Why is deconversion a long-term process, but conversions (sometimes) are quick?

[Brian63]

In either case, of a religious believer deconverting into a more secular view or a secularist converting into a religious view, the process is very difficult. It means having to rewrite how to think about the world, how to reinterpret past experiences and what they imply, how to reinterpret current and future experiences that we have, it all carries intense emotional pressure and strain on our minds. Existing relationships may become strained or lost, without any guarantee that new relationships with others can be formed. We can think we are alone. Our minds are simply stubborn and resist those risks and dangers. It requires a lot of emotional and psychological endurance in order to overcome it. The process takes a lot of time. In the years I have been in atheist circles, I cannot recall anyone describing how they went rapidly from becoming a theist (especially of fundamentalist varieties) to a nontheist practically overnight or in any similar short time frame. It is always a long struggle, grueling internal fight, and extended process. There may be significant moments which stick in a person's mind that propels them forward especially, but only temporarily. The process as a whole would not be completed in that one single swoop.

In contrast, lots of Christians (I would say a significant minority of the converted) tell of how their life was at some psychological and emotional low point, and then they had a particular "finding Jesus" moment. They may recall the exact date even (which may be helped because some other notable event occurred). The actual full blown conversion and complete immersion into the Christian view may take months or years, but still, people can often point to a single event on a single day that not only that convinced them that God and Jesus were real, but they also adapted their lives around those notions in a very short time. They may fall to the floor and hold their hands to the sky and cry out to God for forgiveness, when just 24 hours earlier they did not give a shit about God and religion.

Have you had encountered the same or other? What do you think would account for the asymmetry in how quickly our brains can change from one worldview to the other? The content of the worldview itself, the degree to which religious beliefs are integrated into the culture?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Have you had encountered the same or other? What do you think would account for the asymmetry in how quickly our brains can change from one worldview to the other? The content of the worldview itself, the degree to which religious beliefs are integrated into the culture?

I think the main appeal of religion is emotional. The decision to hew to emotions at the cost of rational evaluation is made in a part of our brain we don't have much control over.

The guy in Wernke's joke. Atheist in boot camp, bumped into him again a few months into Viet Nam. He was wearing a cross, a crucifix, a Star of David, talismans and symbols of a dozen different religions. "Dude, what happened?"
"I... I BELIEVE!"
"Believe in what, man, I can't tell."
"I... I can't afford to take any chances!"

Whatever the emotion, fear or love or hope or there's this really cute chick going into the Bible Studies class... The decision is made and presented as a fait accompli.

In the other direction, there's resistance to dropping an emotionally satisfying belief, but the rational mind keeps finding problems. Chips away at the belief a tiny bit at a time.

Although sometimes it's emotional in that direction, too.
Mom died, God didn't save her, God's a dick, I am going to withhold belief to punish Him. We'll call it atheism, because there's no term for angry belief suspension reflex.

 

[James Brown]

Pascal's Wager, isn't it? The old, "What if I'm wrong?" argument. The risks are greater in shedding supernatural belief--particularly if said beliefs promise eternal punishments for error.

People feel the pain of loss greater than the equivalent gain, even in ordinary circumstances such as small monetary bets. When my eternal soul is at stake, I'll take more time to make absolutely sure.

On the other hand, in my case, my conversion wasn't a quick process. I had been raised in a church, so I had seven years of message reinforcement before the trigger event that prompted me to pray the sinner's prayer. But my deconversion occurred in about a year.

 

[fromderinside]

Looking back across four church memberships I realize I never was a believer. So 'conversion' was never in the cards.

 

[masterpeastheater]

Are religious conversions all really that sudden? Most sudden conversions that i know of seem to bappen to two types of people. 1. Drug addicts-we've all heard of this. 2. Someone who has gone to church 3 times a week forever and then suddenly the preacherman puts it in their heads that theyre not reeeeeallllllyyyyy saaaaaavvvvvveeeeeeeedddddd!.

 

[Brian63]

Are religious conversions all really that sudden?

No.

The OP and even thread title emphasized that it was not an all-encompassing declaration, but moreso a generalization. I have no statistical data to back it up, only anecdotal observations of some religious Christians describing their conversion that way (as being a very quick event, on a particular date). In contrast, I cannot recall any secularist describing their deconversion as being that similarly quick.

