Why are so-called "progressives" and "liberals" so deferential to religious nonsense by Indians?

[Valjean]

The safest practical option is to conscientiously improve, repair, and maintain existing pipelines rather than add more of them to a system already prone to failure and neglect.

The safest practical option would be to phase out most petroleum dependent technology. Alternatives exist, they just threaten the existing industry.

 

[Derec]

The safest practical option would be to phase out most petroleum dependent technology. Alternatives exist, they just threaten the existing industry.

Phasing out petroleum will take decades. In the meantime we need oil and having substantial supply of domestic oil is good for the economy, government revenues as well as for national security (less dependence on Middle East oil).

 

[dismal]

The safest practical option is to conscientiously improve, repair, and maintain existing pipelines rather than add more of them to a system already prone to failure and neglect.

The safest practical option would be to phase out most petroleum dependent technology. Alternatives exist, they just threaten the existing industry.

If they actually did threaten the existing technology there would be no need to legislate anything. Just get out of the way.

 

[Derec]

If you want to be fair, give them all you have stolen and fuck off home.

And should every other society have to do the same or does that only apply to US? Should Turks have to go back to central Asia for example? After all, they "stole" Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace.

'Have they buggery!' is our traditional way of expressing total contempt for drivel. We also know your traditional historical names for 'black' people. Jews and almost everyone else, and on the whole regard anyone who uses them with similar contempt. If I ever lose any arguments with racists, I shall know, thank you.

What the hell are you talking about? You make zero sense, just jumping from thing to thing. Like stream of consciousness on LSD.

 

[Potoooooooo]

 

[Derec]

These "sacred land" claims are BS anyway. For one, the pipeline company already rerouted the pipeline many times in response to claims by tribes. It is pretty clear that these claims and requests for reroutes were not made in good faith. And also, actual archaeologists have found nothing in areas that the Indians claim are burial grounds.

In a memo sent Thursday from state archaeologist Paul Picha, he writes that seven archaeologists from the State Historical Society surveyed the construction area west of State Highway 1806 that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe says contains sacred sites.
The team found no human bone or other evidence of human burials or cultural materials in the 1.36-mile corridor, Picha writes in a memo published Monday by Say Anything blogger Rob Port.

North Dakota archaeologist: No burial sites destroyed by Dakota Access

And lastly, even if there were some human remains there, should that make any development automatically off limits? With no regard how old or significant the area is archaeologically? Even if there were significant archaeological finds they could be excavated and then the construction could proceed, like it is done everywhere else in the world. Indians demand special rights for their superstitions and restrictive rules that don't exist anywhere else.


The Indians and their anti-development allies always invent claims of "sacred" or "holy" ground in order to prevent development, be it pipelines, mines or telescopes like at Mt. Graham, AZ or Mauna Kea, HI.

And no matter where you stand on fracking itself, it would set a dangerous precedent if Indians were allowed a veto power over any large scale development anywhere close to their lands. I really hope Obama and Hillary do not cave to the ridiculous and fact-free claims by these Indians.

P.S.: How the hell do you burn rock? No wonder these Indians and hippies have an irrational fear of oil - they do not know their chemistry!

 

[Arctish]

P.S.: How the hell do you burn rock?

The folks in Centralia, Pa. did it by incinerating trash on top of an old open pit coal mine.

 

[bleubird]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/18/u...democracy-now-over-pipeline-protest.html?_r=0
Fascist Sheriff shut down.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

These "sacred land" claims are BS anyway. For one, the pipeline company already rerouted the pipeline many times in response to claims by tribes. It is pretty clear that these claims and requests for reroutes were not made in good faith. And also, actual archaeologists have found nothing in areas that the Indians claim are burial grounds.

In a memo sent Thursday from state archaeologist Paul Picha, he writes that seven archaeologists from the State Historical Society surveyed the construction area west of State Highway 1806 that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe says contains sacred sites.
The team found no human bone or other evidence of human burials or cultural materials in the 1.36-mile corridor, Picha writes in a memo published Monday by Say Anything blogger Rob Port.

North Dakota archaeologist: No burial sites destroyed by Dakota Access

And lastly, even if there were some human remains there, should that make any development automatically off limits? With no regard how old or significant the area is archaeologically? Even if there were significant archaeological finds they could be excavated and then the construction could proceed, like it is done everywhere else in the world. Indians demand special rights for their superstitions and restrictive rules that don't exist anywhere else.


The Indians and their anti-development allies always invent claims of "sacred" or "holy" ground in order to prevent development, be it pipelines, mines or telescopes like at Mt. Graham, AZ or Mauna Kea, HI.

