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Where I expose my ignorance of elemental economics

That is inaccurate. There is no "it" in terms of a single universally accepted price index because no one thinks that a single index can measure all the complexities of economic reality. Using one price index to description or measure inflation is analogous to using weight and only weight to measure or describe an elephant.
But to say for absolutely certain that in the billion transactions we have in a year that inflation is exactly X is funny.
No one with an ounce of knowledge about indices would ever say such a thing.

It's used when we saw people are better off/the same, or worse off than we were X amount of years ago. Comparing cross generations along with cross cross countries isn't that easy.
"Isn't easy" does not translate into "requires a guess". It is simply unreasonable to expect any single index of economic activity to answer the question "Are you better or worse off". A price index can be used to determine with the purchasing power of nominal income has changed, but even that is a rather limited indicator of well-being. It is not the fault of a tool if it is either misused or misunderstood.


It's just a good indicator in short time of price changes but it drifts over time but we definitely use it when we say people are better or worse off then they were X years ago. Computers/Cell Phones,and other things just weren't around 30 years ago.

Yes, but people were communicating with each other before the invention of the cell phone. The cellphone largely replaced the landline phone for an ever increasing number of consumers every year. Therefore the BLS replaced the cost of the line line phone in the calculation of the CPI by normalizing the cost of the cell phone service to what the cost of the line line had been and to the number of the people who had switched over. The end result is that the increase or decrease in the costs of the cell phone service now goes in to the calculation of inflation or deflation for the number of people who have abandoned the land line.

This is how they have handled all of the innovations, increased productivity, increased reliability and changes in consumer's' preferences over the years.

But we don't just blindly accept the CPI. We have other ways of seeing the amount of inflation or deflation that we have across the entire economy. Comparing things to the part that they play in the over all economy, comparing the costs of all automobiles against the size of the overall economy, for example. Year to year, decade to decade it tells us where we are and allows us a check on how well the CPI measures inflation and deflation.

I am ready for the next facetious argument.
 
Seconded.

There is a strong theme developing here that we should run the economy the economy the way that the right wants to run it even though the right doesn't understand how the economy actually works.

That it should be good enough that the right really, really believes that moderate increases in the minimum wage does produce enough unemployment to cancel out the good that it does, for example. That just because they have no way to prove this, with all of the confusing factors that go into the economic mix, somehow proves that they are right about their presumably gut feelings that even moderate increases in the minimum wage hurts the very people it is suppose to help. But of course, no other wage increase results in widespread unemployment.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ates-urge-increase-in-u-s-worker-minimum-wage

Seven recipients of the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences were among 75 economists endorsing an increase in the minimum wage for U.S. workers.
In a letter released today, the group called for the hourly minimum wage to reach $10.10 by 2016 from its current $7.25, and then be indexed for inflation thereafter. They said “the weight” of economic research shows higher pay doesn’t lead to fewer jobs.
Past increases in hourly pay have had “little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market,” the economists wrote. “A minimum wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings.”

----

When you have seven Nobel laureate economists plus others telling us we must raise the minimum wage, this is significant. And utterly ignored by the right. Careful analysis by some of the world's best economists that raising the minimum wage does not have the baleful effects the right claims it does is simply brushed off.

When 10 Nobel prize winning economists told Bush his tax cuts would only create massive deficits, they were ignored and we got massive deficits. The right simply can't get anything right and doesn't do careful analysis. Instead they have ideology and rationalization.


And there are plenty of economists and studies that show the harmful of effects of the min wage increase.
 
That is inaccurate. There is no "it" in terms of a single universally accepted price index because no one thinks that a single index can measure all the complexities of economic reality. Using one price index to description or measure inflation is analogous to using weight and only weight to measure or describe an elephant.
But to say for absolutely certain that in the billion transactions we have in a year that inflation is exactly X is funny.
No one with an ounce of knowledge about indices would ever say such a thing.

