White privilege poll.

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think you can understand white privilege without incorporating the study of socioeconomic class. Absent class issues, the "white race" and "black race" would never have been invented to begin with. It is and always was a cynical idea, meant to divide the working poor against each one another and stave off rebellion against the aristocracy. The true power brokers have enough education to know that biology doesn't really work the way folk taxonomies of race would have you believe (and it shows, when you look at how they treat impoverished whites) but when you have a considerable economic stake in the perpetuation of a bad idea, it's not hard to convince yourself of it.

Yeah, without a cup of Marx the white privilige conversation is stupid IMHO.

The real discussion isn't whether white privilige exists or not, but what, if anything we should do about it. In this thread these two things are conflated.

People, in this thread, who deny white privilige I just don't think understand what the words mean. I've had many chats with conservatives on forums who have seriously claimed that rich people have equal opportunities to poor people. Nobody thinks that. At least nobody who understands what is meant by a life opportunity.

Personally I don't think white privilige is a race thing. I think it's a class thing. I think we're best off ignoring race and instead focusing on how to flatten the income distribution. I'm not saying racism isn't a problem. But if we flatten the income distribution I think that would be the best method with which to mitigate the racial conflicts.

I agree with this generally, but racism (which is clearly alive and well in America- witness trump and his followers) has some elements that make class systems more rigid than just income. Opportunity needs to accompany income distribution. If you are hassled by the cops frequently, if you get a criminal record, if you don't have basic education, the opportunities will never be equal.

The criminal justice system is broken or maybe working exactly as intended. Either way, it is the main source of opportunity loss in our society.

Every billionaire is a policy failure

The problem with using race as a category for this is that whatever social machine you put in place to protect the rights of blacks will inevitably end up perpetuating anti-black racism in order to keep that machine alive. Any organisation creates people with power. People like having power. There's many examples of this among the many workers movements in the world. Both in places like the USSR as well as Sweden. The state of the feminist movements/SJWs is another good example. There's a lot of feminist organisations still fighting fights that were won in the 70'ies, and are just cruising along, feeding itself, as if nothing has changed, and in the process spreading and perpetuating a false beliefs. These groups are numerous and they are hardly helping women. I suspect, rather the opposite.

All we can do is push towards equality under the law. When that is reached we need to drop the race category, or we've fucked ourselves, if the goal is to ever solve racism. If we're ever going to defeat racism we are going to have to just ignore it. It's only by ignoring it we can make it a non-issue. Which is the goal.

Right now black skin is associated with poverty. Poor people have less opportunities in life because they're less likely to be a good investement. So black people will have less opportunities. The point of the segregation laws was to perpetuate this. 50 years is not that long time for the effects to be felt. Markets are dynamic, and over time income differences will be better distributed racially. Just like what happened with women in the work place. And at some point race will stop being a thing. So all we need to do is put our focus on how to maximise market dynamism. Which a totally free market isn't very good at. Lefty markets tend to be better. But they aren't perfect either.

So basically, we just need to wait. This is a problem that will solve itself over time. I'm not denying that might not be frustrating for black people today.

 

[southernhybrid]

I've already given multiple examples. You're the one in denial.

How on earth could race, in the USA, disappear as a factor, Loren? How could that happen? There'd have to be no racism, and no effects of racism, in the USA.

For example, the supposed inferior medical treatment of blacks. Nope, it's the facilities, not race. You're not going to get as good care at an underfunded and overworked facility, the supposed racism is because those facilities are more likely to be in the inner cities (a lot of uninsured patients and a lot who have medicaid.)

Actually, there have been many studies regarding the difference between how black patients are treated compared to white patients. This is especially true when it comes to pain management. I'm not claiming that all doctors are prejudice regarding how they assess and treat their black patients, but this is a well known fact hat has been written up in medical papers.

https://news.virginia.edu/content/study-links-disparities-pain-management-racial-bias

Research has documented that black Americans are systematically undertreated for pain relative to white Americans, likely due to both the over-prescription and over-use of pain medications among white patients and the under-prescription of pain medications for black patients. Indeed, research has shown that black patients are undertreated for pain not only relative to white patients, but relative to World Health Organization guidelines.

New research from the University of Virginia suggests that disparities in pain management may be attributable in part to bias. In a study of medical students and residents, researchers find that a substantial number of white medical students and residents hold false beliefs about biological differences between black and white people (e.g., black people’s skin is thicker; black people’s blood coagulates more quickly) that could affect how they assess and treat the pain experienced by black patients.

