• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Why is FAIR TRADE better than FREE TRADE?

Choose between the following:

  • FREE TRADE is better than FAIR TRADE.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • FAIR TRADE is better than FREE TRADE.

    Votes: 17 85.0%

  • Total voters
    20
You keep repeating the same fallacies regardless of whatever is said or explained.

The issue of power imbalance between individual workers and employers has been described too many times. Market value of labour is suppressed through power imbalance, hence the formation of unions, collective bargaining, etc, etc....its a waste of time repeating the basics only to have it ignored.

Yet you carry on with your walls of text in the pretence that you are making points. It's crazy. As is your defense of a gross imbalance in power and wealth between the super rich class and everyone else.

Why keep repeating your beliefs and assertions in defense of the indefensible?
 
What is the damage all employers are inflicting that they should be punished as a class?

by driving up their costs artificially? including labor cost? forcing some of them (the less powerful ones) to shut down?


There is no evidence that this assault on employers as a class has produced any net benefit for society.

The issue is a power imbalance between workers and employers.

No, stop lumping everyone into the same category. Some workers do very well, some even millionaires and paid 6-digit salaries. While some employers have net NEGATIVE wealth when you consider the debt they're in, and others are struggling to stay out of debt. There is no such universal "power imbalance" between all workers and employers as you falsely claim. Yet your only prescription for change is to penalize every employer without exception, imposing unnecessary cost onto them, even causing some to shut down.


The inability of individual workers to leverage better pay and conditions for themselves while . . .

No, many workers are able to leverage better pay because they have more value. It's only the least valuable ones who have so little leverage.

. . . while the big end of town shows no apparent shortage of wealth and power.

Then why do you prescribe punishment onto even the small employers who are struggling and are short of wealth and power? You are lying to imply that ALL employers are the "big end of town" which they are not. You are bashing ALL employers with your program to drive up wages which they all must pay = higher cost = less production and higher prices to consumers. By doing this you make society worse off overall and punish a class who is not the "big end of town" with too much wealth and power. What is your obsession to bash all employers as a class, even the SMALL "end of town" ones?


Clearly it is not workers who are 'assaulting' employers or their businesses.

It's an assault on them to force them to shut down their business unless they increase wages up higher than the market value of the labor. Everyone promoting these higher costs onto them is assaulting them by inflicting this injury onto someone doing no harm, and causing a net injury to the whole society as a result of imposing these higher costs. In some cases the targeted businesses cannot comply because they are barely able to survive at the present cost level, and so they are forced to shut down, or some are prevented from opening their new business at the higher cost being imposed. This injury is done to them only out of hate for them as a class and not in order to promote any net social gain.

It is an "assault" on someone to shut them down and prevent them from operating their business which could otherwise serve society, or to impose a burdensome cost onto them which serves no net benefit to society.

Employers as a class are not guilty of something just because they try to save on cost, including labor cost. It is an act of aggression against them to impose costs onto them which serve no net benefit to society but only appease special interests, such as certain wage-earners or unions or populist demagogues and their idiot followers -- all at the expense of others, including even other wage-earners, who must pay the cost for the benefits gained by the favored special interests.


A business may struggle for any number of reasons, service or product saturation, too many competitors, government regulations, taxes, etc.

Any of these, in certain cases, might serve a legitimate social function, to the net benefit of society -- e.g., there is a benefit to society from competition, and there is a need for some regulations and taxes to serve the general interest of all society. But to force a class of buyers to pay a higher price than the market price benefits only the sellers of that particular item and not the whole society. There is no net social gain from injuring/penalizing one set of buyers/sellers in order to give preference to another set of buyers/sellers.

Penalizing certain producers/buyers could be legitimate only if the ones penalized are doing some social damage, or inflicting some social cost, such as a producer of a harmful product which is curtailed, perhaps by taxing it higher, etc., or in some other way imposing a price onto the producer to compensate for the damage.

But employers as a class are not inflicting any net social damage that they should compensate society for. To single them out as a class to have a punishing cost imposed onto them does not serve any legitimate social need. You demand this punishment of them without saying what need is served by it.


The assault in this instance is shown in your attitude toward workers.

Which workers? The workers which benefit from the imposed artificially higher labor cost are only a minority of the labor force.

You are being fraudulent whenever you lump ALL workers into the same category, as the phrase "toward workers" fraudulently lumps them all together into one group. The truth is that some workers or job-seekers are actually injured by the artificially higher labor cost imposed onto all employers. When you scapegoat one group -- all employers -- you also inflict harm onto other groups as well, not only the one target group you are scapegoating.

The artificially higher labor costs imposed by "fair trade" benefit only certain workers, not all, while they do inflict damage onto virtually all employers, in effect scapegoating all employers as a class, or especially the more marginal employers who cannot afford the higher cost your crusade imposes.