It's used when we saw people are better off/the same, or worse off than we were X amount of years ago. Comparing cross generations along with cross cross countries isn't that easy.
"Isn't easy" does not translate into "requires a guess". It is simply unreasonable to expect any single index of economic activity to answer the question "Are you better or worse off". A price index can be used to determine with the purchasing power of nominal income has changed, but even that is a rather limited indicator of well-being. It is not the fault of a tool if it is either misused or misunderstood.


It's just a good indicator in short time of price changes but it drifts over time but we definitely use it when we say people are better or worse off then they were X years ago. Computers/Cell Phones,and other things just weren't around 30 years ago.

Yes, but people were communicating with each other before the invention of the cell phone. The cellphone largely replaced the landline phone for an ever increasing number of consumers every year. Therefore the BLS replaced the cost of the line line phone in the calculation of the CPI by normalizing the cost of the cell phone service to what the cost of the line line had been and to the number of the people who had switched over. The end result is that the increase or decrease in the costs of the cell phone service now goes in to the calculation of inflation or deflation for the number of people who have abandoned the land line.

This is how they have handled all of the innovations, increased productivity, increased reliability and changes in consumer's' preferences over the years.

But we don't just blindly accept the CPI. We have other ways of seeing the amount of inflation or deflation that we have across the entire economy. Comparing things to the part that they play in the over all economy, comparing the costs of all automobiles against the size of the overall economy, for example. Year to year, decade to decade it tells us where we are and allows us a check on how well the CPI measures inflation and deflation.

I am ready for the next facetious argument.

And cell phones do a lot more than that too, How do you compare texting or maps facebook or even a calculator. Remember how your math teacher said you need how to learn how to do basic math because you wouldn't always have a calculator with you? What about voice recognization? These are all things put into the devices that somebody has then to come up with the comparison as before.
 
This yet another reason why conservatives are not suited to govern and why they were ignored in the golden age of the economy. The problems that are left to the government to solve are the problems created by the status quo. Conservatives defend the status quo and have to develop an elaborate set of lies to explain why something other that the status quo has failed. They are the enemies of facts and the fact gathers.

A college friend of mine worked in the CBO. He took early retirement in 2012 frustrated at the political interference from the house. And he is a mainstream economist.


Both sides abuse it. I won't say either one is worse but when scoring ObamaCare they pushed through using the Physician Fix which never gets approved to give it a favorable cost reduction. Sander's plans makes some wild assertions too that like that he can find $1 trillion dollar a year in waste.

They used the Physician fix because it always finally gets approved. A cynic would say that they go through the entire drama of the Physician fix to generate campaign funds from doctors.

There is certainly a lot of waste in our health care system, we spend more than any other modern economy on health care, twice as much as the average and three times more than the lowest. All with generally average outcomes. This is a terribly inefficient system.

And it is not hard to understand why our healthcare system is so inefficient. If you rank the modern economies by the percentage of the health care system that is in the hands of for profit entities it corresponds almost exactly to the order of the list of the most expensive health care countries.

The healthcare system is one of the parts of the economy that doesn't lend itself to the for profit model. It is best and most efficiently handled by professionalism.

It is quite doable. that we could save quite a bit in our annual costs for health care if we went to single payer, Medicare for all. But one trillion dollars a year is overstating the possible savings. We spend about three trillion dollars a year on health care. Saving one trillion dollars a year would require the complete squeezing out of the for profit businesses involved in the healthcare sector, an impossible goal realistically.
 
Both sides abuse it. I won't say either one is worse but when scoring ObamaCare they pushed through using the Physician Fix which never gets approved to give it a favorable cost reduction. Sander's plans makes some wild assertions too that like that he can find $1 trillion dollar a year in waste.

They used the Physician fix because it always finally gets approved. A cynic would say that they go through the entire drama of the Physician fix to generate campaign funds from doctors.

There is certainly a lot of waste in our health care system, we spend more than any other modern economy on health care, twice as much as the average and three times more than the lowest. All with generally average outcomes. This is a terribly inefficient system.