The findings are detailed online in the April 4 edition of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

“Many previous studies have shown that black Americans are undertreated for pain compared to white Americans, because physicians might assume black patients might abuse the medications or because they might not recognize the pain of their black patients in the first place.” said Kelly Hoffman, a UVA psychology Ph.D. candidate who led the study. “Our findings show that beliefs about black-white differences in biology may contribute to this disparity.”

Just look it up. There are news reports and medical studies that support this. And, I also continue to read a medical news source designed for health care professionals, on a weekly basis. Some articles have comment sections. It's disgusting how many doctors make bigoted remarks concerning black people.

And, in states like Georgia, there are a high rate of black residents who live in suburban and rural areas, so your remark about hospitals isn't realistic. Plus, there are some public hospitals that give the best care in certain areas. For example, Grady in Atlanta, while often suffering from a shortage of funds, is still recognized as one of the best trauma centers in the south. The hospitals in my small city has gone down hill since it became profit oriented. Imo, the privately owned corporate hospitals are often the worst of all.

 

[ruby sparks]

There are news reports and medical studies that support this. And, I also continue to read a medical news source designed for health care professionals, on a weekly basis. Some articles have comment sections. It's disgusting how many doctors make bigoted remarks concerning black people.

And, in states like Georgia, there are a high rate of black residents who live in suburban and rural areas, so your remark about hospitals isn't realistic. Plus, there are some public hospitals that give the best care in certain areas. For example, Grady in Atlanta, while often suffering from a shortage of funds, is still recognized as one of the best trauma centers in the south. The hospitals in my small city has gone down hill since it became profit oriented. Imo, the privately owned corporate hospitals are often the worst of all.

There are studies which control for cost factors. There are studies which show disparate treatment in the same geographical areas and even the same hospitals. There are studies that show implicit bias on the part of physicians. There is all sorts of evidence. At least some of it has been presented previously on this forum.

What I would say again is that of all the areas where there are ongoing issues with anti-black bias, healthcare seems to be one where it's only one of a number of other factors. Personally I would say financial considerations may be the largest in this case.

It is even possible that in the USA today, financial or socioeconomic factors have way overtaken ongoing racism. I have no problem with saying that, albeit I do not know for sure. Obviously, past unfairnesses will have partly created the current socioeconomic inequalities.

 

[laughing dog]

For example, the supposed inferior medical treatment of blacks. Nope, it's the facilities, not race. You're not going to get as good care at an underfunded and overworked facility, the supposed racism is because those facilities are more likely to be in the inner cities (a lot of uninsured patients and a lot who have medicaid.)

This is actually a good example for the other thread, about systemic racism.

It's also a classic example (which LP demonstrates many times on a daily basis here) of the the psychological effects of compartmentalization. If you look at every single incident in complete isolation, you never get racism, guns, or whatever it is one is trying to pretend doesn't exist as a factor! Not sure how one would be able to sleep at night, but it seems to work for lots of bootlicker types.

The point is you can't fix this by focusing on better medical treatment for blacks as that's not the problem in the first place.

You are dead wrong. There are plenty of studies that show that black patients are not treated the same as white ones for the same complaints.

Better medical treatment for ______ (you fill in the blank) is the decent and humane response. Any so-called civilized society should strive for better medical treatment for all, but especially when there is unequal access or resources.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem with using race as a category for this is that whatever social machine you put in place to protect the rights of blacks will inevitably end up perpetuating anti-black racism in order to keep that machine alive. Any organisation creates people with power. People like having power. There's many examples of this among the many workers movements in the world. Both in places like the USSR as well as Sweden. The state of the feminist movements/SJWs is another good example. There's a lot of feminist organisations still fighting fights that were won in the 70'ies, and are just cruising along, feeding itself, as if nothing has changed, and in the process spreading and perpetuating a false beliefs. These groups are numerous and they are hardly helping women. I suspect, rather the opposite.

Yup, all movements tend to suffer from this. As the original problem gets solved they keep ratcheting up far past equality, it only stops when the backlash is enough to deny them support.

All we can do is push towards equality under the law. When that is reached we need to drop the race category, or we've fucked ourselves, if the goal is to ever solve racism. If we're ever going to defeat racism we are going to have to just ignore it. It's only by ignoring it we can make it a non-issue. Which is the goal.

Actually, we should stop somewhat before equality because there is inertia.

Right now black skin is associated with poverty. Poor people have less opportunities in life because they're less likely to be a good investement. So black people will have less opportunities. The point of the segregation laws was to perpetuate this. 50 years is not that long time for the effects to be felt. Markets are dynamic, and over time income differences will be better distributed racially. Just like what happened with women in the work place. And at some point race will stop being a thing. So all we need to do is put our focus on how to maximise market dynamism. Which a totally free market isn't very good at. Lefty markets tend to be better. But they aren't perfect either.