Has anyone else encountered deconversions with that quality, or even experienced it themselves?

 

[southernhybrid]

Has anyone else encountered deconversions with that quality, or even experienced it themselves?

A former neighbor of mine deconverted instantly when his young son died during a sudden, short illness. The man was very religious, and prayed for his child, but his child died anyway. The man instantly realized that he had been fooled into believing in something that didn't exist.

The grandmother of the child remains religious. So different experiences affect individuals in different ways.

I guess it's more common for it to take longer to change if you've been heavily indoctrinated. While I didn't go from conservative Christian to atheist overnight. I did go from conservative Christian to agnostic Christian literally over night. Then I took a long, and interesting look at other religions before I realized my atheism. I enjoyed my journey very much, so I think of it as a very positive experience.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Don't discount the toxic connotation of 'atheist'. I've never believed in any religious orthodoxy whatever, but, living in the Midwest, I never self-identified (aloud) as atheist until I was in my forties. To a large mass of my countrymen, it is a hateful label, and to another, more liberal bunch, it has a harsh and radical sound -- I'm speaking of the folks who much prefer agnostic and who are quick to put forth hacky statements about atheism being arrogant. Atheists are most likely undercounted and true believers overcounted, because it is too easy to tell pollsters a comfortable lie. Hence the misty and near-meaningless concept of the 'nones' in religious polling. They sure are 'nones'!! The nones range from 'I'm very spiritual, but don't find what I need in any church' to the stone cold atheists.

 

[zorq]

Why is alcohol/nicotine/caffeine addiction such a quick and easy process but rehab and getting clean such a long difficult process?

Sometimes people get a "fix" from religion. Usually an emotional fix. Reconciling the emotional high with the irrational inconsistencies isn't easy. Recognizing that "feeling good" isn't always good for us is a challenge. Deliberately choosing to ditch the "high" in pursuit of better "health" takes a great deal of effort.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think the reason is as simple as understanding why kids stop believing in Santa.

Think about it for a second. When a kid hears that maybe Santa isn't real what does he do? He talks about it and asks questions of other people. Maybe he googles Santa on the internet. What does he find out? He finds that lots of other people that don't believe Santa is real, and that makes it okay to forget about Santa belief.

That doesn't happen with religious belief in the US. In some countries deciding that religion isn't worth the time or that gods aren't real or that there's a better more truthful version of god can get you punished, excluded, killed, etc. Even questioning it is taboo and most often met with ridicule and rejection.

So I think it's pretty easy to understand.

 

[steve_bank]

It is like brainwashing. Constant reputation creates permanent records and patterns in the brain. Difficult to change. Especialy when it starts as a kid. Probably related to endorphins. Religion feels good.

I will always feel Catholic in some ways.

There are advertising messages and slogans in my brain put there by TV as a kid I will never get rid of.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It is like brainwashing. Constant reputation creates permanent records and patterns in the brain. Difficult to change. Especialy when it starts as a kid. Probably related to endorphins. Religion feels good.

I will always feel Catholic in some ways.

There are advertising messages and slogans in my brain put there by TV as a kid I will never get rid of.

The exact same argument applies to belief in Santa. But then kids talk about Santa and find that all adults and lots of other kids that don't think Santa is real. This is the most critical difference, finding acceptance, and then more importantly, discovering that the majority doesn't think your Santa devotion is important or even correct.

Santa belief is equivalent to god belief, the magic, the acceptance, the explanations for how things work. The only critical difference is what one encounters when the belief is questioned. This fact alone accounts for the disparity discussed in the OP.

 

[Politesse]

If you mean something like "a transition from one exclusive faith position to another exclusive faith position", I don't think conversion or deconversion are ever truly "quick"; there may be a moment of epiphany here and there along the way, but the cards take a long time to set up. No one converts to a religion (or philosophical position) that they have never heard of before, it is always something that they have been exposed to for a long time. The only exceptions I can think of are mass conversions, where a family or political leader sort of converts everyone in their group all at once, whether or not they invest any personal meaning in the change.