And it is not hard to understand why our healthcare system is so inefficient. If you rank the modern economies by the percentage of the health care system that is in the hands of for profit entities it corresponds almost exactly to the order of the list of the most expensive health care countries.

The healthcare system is one of the parts of the economy that doesn't lend itself to the for profit model. It is best and most efficiently handled by professionalism.

It is quite doable. that we could save quite a bit in our annual costs for health care if we went to single payer, Medicare for all. But one trillion dollars a year is overstating the possible savings. We spend about three trillion dollars a year on health care. Saving one trillion dollars a year would require the complete squeezing out of the for profit businesses involved in the healthcare sector, an impossible goal realistically.

I'm saying the oppposite about the physician fix. Every year they promise to cut the payments to doctors but never do. The promise of cutting payments to doctors was included in the costs even though congress never cuts them.

I think we could easily find that we actually use too much health care in the US and finding ways to ration it will save us money and better care, but we pay our health care officials much more than other countries, so to get costs down we are going to have to pay doctors and nurses a lot less than we actually do. Good luck with that.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ates-urge-increase-in-u-s-worker-minimum-wage

Seven recipients of the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences were among 75 economists endorsing an increase in the minimum wage for U.S. workers.
In a letter released today, the group called for the hourly minimum wage to reach $10.10 by 2016 from its current $7.25, and then be indexed for inflation thereafter. They said “the weight” of economic research shows higher pay doesn’t lead to fewer jobs.
Past increases in hourly pay have had “little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market,” the economists wrote. “A minimum wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings.”

----

When you have seven Nobel laureate economists plus others telling us we must raise the minimum wage, this is significant. And utterly ignored by the right. Careful analysis by some of the world's best economists that raising the minimum wage does not have the baleful effects the right claims it does is simply brushed off.

When 10 Nobel prize winning economists told Bush his tax cuts would only create massive deficits, they were ignored and we got massive deficits. The right simply can't get anything right and doesn't do careful analysis. Instead they have ideology and rationalization.


And there are plenty of economists and studies that show the harmful of effects of the min wage increase.

No there are no GOOD studies that show that. Which was the point of recent debunkings by eminent economists including numerous Nobel Laureates. For another example Australia, with a high minimum wage and low unemployment.


http://www.epi.org/minimum-wage-statement/

July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

...

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front.

--------

http://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster

[h=1]Minimum Wage Mythbusters[/h]
 
I have no idea what you mean. The CPI is one price index and it measures inflation for a fixed weight basket of goods and services. There is no guess work involved. It is no more official than the PCE or GDP deflator.

The CPI has been debated for a long time as having issues, so it's nothing new.

An easy one they have done lately is to take a Sears Catalog from the year you pick, find the average hourly salary at the time and now and compare how how much working time it took to bought those items. When they do it that we found it takes much less time of working to buy the items and we are getting much better choices and quality today.
Really? That is certainly not necessarily true when it comes to fruit, vegetables or clothes.
 
I just thought I'd chime in and remind everyone how economics works, at least economics in the state or academic sense.

Remember those three starving people stranded on an island when cans of food wash ashore? Remember how the engineer proposes getting the cans open? Remember how the "economist" proposes getting the cans open?

I rest my case.

If economics is really anything, it's certainly nothing more than how a group of people decide to collectively spend resources.

Yes, you are quite right. What we are talking about is the distribution of the rewards from the economy. The right says that the already wealthy deserve and therefore should receive all of the annual, real increase in the income from year to year.

But they refuse to admit that this is the result of the economic policies that they push, all of the while admitting that they don't know how the policies that they propose will impact the economy because there are so many factors involved that they just don't understand.

And that anyone who claims to understand those confusing factors is just doing exactly the same thing that the right is doing, guessing that what they feel in their gut is right, not what the economics tells them. They are demonstrably wrong.

We know how economic policies affect the economy because we study the history of the economy. The magnitude of the various factors that they find so confusing are rather easy to quantify as to the degree to which they impact any specific question. The majority of them will effect the question at hand and can be safely ignored.  Thirlwall's Law on the need to have a long term international balance of payments to avoid capital flight has little influence on whether or not a modest increase in the minimum wage will somehow produce widespread unemployment and can be ignored. So we go through all of the economic factors that we know, eliminating those that have no impact on the question at hand.