Many or most workers are actually made WORSE off by forcing employers to pay higher labor cost than the market value of the labor, because it curtails production, eliminating some jobs, and also driving up prices which ALL consumers must pay.

It is fraudulent to pretend that your attack on employers as a class is a benefit to all employees. It is deceptive demagoguery when you scapegoat a target class and then pretend that everyone else not in that class wins from the put-down of the scapegoated class, as your artificially-higher labor cost puts down the targeted employer class which you are scapegoating. You are lying to the employee class when you preach to them that it's to their benefit for the employer class to be targeted for this punishment. The truth is that many/most of those employees too pay a net cost for this demagoguery, even though some select favored ones realize a superficial short-term gain.
 
Costco just announced they will raise their minimum hourly rate to $16. The unemployment rate in the bottom quartile is 23%. That’s shareholder cream going to very replaceable people. Does Costco think these people have value or something?
 
by driving up their costs artificially? including labor cost? forcing some of them (the less powerful ones) to shut down?




No, stop lumping everyone into the same category. Some workers do very well, some even millionaires and paid 6-digit salaries. While some employers have net NEGATIVE wealth when you consider the debt they're in, and others are struggling to stay out of debt. There is no such universal "power imbalance" between all workers and employers as you falsely claim. Yet your only prescription for change is to penalize every employer without exception, imposing unnecessary cost onto them, even causing some to shut down.


The inability of individual workers to leverage better pay and conditions for themselves while . . .

No, many workers are able to leverage better pay because they have more value. It's only the least valuable ones who have so little leverage.

. . . while the big end of town shows no apparent shortage of wealth and power.

Then why do you prescribe punishment onto even the small employers who are struggling and are short of wealth and power? You are lying to imply that ALL employers are the "big end of town" which they are not. You are bashing ALL employers with your program to drive up wages which they all must pay = higher cost = less production and higher prices to consumers. By doing this you make society worse off overall and punish a class who is not the "big end of town" with too much wealth and power. What is your obsession to bash all employers as a class, even the SMALL "end of town" ones?


Clearly it is not workers who are 'assaulting' employers or their businesses.

It's an assault on them to force them to shut down their business unless they increase wages up higher than the market value of the labor. Everyone promoting these higher costs onto them is assaulting them by inflicting this injury onto someone doing no harm, and causing a net injury to the whole society as a result of imposing these higher costs. In some cases the targeted businesses cannot comply because they are barely able to survive at the present cost level, and so they are forced to shut down, or some are prevented from opening their new business at the higher cost being imposed. This injury is done to them only out of hate for them as a class and not in order to promote any net social gain.

It is an "assault" on someone to shut them down and prevent them from operating their business which could otherwise serve society, or to impose a burdensome cost onto them which serves no net benefit to society.

Employers as a class are not guilty of something just because they try to save on cost, including labor cost. It is an act of aggression against them to impose costs onto them which serve no net benefit to society but only appease special interests, such as certain wage-earners or unions or populist demagogues and their idiot followers -- all at the expense of others, including even other wage-earners, who must pay the cost for the benefits gained by the favored special interests.


A business may struggle for any number of reasons, service or product saturation, too many competitors, government regulations, taxes, etc.

Any of these, in certain cases, might serve a legitimate social function, to the net benefit of society -- e.g., there is a benefit to society from competition, and there is a need for some regulations and taxes to serve the general interest of all society. But to force a class of buyers to pay a higher price than the market price benefits only the sellers of that particular item and not the whole society. There is no net social gain from injuring/penalizing one set of buyers/sellers in order to give preference to another set of buyers/sellers.

Penalizing certain producers/buyers could be legitimate only if the ones penalized are doing some social damage, or inflicting some social cost, such as a producer of a harmful product which is curtailed, perhaps by taxing it higher, etc., or in some other way imposing a price onto the producer to compensate for the damage.

But employers as a class are not inflicting any net social damage that they should compensate society for. To single them out as a class to have a punishing cost imposed onto them does not serve any legitimate social need. You demand this punishment of them without saying what need is served by it.


The assault in this instance is shown in your attitude toward workers.

Which workers? The workers which benefit from the imposed artificially higher labor cost are only a minority of the labor force.

You are being fraudulent whenever you lump ALL workers into the same category, as the phrase "toward workers" fraudulently lumps them all together into one group. The truth is that some workers or job-seekers are actually injured by the artificially higher labor cost imposed onto all employers. When you scapegoat one group -- all employers -- you also inflict harm onto other groups as well, not only the one target group you are scapegoating.

The artificially higher labor costs imposed by "fair trade" benefit only certain workers, not all, while they do inflict damage onto virtually all employers, in effect scapegoating all employers as a class, or especially the more marginal employers who cannot afford the higher cost your crusade imposes.

