DrZoidberg
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They can still have all that while also being honest about that maybe perhaps God isn't exactly this way or another.
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Why is it so important for theists that God exists?
- Thread starter DrZoidberg
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They can still have all that while also being honest about that maybe perhaps God isn't exactly this way or another.
Sarpedon
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I have to concur with those who say it is about the afterlife. Whenever I have a told a believer I'm an atheist, and they are inclined to discuss it, the first question out of their mouth is not "But how did the universe come to be?" Instead it is, invariably 'What happens to you after you die?" That is the most important thing to them. If belief were about something else, the question would be something else.
And as far as the 'maybe' question goes: The brighter ones already acknowledge the 'maybe' aspect. To others, even to use such a word is to admit doubt. And frankly, I don't think there are any who don't doubt, and fear doubt.
And as far as the 'maybe' question goes: The brighter ones already acknowledge the 'maybe' aspect. To others, even to use such a word is to admit doubt. And frankly, I don't think there are any who don't doubt, and fear doubt.
couch_sloth
Member
Many of the theists I know (here in the U.S.), are not worried so much about most specifics. They seem to believe: that God is good, that God wants them to act morally, And that if they try to be good & believe then they'll go to heaven.
These types of theists tend to simply say they believe in God, but they don't actively belong to any religious denomination; or at least they don't attend church very often. They are vaguely Christian.
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couch_sloth
Member
Zoiberg, It could be that there's a fundamental difference in how most Americans and most Scandinavians view religion, view death and the question of an afterlife.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Sure. I am a typical Swede. But this is bigger than that. Why have strong faith about something that's essentially just guesswork. It doesn't matter how strong faith a Christian have the fact remains that nobody knows for a fact. A Christian who says they're 100% God exists is just an arrogant ass. It's as simple as that. And if a Christian says they're 100% sure the Bible is the word of God, also arrogance. No they're not. At best they can hope it does. Which is fine.
The teachings of the Bible is not dependent on God existing or even them believing in God. It's dependent on the reader reading it. I remember reading the Baghavad Gita and I reached a section about the importance of forgiveness. A beautiful piece. I can honestly say it changed my life. I was an atheist before that, during reading it and continued to be an atheist after that. But after having read it I was much quicker to forgive. The Bible and Quran also goes on about the importance of forgiveness endlessly. There's valuable lessons here that are not dependent on belief in God.
What I'm talking about is much bigger than just a Swedish outlook. It's just basic epistemology. Nobody can be 100% or anything really. We all need to have an open mind. And when it comes to something like God/god/gods. Well... there's quite a few to chose between. If you're certain that your pet god is the real one, and the other's are all wrong, you're just a fool. Again... arrogance.
I will always ignore what arrogant people say. What they have to say isn't interesting. You only get interesting by being humble, listen carefully and be prepared to be wrong. If not you won't grow. This is also a theme that runs through all religions. Sure, they in one breath says that God is such and such, and in the next say that God is ineffable. I don't judge too harshly. These texts evolved over time and was most likely written by a whole host of people who all had different ideas. It was also written on several levels. Partly for deep people who had read philosophy. And partly for the common riff-raff for whom it needs to be kept simple and straight forward. All religious texts contain both types of material. The Bible is no different.
Fundamentally it's about honesty. Daring to be honest about one's uncertainties and daring to be vulnerable.
In other words, why do theists have strong convictions?
There are probably various reasons for different people:
- They were indoctrinated as children
- They had a Road to Damascus moment
- It satisfies some emotional need
- They read the holy book and found it convincing
However it is interesting to witness theists resort to blatant intellectual dishonestly to defend their convictions. The endless wave of apologists who recycle arguments that have been refuted for decades or even centuries. It's probably a defence mechanism to avoid the painful cognitive dissonance that must arise when doctrine conflicts with reason.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
But they must surely be aware of other religions, or even atheists. How do they explain that? Assuming that your group sits on all the answers and the other's are just wrong is... well... isn't that like narcisstic personality disorder? Delusions of grandeur?
Ok. Yeah, I see how that might convince an uneducated mind.
Another good one. But won't work on the more rationally inclined. There's lots of well educated Christians.
This I doubt. I strongly doubt anybody started out by reading a holy book and then became a believer. Isaac Asimov was a Christian and thought all good Christians should have read the Bible. So he read the Bible and became an atheist. He's quoted with saying "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
Nah. If you're not already a faithful there's just no way of getting all those square pegs into the round holes.
Yup, fascinating. Reading Mere Christianity it's easy to dismiss C.S. Lewis as a sloppy thinker. Until you read his other stuff, and it's head and shoulders above that book. I've wondered how strong someones faith to be for an intelligent man's brain to fall so completely out of the skull. Because C.S. Lewis was undoubtedly a brilliant man. Just not when writing that book.
What's more fascinating is that they don't look any of those apologist arguments up. The refutations are the same now as they were 2000 years ago.