Surprisingly, considering the right's claimed confusion about all of the economic factors that might affect any particular question, they show no reluctance to suggest one factor that proves at least their theoretical point, even if it is not supported empirically. The point that the number of hires that a company makes is driven by the level of the new hires' wage, not by whether the employer has any work for the new hires to do, for example.
 
The CPI has been debated for a long time as having issues, so it's nothing new.

An easy one they have done lately is to take a Sears Catalog from the year you pick, find the average hourly salary at the time and now and compare how how much working time it took to bought those items. When they do it that we found it takes much less time of working to buy the items and we are getting much better choices and quality today.
Really? That is certainly not necessarily true when it comes to fruit, vegetables or clothes.


Here is a comparison of men's clotheses from 1975

http://cafehayek.com/2012/12/cataloging-our-progress-mens-business-wear-1975-2012.html
 
Really? That is certainly not necessarily true when it comes to fruit, vegetables or clothes.


Here is a comparison of men's clotheses from 1975

http://cafehayek.com/2012/12/cataloging-our-progress-mens-business-wear-1975-2012.html
You cannot be serious - why does the opinion of some random person who blogs on a Hayek site trump anyone else's? That site shows it takes slightly more hours of work to buy low quality clothing. It does not address any other type of clothing nor does it even begin to really address in any rigorous manner the quality issue.
 
It is an art only if you consider statistics as an art. Do you?

Most of the objections that I see from the right about the consumer price index are,

  • That it is wrong and too low because inflation has to be higher because of all of the money that the Fed has created.
  • That it is wrong and too high when used to adjust Social Security benefits because Democrats want to buy votes.

It's a lot of art because people have to make a lot of assumptions when making the decision on quality and replacements. How do you judge a phone? Do you judge it by megapixels and storage space or display size. How much is an iphone 5 better than an iphone 4, etc.

I have a problem with it when comparing long term not short term. And for the second part, I don't have a problem with it being used for SS adjustments, because it's not that big of a deal there.

So you don't have a problem with using the long term growth of business investment and of economic growth. And yet these things show that supply side economics has failed to improve business investment and economic growth but you think that we should continue to intentionally promote income inequality?

I had actually posted the two most common complaints from the right about the CPI in hopes that I could get some explanation about the obvious contradiction in the two. Please comment.

I explained how the BLS accounts for innovations in things like having the cell phone replace land line and pay phones in a post further on, about page 11. Please respond to that post and tell me if that is how you understand the process of updating the CPI and what specific objections that you have to it.

I applaud you for hanging in so long and defending your positions. I know that it isn't an easy thing to do, especially when you are being ganged up on.

I am sorry that I have been so inconsistently here, moderating my own thread. For the third time this year I am once again in the hospital trying to get rid of a pneumonia. I ask for your tolerance.
 
It's a lot of art because people have to make a lot of assumptions when making the decision on quality and replacements. How do you judge a phone? Do you judge it by megapixels and storage space or display size. How much is an iphone 5 better than an iphone 4, etc.

I have a problem with it when comparing long term not short term. And for the second part, I don't have a problem with it being used for SS adjustments, because it's not that big of a deal there.

So you don't have a problem with using the long term growth of business investment and of economic growth. And yet these things show that supply side economics has failed to improve business investment and economic growth but you think that we should continue to intentionally promote income inequality?

I had actually posted the two most common complaints from the right about the CPI in hopes that I could get some explanation about the obvious contradiction in the two. Please comment.

I explained how the BLS accounts for innovations in things like having the cell phone replace land line and pay phones in a post further on, about page 11. Please respond to that post and tell me if that is how you understand the process of updating the CPI and what specific objections that you have to it.

I applaud you for hanging in so long and defending your positions. I know that it isn't an easy thing to do, especially when you are being ganged up on.