And no matter where you stand on fracking itself, it would set a dangerous precedent if Indians were allowed a veto power over any large scale development anywhere close to their lands. I really hope Obama and Hillary do not cave to the ridiculous and fact-free claims by these Indians.

P.S.: How the hell do you burn rock? No wonder these Indians and hippies have an irrational fear of oil - they do not know their chemistry!

Not arguing against the claim that it's "not a burial sute" here, but it's basic human decency to respect others' burial sites. You don't need any superstition to understand that concept, only empathy. Doesn't surprise me that that concept goes over your head. You're basically saying their concerns don't matter and we should just do whatever the fuck we want.

 

[Derec]

P.S.: How the hell do you burn rock?

The folks in Centralia, Pa. did it by incinerating trash on top of an old open pit coal mine.

It is still not the rock that's burning.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/18/u...democracy-now-over-pipeline-protest.html?_r=0
Fascist Sheriff shut down.

What's "fascist" about indicting somebody for rioting? Unfortunately the spineless judge threw the indictment out.

Amy Goodman pretends to be a journalist, but she is no more a journalist than Sean Hannity. Or Alex Jones. And if those two went to a rally and participated in illegal activity while there, it would not be "fascist" to go after them criminally. For that matter, it is not even "fascist" to file criminal changes against legit journalists if they commit illegal acts during their reporting. A press card should not be confused with this.

 

[Derec]

Not arguing against the claim that it's "not a burial sute" here, but it's basic human decency to respect others' burial sites.

It really depends. On the one hand, yes, if the burial sites are recent enough that there is a real connection to present day people, sure, the burial sites should be respected. But there have been people in North America for more than 10,000 years. That's hundreds of million to few billion buried bodies (assuming carrying capacity of NA as several million and 400 generations or so). Should all areas where somebody has been buried in the distant past be off limits in perpetuity?
Note that the DAPL company showed quite a deal of sensitivity to cultural claims. It is just that the Indians were not acting in good faith and their aim was always to stop the pipeline even if it means inventing bogus claims of cultural significance - which is the usual modus operandi of Indian tribes when it comes to blocking development.

You don't need any superstition to understand that concept, only empathy. Doesn't surprise me that that concept goes over your head. You're basically saying their concerns don't matter and we should just do whatever the fuck we want.

It's not that cultural concerns do not matter, it is that
- they should be subject to scrutiny, just like all other claims. In this case, they turned out to be bogus.
- they should not be absolute. Even if there were some archaeological remains of past Indians at the site, it can be excavated and construction can proceed, or if feasible/necessary the pipeline could be rerouted through a less sensitive/significant area. It's not like things have not been built where past human activity happened. I mean if past human activity meant no present activity could take place, we would have run out of room to build stuff a long time ago!

Again, I do not understand why Indians should be given this special veto right over development that has not been granted to anybody, ever.


In the meantime, the "peaceful" anti-DAPL activists are engaging in arson
Dakota Access construction equipment set ablaze in Iowa: sheriff

And with oil prices over $50/bbl I really hope Hillary will see some sense and rebuff the left wing of the Democratic Party (aka Sandernistas) and remove the hold Obama placed on the pipeline construction.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

In the meantime, the "peaceful" anti-DAPL activists are engaging in arson
Dakota Access construction equipment set ablaze in Iowa: sheriff

Derec,
While it could very well be activists, it might also be vandals: they have made no arrests. If you have knowledge of who exactly set these fires please contact the FBI who is investigating these fires.

 

[Derec]

Derec,
While it could very well be activists, it might also be vandals: they have made no arrests. If you have knowledge of who exactly set these fires please contact the FBI who is investigating these fires.

First of all, the activists are the ones with the motive. Second, "vandal" is an ethnic slur.
 Vandals

What I want to know is who is funding these thousands of "protestors", many of whom travelled 100s if not 1000s of miles to get there (ironically, mostly by cars or airplanes). The protests have been going for many weeks now. Do these people have jobs? Or are they paid stooges of Russia or Saudi Arabia, both of whom would benefit greatly if the shale revolution were to be derailed. Hmm, perhaps the best moniker for these "protesters" would be "Shale counterrevolutionaries".

I know already that Thom Hartmann, with whose video this thread started and who is reporting in opposition to DAPL all the time, is a Russian stooge.

By the way, the counterrevolutionaries claim to be environmentalists, but they think nothing of burning tires.
Sheriff’s Office Removes Protesters From Dakota Access Pipeline Site
How many toxins are released into the air by doing that?