Many or most workers are actually made WORSE off by forcing employers to pay higher labor cost than the market value of the labor, because it curtails production, eliminating some jobs, and also driving up prices which ALL consumers must pay.

It is fraudulent to pretend that your attack on employers as a class is a benefit to all employees. It is deceptive demagoguery when you scapegoat a target class and then pretend that everyone else not in that class wins from the put-down of the scapegoated class, as your artificially-higher labor cost puts down the targeted employer class which you are scapegoating. You are lying to the employee class when you preach to them that it's to their benefit for the employer class to be targeted for this punishment. The truth is that many/most of those employees too pay a net cost for this demagoguery, even though some select favored ones realize a superficial short-term gain.

You are simply asserting you claims, over and over, embedded in walls of text as is your habit. Your ideology has been refuted time and time again, yet you repeat them as if nothing has been said. Why do you do that?
 
You are simply asserting you claims, over and over, embedded in walls of text as is your habit. Your ideology has been refuted time and time again, yet you repeat them as if nothing has been said. Why do you do that?

Exactly. Repetition isn't proof.
 
You are simply asserting you claims, over and over, embedded in walls of text as is your habit. Your ideology has been refuted time and time again, yet you repeat them as if nothing has been said. Why do you do that?

Exactly. Repetition isn't proof.

Interesting.. .I know that I posted stats and examples of wage exploitation of workers, but I can't recall seeing you provide a shred of evidence, only dissent.
 
Re the two cents per
BMAC, a company never needs more than five levels of management.

x90Al6 HTy5rgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
1268125.009.png


x90Al6 HTy5rgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

Micky D can tighten up a bit. What chart shows is too many people in high pay grade positions. Substantial pruning is in order. Even if Operations were the company it has too many levels of sucking from corporate teat.

Another thing, partitioning in the way MD does encourages silos which is a company killer.

Recommendation - sell
 
Thank you for that, Fromder. For every mega corp ceo earning millions, there are dozens if not hundreds very near that same salary range.

I remember reading about the ceo of United Healthcare, a health insurance company. Not only was the ceo making large millions, there were over a hundred of other officers also making over a million a year. A health insurance company.
 
Re the two cents per
BMAC, a company never needs more than five levels of management.

x90Al6 HTy5rgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
1268125.009.png


x90Al6 HTy5rgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

Micky D can tighten up a bit. What chart shows is too many people in high pay grade positions. Substantial pruning is in order. Even if Operations were the company it has too many levels of sucking from corporate teat.

Another thing, partitioning in the way MD does encourages silos which is a company killer.

Recommendation - sell

That chart shows nothing of how many people are in high grade positions. It only shows positions, not the number of people in each position. And note that at the bottom there's very little differentiation between some of those positions. The "shift manager" is the person in charge of running things in a store at that given moment, but they're basically just another worker like the "Crew persons" that are "under" them, just with a bit of experience and trust from the higher ups to make reasonable on-the-spot calls.

As for no more than 5 levels ever being needed.....

Given McDonald's size and optimum arrangement of people every person not at the bottom would have either 8 or 9 reports. Oops! Plenty of fast food places don't have 9 people working at once, it would be impossible to have a shift manager--but you need someone empowered to make the on-the-spot decisions. Democracy isn't viable (even if you completely trusted your workers you don't want everyone pulled off their job to learn about the situation and vote on it!) and I doubt there's a fast food place out there that has 9 shifts--once again, you can't maintain the ratio. And while I don't know a lot about how McDonald's is run I strongly suspect "First Assistant" is more akin to "Vice President"--backup, not a true separate command level. You don't have a "Store Manager" managing 8 "First Assistants".
 
Greed and self interest rules, the top end of town look after their own.

Wages are being systemically suppressed;

''The economy is growing but our paychecks are not. That’s because employers have, over decades, built a political apparatus to hold down pay''

''When unemployment goes down, wages are supposed to go up. That’s just supply and demand. Quite puzzlingly, though, this mechanism seems not to be working today. Unemployment stands at a modest 4%, but paychecks aren’t growing. Although today’s is the best-educated workforce in history, employers just insist that workers need more training.

In other words, they’re gaslighting us. Meanwhile, over decades, employers have built and maintained a massive collective political apparatus to hold down wages. To call it a conspiracy would be only slight embellishment.

The symptoms of the problem are not hard to miss. In February, for example, the American economy posted its biggest one-month jobs gain in a couple years, but wage growth stayed stalled out. For months, economists and financial journalists have been puzzling over the question, as Bloomberg put it, of “why the economy grows but your paycheck doesn’t”.

Economists will tell you that wages generally increase with productivity – that you’re paid in line with the value of what you do. This was credible from the end of the second world war to the 1970s, when productivity and hourly wages rose almost perfectly in sync. But according to research by the Economic Policy Institute, from the early 1970s to 2016 productivity went up 73.7%, and wages only 12.3%.