I am sorry that I have been so inconsistently here, moderating my own thread. For the third time this year I am once again in the hospital trying to get rid of a pneumonia. I ask for your tolerance.

As I said, I don't have an issue with the contradiction in using CPI for calculating SSI benefits,. They need something and if it's really 2.3% instead of 2.4% not a big difference. But using it to compare how well the poor were 25 years ago, it makes a difference.

They do account for things, but it's an art of what to account for and when to account for them. How much inflation is between a Iphone 5 and an Iphone 6? That makes some major assumptions to figure out.
 
The argument is finding the right balance of. As we saw with full 100% government run economy it fails miserable and 0% yes, but the US is creeping toward the 100% and that's the long term worry that I have, but you won't agree. When Rome expanded and had to increases its taxes, it fell apart, along with other issues. It took the USSR 60 years to fail.

So the best argument that you have is the "slippery slope." The same argument that Hayek use in his book The Road to Serfdom, in 1948 to predict that the European experiment with social democracy doomed them to a future of inevitably turning to communism? That if you are not on the road to 0% freedom you are on the road to 100% communism and slavery?

How did that prediction work out?

And it totally ignores the simple fact that for the last thirty five years our economic policies have been dominated by your conservatives and your conservative thinking. That the country as a whole has become much more conservative in that time with the Republican party tipped heavily now to reactionary policies, that is, to rolling back the social gains of minorities, women and the LGBT community. That they are posed right now to go even further to the right into fascism with Trump. This is not a slippery slope that I am imagining, it is what is happening right now.

That it is getting so bad that the greatest evil that conservatives have to complain about was mainstream conservative thought just ten years ago, ObamaCare. A program first proposed by the Heritage Foundation and first put into place by the Republican presidential candidate in 2012, Mitt Romney when he was the governor of Massachusetts.

Slippery slope arguments always are intellectually deficient. They assume that we have no control over our future. That is wrong, leave these arguments alone. They cheapen the discussion.

Do you have any examples of the other party doing the same thing or are you going to leave it at unicorns?

It is more than one instance of the Republicans interfering in research that are contrary to their delusions. Just recently we learned that the Republicans ordered the CDC and the NIH to stop researching the impacts of our ever loosening gun laws.

I gave you two examples. When calculating the cost of ObamaCare the Democrats used the Physician Fix to help control costs, but nobody actually believed they could do the Physician fix. Several leading economists came out and said Sanders budget is way too rosy.

I answered your complaint about the Physician Fix. They assumed that they could factor in the Physician Fix because they always have passed it. Besides the Physician Fix has to do with Medicare, not ObamaCare. (The so-called Physician Fix or Doc Fix was finally made permanent in 2014, ending the annual circus.)

In general ObamaCare is less expensive to the federal budget than the authors predicted that it would be. In no small part because of the SCOTUS and their odd ruling that allowed Republican governors to prevent the poor in their states from receiving federal government subsidized health care. They are purportedly afraid that a future Congress will cut off the federal government subsidy, probably because the Republicans have promised to do this if they can, and that they will have to continue to provide Medicaid to the poor in their state. So they are taking the illogical step of denying medical care to the poor of their state now when the federal government will pay for it to prevent something that might happen.

If the CBO and their economics is just a guess what economics are you depending on to make your recommendations to increase income inequality even more and to deregulate the economy? Isn't just a guess on your part? Or rather a faith in the possible existence of the free market?

We've done very little to deregulate the economy. The one deregulation you worried about actually was beneficial to the companies that did and the ones who stayed one side of the banking sector were the problems.

The deregulation that I worry about was the failure to enforce the regulations that caused the Great Financial Crisis and Recession. And it was certainly profitable to the banks who made a short term profit from it and then were saved from their excesses when the Bush administration bailed them out by giving them all of their profits and all of their bonuses. This is why the financial sector must be regulated. They can make huge short term profits from the disruptions that they are allowed to cause.