"Air emissions from open tire fires have been shown to be more toxic (e.g., mutagenic) than those of a combustor, regardless of the fuel. Open tire fire emissions include "criteria" pollutants, such as particulates, carbon monoxide (CO), sulfur oxides (SO2), oxides of nitrogen (NOx), and volatile organic compounds (VOCs). They also include "non-criteria" hazardous air pollutants (HAPs), such as polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), dioxins, furans, hydrogen chloride, benzene, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs); and metals such as arsenic, cadmium, nickel, zinc, mercury, chromium, and vanadium. Both criteria and HAP emissions from an open tire fire can represent significant acute (short-term) and chronic (long-term) health hazards to firefighters and nearby residents. Depending on the length and degree of exposure, these health effects could include irritation of the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes, respiratory effects, central nervous system depression, and cancer. Firefighters and others working near a large tire fire should be equipped with respirators and dermal protection. Unprotected exposure to the visible smoke plume should be avoided.

Health impacts of open burning of used (scrap) tires and potential solutions (science memo)
They are afraid of imaginary black snakes but actually create cloud of billowing, toxic black smoke. Some environmentalists!
Unfortunately, the federal government is refusing to evict the main camp from federal property further south.

 

[Derec]

So these anti-oil nutburgers are charging at police with horses, starting fires, throwing Molotov cocktails off a bridge and one woman even shot at police with a .38 and they are still calling themselves "peaceful protesters". Yeah, right! Arrest the lot and sue them for the entire cost of the police/national guard operation.

 

[bleubird]

They went too far,and only hurt the cause.

 

[DrZoidberg]

See for example Thom Hartmann talk about Lakota opposition to the North Dakota pipeline. The reason they are against it? Some ridiculous doomsday "prophecy" of a "black snake" that they identify with the pipeline.

The kicker? Thom is talking about this silly "prophecy" with reverence and a straight face that he would not have if he was talking about Harold Camping for example. Why the double standard?

Also, Indians, including Lakota, use motor vehicles. It's not like they are not dependent on the oil economy. Do they believe gasoline/diesel magically (by the power of Manitou perhaps?) appear in the pump?

Is it a double standard? 80% of Americans have one or more invisible friends they're 100% sure exists and which they can talk to. A prophecy of a black snake sounds way more down to Earth than the rest of the the lunatics.

 

[JonA]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/29/us/dakota-pipeline-standing-rock-sioux/

Fool Bear has had it with the protesters. He says that more than two years ago, when members of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe could have attended hearings to make their concerns known, they didn't care. Now, suddenly, the crowds are out of control, and he fears it's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt.​

The sacred mumbo jumbo is really just an excuse used by outsiders to push their own agenda.

 

[Derec]

DAPL operators have done everything right. Standing Rock tribe is clearly in the wrong here.

Then there is the court record showing that Dakota Access LLC has already rerouted the pipeline repeatedly — 140 times — in response to concerns from archaeologists and tribes about historic relics and cultural sites.
During that two-year period, however, Standing Rock Sioux officials repeatedly ignored or refused efforts to consult with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
“The Corps has documented dozens of attempts to engage Standing Rock in consultations to identify historical resources at Lake Oahe and other PCN [pro-construction notice] crossings,” said U.S. District Court Judge James Boasberg in his Sept. 9 order rejecting the tribe’s motion for an injunction.
“Suffice it to say that the Tribe largely refused to engage in consultations. It chose instead to hold out for more — namely, the chance to conduct its own cultural surveys over the entire length of the pipeline,” said the judge.

Obama idea to reroute Dakota Access pipeline skewered by both sides

Obama playing Solomon by trying to cut the baby is half is not really working.

 

[Derec]

Is it a double standard? 80% of Americans have one or more invisible friends they're 100% sure exists and which they can talk to.

It's a double standard when Christian mumbo jumbo is rightly rejected but Indian mumbo jumbo is given serious consideration.

A prophecy of a black snake sounds way more down to Earth than the rest of the the lunatics.

Why? If anything it is more ridiculous. Christianity had almost 2000 years of philosophical demythologizing, really ever since St. Augustine. The god of the theologian has little to do with a folksy deity that walks around the garden in the cool of the evening or shows Moses his back side. Indian religions did not experience this process of demythologizing (yet).

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why? If anything it is more ridiculous. Christianity had almost 2000 years of philosophical demythologizing, really ever since St. Augustine. The god of the theologian has little to do with a folksy deity that walks around the garden in the cool of the evening or shows Moses his back side. Indian religions did not experience this process of demythologizing (yet).

I think the two religions are too different for this to make much sense. I somehow doubt Native American religious myths serve the same purpose than Christian myths.

I haven't studied Native American religion to any extent. But I have studied paganism and animism elsewhere on the globe. Christianity always comes across as shallow and childish by comparison. I suspect it'll be the same here