Similarly, there used to be a positive relationship between stock prices and wage increases. But some initial signs of wage growth in February sent the market spiraling over inflation fears – until it became clear that the reported wage gains were all concentrated among top earners. Then everyone calmed down and stopped selling.''
 
Greed and self interest rules, the top end of town look after their own.

Wages are being systemically suppressed;

''The economy is growing but our paychecks are not. That’s because employers have, over decades, built a political apparatus to hold down pay''

''When unemployment goes down, wages are supposed to go up. That’s just supply and demand. Quite puzzlingly, though, this mechanism seems not to be working today. Unemployment stands at a modest 4%, but paychecks aren’t growing. Although today’s is the best-educated workforce in history, employers just insist that workers need more training.

In other words, they’re gaslighting us. Meanwhile, over decades, employers have built and maintained a massive collective political apparatus to hold down wages. To call it a conspiracy would be only slight embellishment.

Disagree--I think the problem is with the yardstick. Which is the easier explanation--that somehow employers can circumvent the basic market forces, or that the unemployment measure is wrong? To me the latter seems much simpler. I think what's going on is the gig economy. People are not "unemployed" when they are managing to make a bit of money at various gig type jobs.
 
Greed and self interest rules, the top end of town look after their own.

Wages are being systemically suppressed;

''The economy is growing but our paychecks are not. That’s because employers have, over decades, built a political apparatus to hold down pay''

''When unemployment goes down, wages are supposed to go up. That’s just supply and demand. Quite puzzlingly, though, this mechanism seems not to be working today. Unemployment stands at a modest 4%, but paychecks aren’t growing. Although today’s is the best-educated workforce in history, employers just insist that workers need more training.

In other words, they’re gaslighting us. Meanwhile, over decades, employers have built and maintained a massive collective political apparatus to hold down wages. To call it a conspiracy would be only slight embellishment.

Disagree--I think the problem is with the yardstick. Which is the easier explanation--that somehow employers can circumvent the basic market forces, or that the unemployment measure is wrong? To me the latter seems much simpler. I think what's going on is the gig economy. People are not "unemployed" when they are managing to make a bit of money at various gig type jobs.

Disagree as much as you like. Disagreeing doesn't alter the fact that there are systemic advantages in place to benefit the rich and powerful.....put in place by.....you guessed it!
 
Greed and self interest rules, the top end of town look after their own.

Wages are being systemically suppressed;

''The economy is growing but our paychecks are not. That’s because employers have, over decades, built a political apparatus to hold down pay''

''When unemployment goes down, wages are supposed to go up. That’s just supply and demand. Quite puzzlingly, though, this mechanism seems not to be working today. Unemployment stands at a modest 4%, but paychecks aren’t growing. Although today’s is the best-educated workforce in history, employers just insist that workers need more training.

In other words, they’re gaslighting us. Meanwhile, over decades, employers have built and maintained a massive collective political apparatus to hold down wages. To call it a conspiracy would be only slight embellishment.

Disagree--I think the problem is with the yardstick. Which is the easier explanation--that somehow employers can circumvent the basic market forces, or that the unemployment measure is wrong? To me the latter seems much simpler. I think what's going on is the gig economy. People are not "unemployed" when they are managing to make a bit of money at various gig type jobs.

Disagree as much as you like. Disagreeing doesn't alter the fact that there are systemic advantages in place to benefit the rich and powerful.....put in place by.....you guessed it!

You're not even addressing my point.
 
Disagree as much as you like. Disagreeing doesn't alter the fact that there are systemic advantages in place to benefit the rich and powerful.....put in place by.....you guessed it!

You're not even addressing my point.

I'm not aware that you made one. An objection is not a point.

I'm saying your argument is based on the assuming the unemployment rate really is that low. I don't believe it is.
 
Greed and self interest rules, the top end of town look after their own.

Wages are being systemically suppressed;

''The economy is growing but our paychecks are not. That’s because employers have, over decades, built a political apparatus to hold down pay''

''When unemployment goes down, wages are supposed to go up. That’s just supply and demand. Quite puzzlingly, though, this mechanism seems not to be working today. Unemployment stands at a modest 4%, but paychecks aren’t growing. Although today’s is the best-educated workforce in history, employers just insist that workers need more training.

In other words, they’re gaslighting us. Meanwhile, over decades, employers have built and maintained a massive collective political apparatus to hold down wages. To call it a conspiracy would be only slight embellishment.

Disagree--I think the problem is with the yardstick. Which is the easier explanation--that somehow employers can circumvent the basic market forces, or that the unemployment measure is wrong? To me the latter seems much simpler. I think what's going on is the gig economy. People are not "unemployed" when they are managing to make a bit of money at various gig type jobs.
Power is a basic market force. So employers using their market power are using basic market forces.
 
Back
Top Bottom