That we haven't made too much progress on deregulation is because of two things;

  1. The small amount of deregulation that we have done has been for the most part a disaster, reference the savings and loan fiasco and the Great Financial Crisis and Recession.
  2. That the fact that Republican administrations up until Bush II still wrote and enforced regulations wasn't a retreat from conservative orthodoxy as it was a concession that regulations are really needed.

Yes, deregulating the airlines gained the people who live in large cities reduced air fares. Their higher fares during the period of regulation were higher because like the railroads before them they were effectively subsidizing the passengers from smaller cities and towns. After deregulation the implicit subsidies from the bigger cities were only partially replaced with explicit subsidies for the smaller airports and cities.

And yes, the costs of long distance calls dropped dramatically because, once again, the cost of unlimited local phone service was being subsidized by the long distance calls.

If this satisfying to you and proves that deregulation is beneficial then you are much easier to please than I am.
 
The inheritance tax has always been a small % of total tax revenue.

As for capital gains--are you not aware that the capital gains tax is a subcase of the income tax? Most loopholes that applied to income tax also applied to capital gains.

I understand all of that.

The inheritance tax is important because it lessens the amount of money that is captured by the wealthy and redistributes it into the real economy of producing products for consumption. The wealth of the wealthy does little to nothing to boost the economy that 99% of the population depends on to live. The money of the wealthy is in the stock market, T-Bills, etc. that don't help the economy or in corporate bonds that are issued by corporations to try to avoid a few percentage points in interest over what a bank would charge them for a loan.

In other words, eat the rich.

Convert capital to consumer spending--so there won't be capital for the next generation.

Lower tax rate for capital gains is just one of the ways devised over the years to defeat the progressive income tax. In essence corporations become tax havens for the wealthy.

No. From a practical standpoint the capital gains rate is higher than the income tax rate. How about taxing capital gains as ordinary income but inflation adjust the basis value? Few on the right would object to this.

This is why I am a proponent of abandoning the corporate income tax and taxing the corporate profits as the personal income of the shareholders at whatever rate that they pay. It would relieve corporation management of having to run the financial side of the corporation as a tax haven, of having to maximize capital gains and minimizing income. It would relieve a lot of the legalized bribery that goes to politicians to write exemptions for specific corporations into the tax code. It would sharpen their focus back to making a good product and selling it for a fair price.

In other words, companies can't engage in growth instead of paying dividends.

The main advantage of the corporate income tax is for countries with a positive trade balance. In effect you are taxing the foreigners who buy the products of your country. This advantage could be duplicated easily if we treated the distributed profits of a corporation exactly the same way that we do wages, by withholding a percentage of the distribution and forcing the recipients to file income tax forms to retrieve it.

You're assuming the recipients are individuals.
 
And there are plenty of economists and studies that show the harmful of effects of the min wage increase.

No there are no GOOD studies that show that. Which was the point of recent debunkings by eminent economists including numerous Nobel Laureates. For another example Australia, with a high minimum wage and low unemployment.

Australia, where the cost of living is so much higher that it wipes out much of the advantage of that higher minimum wage?

Australia, whose training wage is well below our minimum wage in purchasing power?
 
No there are no GOOD studies that show that. Which was the point of recent debunkings by eminent economists including numerous Nobel Laureates. For another example Australia, with a high minimum wage and low unemployment.

Australia, where the cost of living is so much higher that it wipes out much of the advantage of that higher minimum wage?
How much?

I note that even you don't dare claim that it wipes out ALL of the advantage. :rolleyes:

Australia, whose training wage is well below our minimum wage in purchasing power?
We don't have a 'training wage'; We have junior rates - the only factor determining how low the rate is is age.

Unless we have an infinite pool of teenagers, this provides a mechanism for teens to get jobs, despite being pretty much useless; but it has little effect on the adult workforce, as there are not enough teenagers to displace them from the minimum wage workforce.

There are lots of teenagers working at fast food outlets and supermarkets here; but they are by no means the entire workforce in such places, and we know that the adults are getting a decent minimum wage.