There are of course traditions like Hinduism or contemporary Western Paganism that don't have exclusivity caveats in the first place and therefore wouldn't present any barrier with respect to picking up a new religion. But even there, there's a difference between picking up a new ritual or deity for a day, versus actually being initiated into a temple or coven in some long-term commitment sort of way. That's going to take longer to arrive at.

 

[skepticalbip]

It is like brainwashing. Constant reputation creates permanent records and patterns in the brain. Difficult to change. Especialy when it starts as a kid. Probably related to endorphins. Religion feels good.

I will always feel Catholic in some ways.

There are advertising messages and slogans in my brain put there by TV as a kid I will never get rid of.

The exact same argument applies to belief in Santa. But then kids talk about Santa and find that all adults and lots of other kids that don't think Santa is real. This is the most critical difference, finding acceptance, and then more importantly, discovering that the majority doesn't think your Santa devotion is important or even correct.

Santa belief is equivalent to god belief, the magic, the acceptance, the explanations for how things work. The only critical difference is what one encounters when the belief is questioned. This fact alone accounts for the disparity discussed in the OP.

There is a little difference of why Santa belief is more easily dispelled than religious belief. A kids Santa belief is only re-enforced for a few weeks before Christmas. Santa generally isn't even mentioned or thought about for the rest of the year. Religious belief is is a constant pounding with no letup throughout the year.

 

[Keith&Co.]

No one converts to a religion (or philosophical position) that they have never heard of before,

Well, Joe Smith and L. Ron Hubbard do come to mind... But it is a real niche conversion.

 

[Politesse]

No one converts to a religion (or philosophical position) that they have never heard of before,

Well, Joe Smith and L. Ron Hubbard do come to mind... But it is a real niche conversion.

Neither of their revelations popped out of nowhere, though; for Smith, there was a long period of "seeking" and dissatisfaction with his adolescent situation well before his principal mystical experiences occurred; Dianetics developed slowly over decades.

 

[Sarpedon]

I think in the case of conversions, the brain is already primed but there's no obvious sign.

When I left my religion, for a time I looked for a different one. I felt a need. Every new one I explored presented something tantalizing...I felt like jumping right in, every time. The only thing that stopped me was my self-critical inner voice, that told me to read a little more, find out a little more before committing. I can easily believe that someone who isn't as introspective as I am would have jumped into the first one that felt right. Indeed, I've seen a number of accounts of people who hop from one to another, in a similar way that I did, but with a longer period spent in each one, before it began to feel off.

Years of doubt primed me to leave, years of being religious primed me to look for another one. Critical self awareness kept me from landing. The first two are common, the third less so.

 

[steve_bank]

The difference is we know historically where the myth originated.

A man in past who was known for charity allegedly tossing sacks of coins to the people as he rode by. Became known as Saint Nicolas.

In the 19th century a poem.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think in the case of conversions, the brain is already primed but there's no obvious sign.

When I left my religion, for a time I looked for a different one. I felt a need. Every new one I explored presented something tantalizing...I felt like jumping right in, every time. The only thing that stopped me was my self-critical inner voice, that told me to read a little more, find out a little more before committing. I can easily believe that someone who isn't as introspective as I am would have jumped into the first one that felt right. Indeed, I've seen a number of accounts of people who hop from one to another, in a similar way that I did, but with a longer period spent in each one, before it began to feel off.

Years of doubt primed me to leave, years of being religious primed me to look for another one. Critical self awareness kept me from landing. The first two are common, the third less so.

How many people did you meet that said none of those beliefs were valid compared to people who believed? It's easy and quick to convert if every destination is already populated and acceptance is assured. I was forty years old before I met a person who in casual conversation said he didn't think that religious stuff was real. And even in saying so he was very discreet.

Kids give up on Santa because they find lots of other people who have given up on Santa. They perceive that it's okay. They don't get rejected, excluded, lectured, isolated, harangued, persecuted, demeaned or worse. There's nothing punitive about it, they're not made to feel ashamed or dirty. They're just as wholesome before and after, if anything they're made to feel more wholesome after. That's why they do it so easily.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Wait. Santa's not real??? Where do you think toys come from? They just pop up from NOTHING?