So basically, we just need to wait. This is a problem that will solve itself over time. I'm not denying that might not be frustrating for black people today.

I think our initial efforts were a necessary evil--yes, some innocents suffered but overall that was necessary to break the back of discrimination. We are long past the point where such measures do more harm than good, though.

I disagree on the issue solving itself, though. We have had so many people screaming that the problem is discrimination that a lot of people have internalized that and think they can't fix their own situation. Life has handed most of us shit, the difference is how we deal with it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is you can't fix this by focusing on better medical treatment for blacks as that's not the problem in the first place.

You are dead wrong. There are plenty of studies that show that black patients are not treated the same as white ones for the same complaints.

Better medical treatment for ______ (you fill in the blank) is the decent and humane response. Any so-called civilized society should strive for better medical treatment for all, but especially when there is unequal access or resources.

Showing different outcomes without controlling for facilities is the problem!

 

[laughing dog]

The point is you can't fix this by focusing on better medical treatment for blacks as that's not the problem in the first place.

You are dead wrong. There are plenty of studies that show that black patients are not treated the same as white ones for the same complaints.

Better medical treatment for ______ (you fill in the blank) is the decent and humane response. Any so-called civilized society should strive for better medical treatment for all, but especially when there is unequal access or resources.

Showing different outcomes without controlling for facilities is the problem!

You are simply babbling a kneejerk apologia. I guess you have not read any of the studies. And, one can always come up with some "factor" that was not controlled for.

The data and reality are obvious to anyone who will open their eyes and read with disinterested comprehension.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Yup, all movements tend to suffer from this. As the original problem gets solved they keep ratcheting up far past equality, it only stops when the backlash is enough to deny them support.

ALL movements suffer from this?

If that's the case, it should be easy for you to provide some examples (of what you think) this happening.

 

[Emily Lake]

But was that racism, or the computer regurgitating the pattern it saw based on the overloaded hospitals? Neural network approaches are well known for reproducing flaws in the input data.

It's a known treatment bias. Hospital performance, medicaid prevalence, and similar factors were controlled for.

 

[ruby sparks]

But was that racism, or the computer regurgitating the pattern it saw based on the overloaded hospitals? Neural network approaches are well known for reproducing flaws in the input data.

It's a known treatment bias. Hospital performance, medicaid prevalence, and similar factors were controlled for.

He knows. He's just been having a bit of fun the whole time. If you think about it, it's the only rational explanation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yup, all movements tend to suffer from this. As the original problem gets solved they keep ratcheting up far past equality, it only stops when the backlash is enough to deny them support.

ALL movements suffer from this?

If that's the case, it should be easy for you to provide some examples (of what you think) this happening.

Not all have reached that point.

It's just a movement that accomplishes it's goal almost never simply quits.

 

[DBT]

Self interest, taking care of oneself and one's own, whatever we identify with, is practically universal. Of course, there are exceptions.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I disagree on the issue solving itself, though. We have had so many people screaming that the problem is discrimination that a lot of people have internalized that and think they can't fix their own situation. Life has handed most of us shit, the difference is how we deal with it.

In Sweden we have a whole bunch of ethnic groups who are so blended into the culture that we think of them as Swedish. Which, now, they are. It takes research to learn that these were once separate ethnic groups. That's what happens when cultures blend. They eventually evaporate as categories. It's not just Sweden. This is true all over the planet. It takes considerable effort to prevent this from happening.

Edit: ...and it also works for race. We tend to think of Romans as all white because of the statues. But plenty of famous Romans were black. It goes mostly unmentioned in historical documents because they didn't seem to care about race. S:t Augustine was as black as they come. If it wasn't for the early icons of him (black face) and the fact that he was born in Numidia we'd never have known he was black. It's not mentioned anywhere. We've found plenty of blacks in tombs in a variety of social classes. It doesn't seem to have been a thing in Rome. That is significant. What they cared about in ancient Rome was who was the client of who

 

[ruby sparks]

Yup, all movements tend to suffer from this. As the original problem gets solved they keep ratcheting up far past equality, it only stops when the backlash is enough to deny them support.

ALL movements suffer from this?

If that's the case, it should be easy for you to provide some examples (of what you think) this happening.

I think Loren is referring to African Americans. The problems with anti-African American racism have been solved. It doesn't even show up in studies, because it has disappeared as a factor. In fact, the reverse racism now favours them unfairly.