Waitstaff in restaurants are rarely teenagers - presumably because a bad attitude is bad for business - and as a result, we can dine out secure in the knowledge that the waitress is paid properly, and is not dependent on tips.

You should come over here for a vacation sometime. It's a terrific place to live (and even to work). And our economy is very different from the way you assume it to be.
 
No there are no GOOD studies that show that. Which was the point of recent debunkings by eminent economists including numerous Nobel Laureates. For another example Australia, with a high minimum wage and low unemployment.

Australia, where the cost of living is so much higher that it wipes out much of the advantage of that higher minimum wage?

Australia, whose training wage is well below our minimum wage in purchasing power?

What Bilby wrote...

And no, the cost of living in Australia is not so bad as you intimate. In the US, some cities, San Francisco for example, cost of living is very high. You won't make it there at $7.25 an hour.

Basically Australia was doing well at ~ $16.00 an hour which conservative theory would claim should suffer high unemployment. Australia does not. hen all of this became a big argument two years ago, I had noted the highest minimum wage in America was in Vermont. Which also enjoyed the lowest rate of unemployment save North Dakota.

Again as I pointed out several hundred expert economists including 7 Nobel laureates have shown the conservative case against MW is based on old and faulty studies. The claim that high MW will destroy jobs in a massive fashion is empirically, demonstrably false.
 
Australia, where the cost of living is so much higher that it wipes out much of the advantage of that higher minimum wage?
How much?

I note that even you don't dare claim that it wipes out ALL of the advantage. :rolleyes:

Australia, whose training wage is well below our minimum wage in purchasing power?
We don't have a 'training wage'; We have junior rates - the only factor determining how low the rate is is age.

Unless we have an infinite pool of teenagers, this provides a mechanism for teens to get jobs, despite being pretty much useless; but it has little effect on the adult workforce, as there are not enough teenagers to displace them from the minimum wage workforce.

There are lots of teenagers working at fast food outlets and supermarkets here; but they are by no means the entire workforce in such places, and we know that the adults are getting a decent minimum wage.

Waitstaff in restaurants are rarely teenagers - presumably because a bad attitude is bad for business - and as a result, we can dine out secure in the knowledge that the waitress is paid properly, and is not dependent on tips.

You should come over here for a vacation sometime. It's a terrific place to live (and even to work). And our economy is very different from the way you assume it to be.

And our minimum wage is mostly for teens here, also.

As for waitstaff--in our early years my wife spent about a year as a waitress. Counting tips she was making at least 3x minimum wage.
 
How much?

I note that even you don't dare claim that it wipes out ALL of the advantage. :rolleyes:

Australia, whose training wage is well below our minimum wage in purchasing power?
We don't have a 'training wage'; We have junior rates - the only factor determining how low the rate is is age.

Unless we have an infinite pool of teenagers, this provides a mechanism for teens to get jobs, despite being pretty much useless; but it has little effect on the adult workforce, as there are not enough teenagers to displace them from the minimum wage workforce.

There are lots of teenagers working at fast food outlets and supermarkets here; but they are by no means the entire workforce in such places, and we know that the adults are getting a decent minimum wage.

Waitstaff in restaurants are rarely teenagers - presumably because a bad attitude is bad for business - and as a result, we can dine out secure in the knowledge that the waitress is paid properly, and is not dependent on tips.

You should come over here for a vacation sometime. It's a terrific place to live (and even to work). And our economy is very different from the way you assume it to be.

And our minimum wage is mostly for teens here, also.

As for waitstaff--in our early years my wife spent about a year as a waitress. Counting tips she was making at least 3x minimum wage.

Na und?
 
They used the Physician fix because it always finally gets approved. A cynic would say that they go through the entire drama of the Physician fix to generate campaign funds from doctors.

There is certainly a lot of waste in our health care system, we spend more than any other modern economy on health care, twice as much as the average and three times more than the lowest. All with generally average outcomes. This is a terribly inefficient system.

