Why does Jesus grieve for Lazarus’s death?

[Politesse]

It's funny, all these atheists complaining about one of the single most humanizing moments in all the Gospels. Would you really prefer that Jesus were cold and heartless as a stone?

I did not cry when my kids went to college. I was excited for them. I don’t get to be there, but they are doing something fun and important to them.

Does this make me cold and heartless as a stone to be happy for their happiness?

No, of course not. But if you did cry, it wouldn't prove that you weren't their parents.

 

[Bronzeage]

But in John, Jesus is god. John is the source for the doctrine of the trinity. In Mark, Jesus explicitly denies being god. If the story appeared in Mark, I might understand it. But why would any god weep? Immortality and omnipotence would imply no need for such an emotion. Thus Jesus is faking it. He’s basically lying to them instead of cheering them up. Hundreds of millions if not billions had died since Adam was thrown out of Paradise 4000 years prior. Billions more if you are an old earth creationist. Does god weep for them? Were none worth weeping for? Not even the great prophets and kings of Israel? If god weeps for the dead, why did he create death? If there is eternal life in heaven, there‘s no need for a god to weep, and on the contrary, he should rejoice and be happy about it.

If you’re saying that this just shows Jesus’s humanity, I’d be OK with it, but then you are denying one of the major tenets of Christianity, i.e. his divinity. Maybe that‘s a good UU argument against the Trinity. Jesus is just another great prophet like Elijah.

Okay, I will try one more time to explain what I meant.

Jesus was NOT crying because Lazarus was dead. He was showing empathy for the pain of Martha, Mary and the others. Just like my sister showed her empathy for my pain when my son moved out.

You seem to be trying to focus this story on a single thing, Jesus crying. That was not the intended focus when it was written.

As for your statement that I am denying a major tenet of Christianity – not so. I am a Baptist. Part of our basic faith and practice states Jesus was “fully human and fully divine”. Ergo, showing grief or any other emotion is perfectly natural for the incarnate Jesus.

Ruth

If Jesus was crying, he is not a god. That's the point. Empathetic crying is not appropriate for a god either. He's confirming their grief and making them suffer. He knows he's going to raise him from the dead (something that also contradicts the very foundations of Christianity, but that's a whole 'nother problem) so he should've said to them. Relax, I'm here. I'm the doctor and I'm going to save him. Or something like that. Cheer them up.

Can God create a rock so big that even he can't lift it?

A better question is: Can a human define what a God is, or is not? How can a mortal creature place limits on what a God can do? This is especially strange when such definitions and limits are based on the information supplied by other mortal creatures, any of whom could have altered the story.

The most we you can hope for is for someone to survey all the available material and declare, "This body of information does not conform to my concept of an omnipotent being independent of time and space."

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You can't cry for someone else. When I cry it's for me. When you cry it's for you. We cry because it hurts us, blame it on mirror neurons if that's what it takes, but I think it's a bit dishonest to claim that one's weeping is happening for someone else, that Jesus was weeping for his friends loss.

So human Jesus cried because human Jesus was hurting. The weird part isn't the weeping or the human Jesus but having to invent the religious silliness that this particular demigod was fully human and fully a god to attempt to stitch all the events together. It's a lie invented to explain another lie.

I give Ruth credit in doubting the veracity of the story as written. It only makes sense allegorically if dogma insists that Jesus had to be the first raised. Jesus didn't raise Lazarus literally, but believing he did is where the problems start.

 

[Ephesians]

So the story of Lazarus is only told in John. It’s a sign of his miracles.

But Jesus tarries for two days after he hears that he’s sick. Then he says he’s going to wake him as a sign. So he knows that Lazarus has died. So he goes to Lazarus and being informed that Lazarus has been buried for four days, and by this time he stinks. And then he weeps.

Why? In John, Jesus is god. Just bring his soul to heaven. Death makes no difference after John’s Jesus is done. So why does he weep?

Because God has compassion. Duh.

 

[atrib]

So the story of Lazarus is only told in John. It’s a sign of his miracles.

But Jesus tarries for two days after he hears that he’s sick. Then he says he’s going to wake him as a sign. So he knows that Lazarus has died. So he goes to Lazarus and being informed that Lazarus has been buried for four days, and by this time he stinks. And then he weeps.

Why? In John, Jesus is god. Just bring his soul to heaven. Death makes no difference after John’s Jesus is done. So why does he weep?

Because God has compassion. Duh.

He has so much compassion that he created all his children broken, cursed to sin, toil and death, and will roast them in hell forever if we don't bow down and accept him as our lord and master. Compassion indeed.

He has so much compassion that he killed all his children, other than a small handful in a boat, with a flood. The word is genocide, and even we flawed humans know that genocide is immoral.

Thank god this monster is just a figment of our imagination.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Thank god this monster is just a figment of our imagination.

Yes, the monster is fake. But all the little monsters like Ephesians are not.

 

[Learner]

So the story of Lazarus is only told in John. It’s a sign of his miracles.

But Jesus tarries for two days after he hears that he’s sick. Then he says he’s going to wake him as a sign. So he knows that Lazarus has died. So he goes to Lazarus and being informed that Lazarus has been buried for four days, and by this time he stinks. And then he weeps.

