loan fiasco or the Great Recession all that we get from you are weak arguments that the problems were caused by the government again, that there was no way that removing regulations or failure to enforce the regulations could possibly cause the exact same problems that caused the regulations to be written in the first place.

When we enact the fiscal policies that you and the supply siders say will boost business investment and improve economic growth and after thirty five years they fail to do either you blame it on unknown factors in the economy and you blame the messenger, the measurements of the economy, even though thirty five years ago the case for supply side economic policies was based on those measurements without question.

- - - Updated - - -

The GOP after winning the house, tried to mandate the CBO use different measurements in an attempt to get several results allowing them to pick and choose results to avoid the problem of well developed tools that gave them answers they did not want to see.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/b...alculating-economic-impact-of-bills.html?_r=0

Both sides have played that game. If one party wants to say that unicorns will come about from their legislation, then CBO has to score it that way. CBO is just a guess.

Do you have any examples of the other party doing the same thing or are you going to leave it at unicorns?

It is more than one instance of the Republicans interfering in research that are contrary to their delusions. Just recently we learned that the Republicans ordered the CDC and the NIH to stop researching the impacts of our ever loosening gun laws.

After 2009 the Republicans ordered the IRS to stop calculating the effective corporate income tax rate, which the IRS reported to be only 12%, even though the normal tax rate was 35%.

The Republican house held hearings on the supposed overstatement of inflation by the cost of living index, the CPI. The House of Representatives finally wrote the instructions in law that the BLS should reduce the index by 1% because the hearings had determined that the BLS calculations overstated consumer cost of living by 1%. Largely by not calling any witnesses who hadn't already announced that they too had the feeling that the CPI overstated the cost of living by at least 1%.

Once again, it is not a question of accuracy, only of precision. It wouldn't matter if the BLS calculation overstated the costs of living by 1% because we are only interested in the year to year change in the costs of living.

If the CBO and their economics is just a guess what economics are you depending on to make your recommendations to increase income inequality even more and to deregulate the economy? Isn't just a guess on your part? Or rather a faith in the possible existence of the free market?

It is unnerving that you haven't thought more critically through the arguments that you present here.
 
Yes, you are correct. It is very hard to come up with ways to accurately measure the economy. But it is more important and much easier to measure the economy in exactly the same way over time. It is the difference between accuracy and precision.

Our economy maybe a 15 or a 20 trillion dollar economy, depending on how you measure it. But no matter how measure, it within reasonable limits, you know how much the economy has grown from year to year by applying the same method of measurement in all of the years.

Your complaints are all hand waving though. The proponents of supply side economics claimed that both business investment and growth would improve. This clearly hasn't happened. It is disingenuous to blame the tools, the measures of growth, for the failure of the policies. The same tools that were used in 1980 to prove the perceived failure in the previous policies.

But we make some profound statements from those when a lot of it is just art. There has been strong criticisms of how unemployment is calculated. Figuring out inflation over a long term is an art and not a science. And the measure used to decide if supply side is successful is how well do fry cooks in 1980 compare to fry cooks in X period of time. Not a good comparison.

No, we are saying that supply side was unsuccessful because it didn't deliver on its promise to improve growth by increasing business investment.

If you don't accept the methodology of measuring business investment, which is pretty much simple addition, and you don't accept the methodology of measuring economic growth what business do you have recommending policy changes to increase investments to increase growth? It pretty much leaves you arguing that we should intentionally increase income inequality by intentionally increasing the incomes of the already rich because it just sounds good to you and no other reason.

Every wealthy child is taught that the wealthy deserve their wealth just by being born into a wealthy family who have wealth because they deserve to have it. Many are taught that the bulk of the total wealth of the nation should be passed down through the generations of the wealthy because only the wealthy know how to handle money. That the 99% will just waste it.

Since you can't make any economic argument for increasing income and wealth inequality, perhaps these are some of the arguments that you believe?
 
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