And it is not hard to understand why our healthcare system is so inefficient. If you rank the modern economies by the percentage of the health care system that is in the hands of for profit entities it corresponds almost exactly to the order of the list of the most expensive health care countries.

The healthcare system is one of the parts of the economy that doesn't lend itself to the for profit model. It is best and most efficiently handled by professionalism.

It is quite doable. that we could save quite a bit in our annual costs for health care if we went to single payer, Medicare for all. But one trillion dollars a year is overstating the possible savings. We spend about three trillion dollars a year on health care. Saving one trillion dollars a year would require the complete squeezing out of the for profit businesses involved in the healthcare sector, an impossible goal realistically.

I'm saying the oppposite about the physician fix. Every year they promise to cut the payments to doctors but never do. The promise of cutting payments to doctors was included in the costs even though congress never cuts them.

I think we could easily find that we actually use too much health care in the US and finding ways to ration it will save us money and better care, but we pay our health care officials much more than other countries, so to get costs down we are going to have to pay doctors and nurses a lot less than we actually do. Good luck with that.

We don't use too much health care in the US. The Japanese visit doctors almost three times as often as Americans and have a per capita cost of health care less than half of the US.

The Physician fix or Doc Fix applies to Medicare, not ObamaCare. Congress boosted the payments to doctors over what is allowed by the legislation establishing Medicare. But they would only put a one year term on the legislation boosting the payments. In other words, if they didn't pass the legislation the payments would drop. Minor point.

I am assuming that you meant that when the Democrats were trying to cost justify ObamaCare that they assumed that Congress wouldn't pass the Doc Fix legislation. It is the only way that what you said makes any sense. I don't know that it is true, I have to rely on you. But if this is the case, it certainly isn't the most blatant fabrication that was ever used for justifying legislation.

And I have to point out that none of the predictions that conservatives made, and still make, about the economic problems that ObamaCare would cause are anywhere close to reality. It hasn't caused premiums to balloon, it hasn't been a job killer, it hasn't added to the deficit, it hasn't resulted in death panels deciding who would get health care. Compared to you and yours abysmal failure to predict outcomes the Doc Fix failed prediction seems rather tame.

The reason that health care in the US is so expensive is because of the large amount of for profit businesses in the health care system. You only have to go back to 1970 to see a time when the per capita health care cost in the US was about average for major economies. Since then our costs have exploded to more than twice the average. Why?

In 1970 the health care system was in the hands of charities and government. People's access to health care was through the large community rate based, non-profit insurance companies, Blue Cross-Blue Shield. Blue Cross-Blue Shield was large enough that they could control the rates paid to doctors and hospitals, none of whom would have hardly any patients if they refused to accept Blue Cross-Blue Shield.

Hospitals were owned by charities or government, usually local government.

Then things started to change. Hospitals were increasingly run by for profit companies who quickly learned how to game the system. Before regulations stopped it, hospitals were over built the charities and local governments who owed them went bankrupt when they couldn't fill the beds. They finally sold them to private, for profit companies for pennies on the dollar.

Then in the 1990's the Republican majority in Congress and the Blue Dog Democrat Bill Clinton turned most of the Blue Cross-Blue Shield companies into for profit companies at a time when the for profit insurance companies had only a 5% share of the market for at risk health care insurance. At this point medical costs started to balloon, no longer was one insurer large enough to able to dictate rates. For profit insurance companies can't be expected to try to control medical care costs, as long as they can raise premiums, profits rise along with the medical costs.

Yes, we pay doctors more, but we have fewer doctors than other countries, 2.4 doctors per thousand people in the US compared to 3.1 doctors per thousand in the other countries. A 23% difference.

Tell me, does your superior economics to mine, that is confused by all of the factors that go into the economy, that has no reliable way to measure the economy, does it say that it is better and more efficient to use the private enterprise system to deliver health care?

That it is probably one or more of those unknown factors in the economy that has more than doubled medical costs since the private sector has taken over more than 50% of the business, that we don't know for sure that the costs have doubled because you have no way to measure the total costs? That you have no way to measure the size of the economy exactly?
 
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