Why do so many Jews win the Nobel Prize (22%)

[untermensche]

There are only so many likely places Nobel Prize winners in science will come from.

Usually they are full time scientists working at a university conducting research of some kind.

And usually in a modern wealthy nation.

What percentage of these people have a Jewish ancestry?

0.2% of the World Population wins 22% of Nobel Prizes
2% of the US population wins 37% of the US Nobel Prizes.

Way out of proportion even accounting for the US level of advanced education.

You're not going to get many Nobel Prizes in science from people not highly trained and working in science.

This is the pool of potential Nobel prize winners.

Not the entire world or US population.

What percentage of this pool have some Jewish ancestry?

 

[Clivedurdle]

Shanghai Chinese have come top in Pisa scores. But Chinese in Britain also do incredibly well.

Some groups are just excellent at training brains - a huge amount is family - not just nuclear family - interactions, eating together, celebrating together, talking together, arguing together, and local interactions.

For example, see Disobedience by Naomi Alderman and Rebecca Goldstein 36 Arguments for the existence of God

 

[untermensche]

Shanghai Chinese have come top in Pisa scores. But Chinese in Britain also do incredibly well.

Some groups are just excellent at training brains - a huge amount is family - not just nuclear family - interactions, eating together, celebrating together, talking together, arguing together, and local interactions.

For example, see Disobedience by Naomi Alderman and Rebecca Goldstein 36 Arguments for the existence of God

You are talking about cultural factors.

Our expectations and motivations are driven by cultural factors. Especially factors in early life.

If your culture places great motivation in you to excel at science, that is not a genetic predisposition.

 

[skepticalbip]

Why do so many Jews win the Nobel Prize (22%)

Because so many Jews have contributed more prize worthy contributions than other groups.

Why are there so many black jazz musicians? Because there are so many blacks that are better jazz musicians than other groups.

 

[credoconsolans]

Nah. Even though there was significant intermarriage, there is a strong Middle Eastern component to the modern Jewish (Ashkenazim) gene pool.

From wiki:

Before 2006, geneticists had largely attributed the ethnogenesis of most of the world's Jewish populations, including Ashkenazi Jews, to Israelite Jewish male migrants from the Middle East and "the women from each local population whom they took as wives and converted to Judaism." Thus, in 2002, in line with this model of origin, David Goldstein, now of Duke University, reported that unlike male Ashkenazi lineages, the female lineages in Ashkenazi Jewish communities "did not seem to be Middle Eastern", and that each community had its own genetic pattern and even that "in some cases the mitochondrial DNA was closely related to that of the host community." In his view this suggested "that Jewish men had arrived from the Middle East, taken wives from the host population and converted them to Judaism, after which there was no further intermarriage with non-Jews."[113]

In 2006, a study by Behar et al.,[114] based on what was at that time high-resolution analysis of haplogroup K (mtDNA), suggested that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women, or "founder lineages", that were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Middle East in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE. Additionally, Behar et al. suggested that the rest of Ashkenazi mtDNA is originated from ~150 women, and that most of those were also likely of Middle Eastern origin.[114] In reference specifically to Haplogroup K, they suggested that although it is common throughout western Eurasia, "the observed global pattern of distribution renders very unlikely the possibility that the four aforementioned founder lineages entered the Ashkenazi mtDNA pool via gene flow from a European host population".

And actually, if you read the rest of the wiki article, it seems to be the case that the maternal lines are largley European, but that male lines are mostly from the Middle East. So what essentially happened to establish the European Jewish line was that males from the middle east came to Europe and intermarried with the population, converting their wives, and after that staying within the newly formed Ashkenazi ethnic group.

But as I recall, Jewishness is decided by the maternal line, not the paternal line. So it doesn't matter if the wives converted. They are not Jewish by birth, so their children are not Jewish either.

 

[untermensche]

But as I recall, Jewishness is decided by the maternal line, not the paternal line. So it doesn't matter if the wives converted. They are not Jewish by birth, so their children are not Jewish either.

Don't get technical.

A Jew is somebody who calls themselves a Jew.

There is no genetic test.

 

[Clivedurdle]

Pakistani’s only other Nobel laureate, the theoretical physicist Abdus Salam, was also the subject of a campaign of vilification in Pakistan, and is now largely forgotten in his home country because he was a member of the Ahmadiyya sect, seen as heretical by Pakistani Islamic authorities.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/malala-yousafzai-nobel-peace-prize-pakistan-reaction

I agree - culture - which also stops things happening. Religion is part of culture.

 

[credoconsolans]

But as I recall, Jewishness is decided by the maternal line, not the paternal line. So it doesn't matter if the wives converted. They are not Jewish by birth, so their children are not Jewish either.

Don't get technical.

A Jew is somebody who calls themselves a Jew.

There is no genetic test.

It's not genetic, this is the traditional method by which the Jews determine who is Jewish and who isn't. It's not my rule.

 

[J842P]

Nah. Even though there was significant intermarriage, there is a strong Middle Eastern component to the modern Jewish (Ashkenazim) gene pool.

From wiki:



And actually, if you read the rest of the wiki article, it seems to be the case that the maternal lines are largley European, but that male lines are mostly from the Middle East. So what essentially happened to establish the European Jewish line was that males from the middle east came to Europe and intermarried with the population, converting their wives, and after that staying within the newly formed Ashkenazi ethnic group.

But as I recall, Jewishness is decided by the maternal line, not the paternal line. So it doesn't matter if the wives converted. They are not Jewish by birth, so their children are not Jewish either.

What?

Judaism is a religion, not some sex-linked trait. The offspring of a Jewish father and a Jewish mother, even if the mother is a convert, is most certainly Jewish.