Why? In John, Jesus is god. Just bring his soul to heaven. Death makes no difference after John’s Jesus is done. So why does he weep?

Because God has compassion. Duh.

He has so much compassion that he created all his children broken, cursed to sin, toil and death, and will roast them in hell forever if we don't bow down and accept him as our lord and master. Compassion indeed.

He has so much compassion that he killed all his children, other than a small handful in a boat, with a flood. The word is genocide, and even we flawed humans know that genocide is immoral.

Thank god this monster is just a figment of our imagination.

It seems to me - you have a totally different concept understanding of the bible, than many theists do (I am asssuming Ephesians understands it as I do), in contex that 'death and sin' came into the world, AFTER Adam and Eve (who were perfect in the first place) were decieved.

 

[Learner]

Thank god this monster is just a figment of our imagination.

Yes, the monster is fake. But all the little monsters like Ephesians are not.

Personally imho, and if you were honest to yourself. Ephesian would be the least of your worries, comparing with what madness there is out there, in the world.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Personally imho, and if you were honest to yourself. Ephesian would be the least of your worries, comparing with what madness there is out there, in the world.

Little monsters are little monsters. Life would be better without little monsters. If I can be convinced that I'm a ghost, be convinced to believe irrational things I'm capable of serious madness.

 

[SLD]

Personally imho, and if you were honest to yourself. Ephesian would be the least of your worries, comparing with what madness there is out there, in the world.

Little monsters are little monsters. Life would be better without little monsters. If I can be convinced that I'm a ghost, be convinced to believe irrational things I'm capable of serious madness.

He who can be made to believe in absurdities, can be made to commit atrocities.

 

[atrib]

So the story of Lazarus is only told in John. It’s a sign of his miracles.

But Jesus tarries for two days after he hears that he’s sick. Then he says he’s going to wake him as a sign. So he knows that Lazarus has died. So he goes to Lazarus and being informed that Lazarus has been buried for four days, and by this time he stinks. And then he weeps.

Why? In John, Jesus is god. Just bring his soul to heaven. Death makes no difference after John’s Jesus is done. So why does he weep?

Because God has compassion. Duh.

He has so much compassion that he created all his children broken, cursed to sin, toil and death, and will roast them in hell forever if we don't bow down and accept him as our lord and master. Compassion indeed.

He has so much compassion that he killed all his children, other than a small handful in a boat, with a flood. The word is genocide, and even we flawed humans know that genocide is immoral.

Thank god this monster is just a figment of our imagination.

It seems to me - you have a totally different concept understanding of the bible, than many theists do (I am asssuming Ephesians understands it as I do), in contex that 'death and sin' came into the world, AFTER Adam and Eve (who were perfect in the first place) were decieved.

Whose fault is that? God was the adult in the story, and he allowed Adam and Eve to be deceived, and then punished them even though they were innocents (by your own words). If I left a loaded gun in a room with an unsupervised child (the innocent in this scenario), and an accident happened when the child picked up the gun, whose fault would that be? Would you blame the child or the negligent parent? Why are you apologizing for this negligent god?

How does it make sense to punish humans for the transgressions of Adam and Eve? I didn't have anything to do with Adam and Eve, and your god still created me a sinner, destined for disease and death. What did I do deserve being born this way? And how does it make sense to punish me forever if I behave the way I was created to behave by this god? He programmed me to act this way. Why are you apologizing for this sadistic monster of a god?

How does global genocide make any sense? Parents who love their children don't kill them. But Christians claim that their god loves them. Why are you apologizing for this genocidal mass murderer?

You are blinded by your faith, and unwilling to ask these questions. Your faith is not a gift, it is a curse. You were not born a slave and you shouldn't live your life like one.

 

[Rhea]

This is such an interesting exhibition of the harm religion can do. The cheerful willingness to absolve the monser and blame the victims, using passive language and insinuation.

It seems to me - you have a totally different concept understanding of the bible, than many theists do (I am asssuming Ephesians understands it as I do), in contex that 'death and sin' came into the world, AFTER Adam and Eve (who were perfect in the first place) were decieved.

“Came into” as if it just, *poof* accidentally, oh, snap! where did that come from?
It didn’t “come into” the world at all, according to your story. It was brought in on purpose by the all powerful creator. Nothing is made, your story goes, except by it. Your god created evil, he created death and sin, brought them into the world and placed his victims right down into it.

“Were deceived.” So passive. Such an abbrogation of responsibility. You are willing to give the monster a pass. Even though your god created Adam and Eve without the ability to perceive deception, and then placed them right there with the deliberately made Ultimate Deceiver.

And your abusive god figure tells you to blame the guileless naive new humans for the outcome. And you do it.

“Were deceived.” “Came into.” So detached from responsibility. This is one of the evils of religion - that you are willing to ignore culpability and celebrate abuse.

We can see your “underestanding” of the bible, and how you place your abuser outside of responsibility for his own actions. And you’re right, we don’t “understand” the story the way you do, through a lens that enables evil.