I don't think they assume--I think they are conditioned to believe the doctrine. Theists have various ways of rationalising it, such as the somewhat conciliatory belief that all religions actually Jehovah/Jesus but they just go about it differently, and atheists secretly believe in God.
I've seen testimonies from the educated, too. Even educated people can be emotionally and psychologically vulnerable and can have a powerful religious experience.
I agree, but it certainly applies to those who aren't rational and are primed for conversion (like the New Age crowd). I also think rational people are very rare. Even within the atheist community, people base their political views on emotional judgments.
Consider Jeffrey Lang as an example. He claims to have been converted to Islam by the Qu'ran.
C.S. Lewis was from a religious family in a religious society: he grew up in Belfast in an Anglican household and his grandfather was a priest. It's highly likely that he was indoctrinated from a young age, at home, school and church.
One other reason is 'Loyalty' to one's cultural background and neighbours. If one's family has always been religious you don't want to rain on their parade and hurt their feelings.
It's another thing on the net where your opinions are anonymous.
DrZoidberg if I may tell you I have met 6 Swedish people in my life and the thing they had in common is that they had become so 'sophisticated and emancipated' (a view they also encouraged) they had lost their barbarity-so to speak- and were no longer in touch with the fanfare of the common man...
no offence intended.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
DrZoidberg if I may tell you I have met 6 Swedish people in my life and the thing they had in common is that they had become so 'sophisticated and emancipated' (a view they also encouraged) they had lost their barbarity-so to speak- and were no longer in touch with the fanfare of the common man...
None taken. I also largely agree. A problem with Sweden is that this is an anti-intellectual culture. And as such we don't really discuss topics like philosophy and religion. We don't get much practice with it. And we all need practice. It's Dunning-Kruger paradox. I said and thought all manner of foolishness when I started exploring the outside world. I was still an atheist. But I hadn't really thought it through.
A good comparison is Australia, which is a similar country in it's anti-intellectualism. I also know it fairly well. But there the Christian faith is common. Not that they're particularly active Christians. An untrained mind will be fairly random in what it believes. And I believe that's the case with both Sweden's atheism as well as Australia's Christianity.
Can be compared with France, Eastern Europe or Iran where intellectualism is put on a pedestal and admired. You don't need to look hard to find someone who can give a nuanced explanation of their outlook complete with names of philosophers and references to contemporary thinkers. Being religious in these places is rarely simple and straightforward. Because life isn't simple and straightforward.
One thing that Sweden and Swedish atheism has going for it is that we don't indoctrinate our children either way. Kids here really need to find their own way in life. But of course, if they do want to explore their beliefs, or lack of them there's really no help to find. Unless they turn to the Internet and ask foreigners like you
DrZoidberg if I may tell you I have met 6 Swedish people in my life and the thing they had in common is that they had become so 'sophisticated and emancipated' (a view they also encouraged) they had lost their barbarity-so to speak- and were no longer in touch with the fanfare of the common man...
None taken. I also largely agree. A problem with Sweden is that this is an anti-intellectual culture. And as such we don't really discuss topics like philosophy and religion. We don't get much practice with it. And we all need practice. It's Dunning-Kruger paradox. I said and thought all manner of foolishness when I started exploring the outside world. I was still an atheist. But I hadn't really thought it through.
A good comparison is Australia, which is a similar country in it's anti-intellectualism. I also know it fairly well. But there the Christian faith is common. Not that they're particularly active Christians. An untrained mind will be fairly random in what it believes. And I believe that's the case with both Sweden's atheism as well as Australia's Christianity.
Can be compared with France, Eastern Europe or Iran where intellectualism is put on a pedestal and admired. You don't need to look hard to find someone who can give a nuanced explanation of their outlook complete with names of philosophers and references to contemporary thinkers. Being religious in these places is rarely simple and straightforward. Because life isn't simple and straightforward.
One thing that Sweden and Swedish atheism has going for it is that we don't indoctrinate our children either way. Kids here really need to find their own way in life. But of course, if they do want to explore their beliefs, or lack of them there's really no help to find. Unless they turn to the Internet and ask foreigners like you
There's always ABBA ...
Thanks for your pleasant response, best wishes.
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James Brown
Veteran Member
Speaking from my own evangelical, Young-Earth Creationist Christian experience here. I was born and raised a Baptist and attended private Christian schools through college.
Sure, I knew about other religions and even non-believers, but I was taught very little about them other than how wrong they were compared to us. Is that delusions of grandeur? I know there are people who think that vaccines are harmful, but I don't think it's uppity of me to say they're wrong.
When I was around 12 or 13, I asked my Mom how we know we're right when other religions say we're wrong. My Mom said, "We have the Bible that assures of our belief." That satisfied me at the time.
I don't think this is correct. I've read his last autobiography, I, Asimov, and I believe his family was nominally Jewish. When he got around to actually reading the Bible as a teenager (IIRC) he knew because of his science and science fiction background that the Bible's cosmology was horrid. I'll double-check my copy of his book when I get a chance, but I don't think Asimov was ever tempted to be religious. He'd studied religions thoroughly and wrote several books about Christianity and the Bible, but always from a skeptic's viewpoint.