Anyway, it doesn't matter since those genetic studies were based on self-identified Jews. These are people whose Judaism isn't controversial, despite what the genetic analysis reveals about their history deep in the past.

 

[credoconsolans]

But as I recall, Jewishness is decided by the maternal line, not the paternal line. So it doesn't matter if the wives converted. They are not Jewish by birth, so their children are not Jewish either.

What?

Judaism is a religion, not some sex-linked trait. The offspring of a Jewish father and a Jewish mother, even if the mother is a convert, is most certainly Jewish.

Anyway, it doesn't matter since those genetic studies were based on self-identified Jews. These are people whose Judaism isn't controversial, despite what the genetic analysis reveals about their history deep in the past.

Being Jewish is both. Both religious and racial. Why else do you think being married within their own group has always been a cultural drive?

 

[HaRaAYaH]

0.2% of the World Population wins 22% of Nobel Prizes
2% of the US population wins 37% of the US Nobel Prizes.

Way out of proportion even accounting for the US level of advanced education.

You're not going to get many Nobel Prizes in science from people not highly trained and working in science.

This is the pool of potential Nobel prize winners.

Not the entire world or US population.

What percentage of this pool have some Jewish ancestry?

You have yet to explain if the US has people highly trained and working in science why Jews make up 2% of the US population win 37% of the US Nobel prizes. What is it about Jews that they pull this off? What is your explanation. I can accept the fact that Jews from the US might be more educated in the sciences but if that's the case Jews should account for 2% of the US Nobel prizes.

 

[untermensche]

You're not going to get many Nobel Prizes in science from people not highly trained and working in science.

This is the pool of potential Nobel prize winners.

Not the entire world or US population.

What percentage of this pool have some Jewish ancestry?

You have yet to explain if the US has people highly trained and working in science why Jews make up 2% of the US population win 37% of the US Nobel prizes. What is it about Jews that they pull this off? What is your explanation. I can accept the fact that Jews from the US might be more educated in the sciences but if that's the case Jews should account for 2% of the US Nobel prizes.

What is the percentage of Jews in the population of people working at a profession where they are likely to win a Nobel Prize?

The whole population is meaningless. Very few are doing things likely to win a Nobel Prize or are trying to win a Nobel Prize.

If the percentage of Jews working in a job where they are likely to win a Nobel Prize is 20% then the fact that about 20% of Nobel Prize winners are of Jewish ancestry is expected.

There are other tests you could do.

How many people with Jewish ancestry that were Nobel Prize winners, or high achievers in science, were orphaned and not raised in a Jewish culture?

How many orphaned Nobel Prize winners were not of Jewish ancestry and raised in a Jewish culture?

Simply because people of a certain ancestry excel at some mental task that is not evidence enough to decide if the most important factor is culture or genetics.

It may be genes producing the result or culture. Or both.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

You have yet to explain if the US has people highly trained and working in science why Jews make up 2% of the US population win 37% of the US Nobel prizes. What is it about Jews that they pull this off? What is your explanation. I can accept the fact that Jews from the US might be more educated in the sciences but if that's the case Jews should account for 2% of the US Nobel prizes.

What is the percentage of Jews in the population of people working at a profession where they are likely to win a Nobel Prize?

The whole population is meaningless. Very few are doing things likely to win a Nobel Prize or are trying to win a Nobel Prize.

If the percentage of Jews working in a job where they are likely to win a Nobel Prize is 20% then the fact that about 20% of Nobel Prize winners are of Jewish ancestry is expected.

There are other tests you could do.

How many people with Jewish ancestry that were Nobel Prize winners, or high achievers in science, were orphaned and not raised in a Jewish culture?

How many orphaned Nobel Prize winners were not of Jewish ancestry and raised in a Jewish culture?

Simply because people of a certain ancestry excel at some mental task that is not evidence enough to decide if the most important factor is culture or genetics.

It may be genes producing the result or culture. Or both.

I'm asking you to account for this. I think it's religious and cultural since they are so intertwined. Judaism is different than Christianity or Islam in that it is not dogmatic and questioning is not something that is frowned upon. You combine that with the idea of Tikun Olam explains why Jews are involved in professions and causes that attempt to improve life on this planet. If you read the Talmud there is a fair amount of mental fortitude in the discussions. It's a great deal of arguing to come to a conclusion and the minority opinion is preserved so the whole intellectual discussion is pretty intense.....

 

[untermensche]

What is the percentage of Jews in the population of people working at a profession where they are likely to win a Nobel Prize?

The whole population is meaningless. Very few are doing things likely to win a Nobel Prize or are trying to win a Nobel Prize.

If the percentage of Jews working in a job where they are likely to win a Nobel Prize is 20% then the fact that about 20% of Nobel Prize winners are of Jewish ancestry is expected.

There are other tests you could do.

How many people with Jewish ancestry that were Nobel Prize winners, or high achievers in science, were orphaned and not raised in a Jewish culture?

How many orphaned Nobel Prize winners were not of Jewish ancestry and raised in a Jewish culture?

Simply because people of a certain ancestry excel at some mental task that is not evidence enough to decide if the most important factor is culture or genetics.

It may be genes producing the result or culture. Or both.

I'm asking you to account for this. I think it's religious and cultural since they are so intertwined. Judaism is different than Christianity or Islam in that it is not dogmatic and questioning is not something that is frowned upon. You combine that with the idea of Tikun Olam explains why Jews are involved in professions and causes that attempt to improve life on this planet. If you read the Talmud there is a fair amount of mental fortitude in the discussions. It's a great deal of arguing to come to a conclusion and the minority opinion is preserved so the whole intellectual discussion is pretty intense.....

There is a tested and collected cultural intelligence that is passed down.

Many people even involved in a religion don't have that.