Not to me, it wasn't. When I finally read MC in college, it was like scales fell from my eyes, and I voraciously read his works (and his works alone) and dedicated myself to become a non-professional Christian apologist. Bear in mind, this was before the widespread existence of the World Wide Web.
A few years later, when I started hanging out on an atheist's message board with the intent to witness and convert them to Christ, I started deploying the lessons I learned from Lewis on the theory that they had never heard these bullet-proof arguments before. I quickly learned that they had indeed heard them before--countless times--and they pointed me to web pages that tore apart Lewis' arguments as the tissue-paper they are. But of course, I never knew these websites existed, and it's not as though the publisher of Mere Christianity provided links to rebuttals on the back page of the book.
DrZ, I don't think you understand the power of indoctrination. When all you've heard since birth is one viewpoint, it's easy to think that it's the only viewpoint that exists, or that matters. I didn't receive much "History of Religion" education or anything similar. Just "We're right, they're wrong, and thank God for that."
I think this is part of the reason why recently-deconverted atheists are so angry and passionate. They see these religious rebuttals that make such perfect sense to them, and they ask "Why didn't anyone tell me this earlier? I've wasted so much time and resources on nonsense!"
I know for myself, I didn't look up the refutations until atheists that I was arguing with rubbed my nose in them. My parents and teachers and pastors didn't look them up because they didn't care to. They had their religion, it fulfilled their needs, and they were secure in their beliefs.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Interesting getting to hear the "other side". Thanks.
I probably don't, because I wasn't indoctrinated. Not with anything religious anyway. How could I possibly know that I have been indoctrinated unless at some point I change stand point? I haven't really. My beliefs, throughout my life, have been pretty stable.
Nice to know that being an atheist dick on-line makes the world a better place
James Brown
Veteran Member
The guys on the Reasonable Doubts podcast made a nice contrast.
Learning about only one religion is Indoctrination.
Learning about multiple religions is Inoculation.
Learning about only one religion is Indoctrination.
Learning about multiple religions is Inoculation.
James Brown
Veteran Member
Nice to know that being an atheist dick on-line makes the world a better place
Good one. I will say that on that board there were definitely some hostile dickish atheists, but there were also plenty of kind, patient, articulate atheists who were were willing to respond to my fumbling attempts of evangelism with grace and humor.
But as they say, wars are won by soldiers and diplomats.
abaddon
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Not necessarily against religion entirely.
It's something I usually ignore, but sometimes don't, that this board is extremely christocentric. I get it... their background is Christianity. But still, it's more than an askew focus to keep conflating religion and theism over and over. Buddhism and early Daoism are brilliant religious/mystical philosophies. And I could go on about them but it's not the topic. Point is, learning world religions can open the mind to the the diversity of beliefs, including the occasional brilliance, when exclusive focus on fundy's superstitions and "revealed" holy texts can do the opposite.
Everyone could use a wider education in world religions.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
It's not only true of Christians. Atheists living in culturally Christian countries have lots of brain failures thanks to that. Take a concept like atheism. Makes no sense outside monotheism. The terminology assumes there's just one dominant faith that we can reject or embrace, or not be sure about. It also focuses on belief. In history there's only been two religions that gave a shit about what it's followers believed. The rest of them only care about if the followers did the rituals. You could be a atheistic pagan Viking just fine. We really a new concept of being non-theistic. The word atheism is far to vague to be meaningful. I mean, a Christian is a Hindu atheist. That's just bizarre terminology
And this is just an example of one that I've spotted. Could be loads of ways of thinking about the world which our Christian heritage "chains" us to.
Malintent
Veteran Member
It will be very tricky for all of those things that you consider YOU to just vanish. you would have to be living under a rock. Your loved ones, children, all the people you have ever effected all throughout your life... all the work you have done, all of the charity you have provided... it doesn;t just retroactively cease to exist. Only your body and consciousness are gone... everything else about you will last an eternity.
Ever try to get something taken down off the internet? No, what matters about you will be around a long, long time.
your consciousness and the "selfish you"... the me, me, me.. bit? ya, that's gonna just vanish. get over it faster so you can enjoy the honest life sooner.
Malintent
Veteran Member
Oh is that all?
Just that, and kill anyone that draws a cartoon depicting Mohamed, but that's all.
.. and never use the same dishes to serve meat and non-meat... but that's all.
... and make it illegal for women to make decisions concerning their own bodies, but that's all.
... and stone people to death for not covering their hair.. but that's all.
.. and have a century-long war with people because they don't believe the same things.. but THAT's all.
If 'we just acknowledge some thing about the universe' was ALL, then no one would have a problem with how idiotic it is... it would be no different than uncle Ernie's drunken ravings... unfortunately, that is far from ALL, and it is more like what uncle Ernie did to poor little Tommy when mommy went out with her new boyfriend.
