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Why shouldn't Americans be allowed to buy this superior product?

Should U.S. consumers be allowed to buy a Chinese EV?

  • No, U.S. autoworkers must be protected from such competition.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, if it's not made in America it's crap, junk.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, the car probably has secret spying equipment.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, our President knows what's best for us.

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • No, protecting U.S. auto jobs takes priority over all else.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, the car is only an illusion. It turns into a pumpkin at midnight.

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • No, anything that helps China must make America worse off.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, competition is bad for the economy.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, China is our Enemy and everything Chinese must be condemned.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, free choice for consumers is best for the economy.

    Votes: 2 50.0%

  • Total voters
    4

Lumpenproletariat

Veteran Member
Joined
May 9, 2014
Messages
2,703
Basic Beliefs
---- "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."


It looks like the Chinese are surpassing the U.S. in auto production. Why should U.S. consumers continue to be denied the benefits of the improved Chinese technology and cost savings? and even environmental benefits? This includes competition also with hybrids, as part of the overall competition toward lower cost and cleaner technology, where gradual transition to electric power works better.


The following is a "commercial" of some kind about a Chinese electric car with a base price of about $5,000 or $6,000

promotional video

Let's say the no-tariff price now would be around $5,000, as the video says. Then why not allow Americans to buy this for $6 or $7 thousand? So, a modest tax of 5% or 10% or so. What is the problem with America's thoughtless selfish auto workers that they (and their Biden/Trump-Repub/Democrat protectors) must deny consumers access to this competitive product? What is the problem with these uncompetitive crybaby U.S. autoworkers? What are they good for, other than to make consumers worse off? If these unionized auto workers did not exist, all U.S. consumers (virtually the entire U.S. population) would be better off.

Google Search question: Is it possible to buy a Chinese EV in the U.S.?
Google answer:
No, Chinese EVs are not generally available for purchase in the U.S. While some Chinese EVs may be imported, they are not typically sold by authorized dealerships or readily available to the public. This is primarily due to tariffs and regulations that make it financially and practically challenging for Chinese automakers to sell their vehicles in the U.S. market.

Can someone explain why an environmentally beneficial product has to be forbidden to Americans? Why are U.S. autoworkers treated as a privileged class whose interests supersede everyone else's, including the poor? Why do both Republicans and Democrats agree that autoworkers are a superior class who take priority over all the rest of us? Why do Progressives agree with President Trump? and even try to excel him in China-bashing? (Biden increasing Trump's extreme tariffs on Chinese EVs)



Is the problem that in America there are not enough charging stations? So therefore EVs are not appropriate yet? Well, why aren't there more charging stations? Who is preventing them? Why are Americans so stupid that they cannot provide charging stations, when the Chinese have been able to:



So stop seeking excuses why Americans should not have EVs.

Get over your autoworkers religion. Stop worshipping this class of crybabies who want to take all the rest of us down with them.

And get over your China-bashing sickness -- it makes the country worse off, not better.







 
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EVs are marginally environmentally better than ICEs. Also, Chinese EVs won't be that cheap. Currently notably cheaper, but not single thousands cheap.

Why shouldn't Chinese EVs be sold in the US? I have no good reason to stop it. Personally, I feel EV or H2 infrastructure is cart before the horse as we don't have a remotely green grid yet, and we aren't even on the path to get there.
 
I wonder if they have the same safety equipment US cars are required to have.
 
There's no option on your list for the likeliest issue. US safety standards, for better or worse, are tough and strictly enforced.

I don't think it likely that anyone can build a car on the budget described that comes close to meeting them.
Tom

ETA ~Zipr beat me to it ~
 
EVs are marginally environmentally better than ICEs.
...IF you live in a place where nighttime electricity mostly comes from nuclear, hydro, or wind power; OR a place with lots of solar power, and you mostly charge your car during the daytime.

If your local electricity grid is mostly gas power, it's pretty much a wash; If your grid is mostly coal power, the EV is worse than a gasoline powered vehicle from the perspective of the global environment, though it will help with local air quality if you mostly drive in built up areas.

And of course, there is the question of environmental damage due to manufacture of the EV (particularly, but not only, its batteries). One reason Chinese EVs are cheap, is that BYD and other Chinese companies don't have to comply with OECD nations' rules about how to protect either the environment or their workforce from the hazards and waste products inherent to their manufacturing and raw material acquisition processes.

There are lots of BYD (and Tesla) vehicles here in Queensland. I very much doubt that many of them are being charged during the daytime.

IMG_2553.jpeg
IMG_2554.jpeg
IMG_2555.jpeg
 
The following is a "commercial" of some kind about a Chinese electric car with a base price of about $5,000 or $6,000
At that price it would still be a bargain and no doubt in high demand with a 145% tariff.

I'm going to bet it wouldn't meet safety standards and wouldn't look very pretty after colliding with an average US-built sedan...
 
So stop seeking excuses why Americans should not have EVs.

EV sales have pretty much plateaued. Ford lost billions on their EV division. EV sales are (or at least they were) propped up massively by government subsidies.

ICE is the way to go, particularly the hybrid.
 
. EV sales are (or at least they were) propped up massively by government subsidies
I'd bet that someone smarter than me could estimate how much of Musk's billions were originally tax payers money. From Tesla to SpaceX, c'mon. An African immigrant with connections got super rich sucking the teat of the taxpayers. So rich, he could buy a president.
Tom
 
EV charging stations are also vandalized alot for a variety of reasons including stealing the copper wire.

Unless these are protected, and maintained, we have a long way to go.
 
EV charging stations are also vandalized alot for a variety of reasons including stealing the copper wire.

Unless these are protected, and maintained, we have a long way to go.
Among the few things I agree with @TSwizzle on is this:
ICE is the way to go, particularly the hybrid.

Given current technology and infrastructure, the combination of powering the car with electric and powering the electric with an ICE generator seems ideal to me.
Tom
 
EVs are marginally environmentally better than ICEs.
I would say much more than "marginally".
Also, Chinese EVs won't be that cheap. Currently notably cheaper, but not single thousands cheap.
I agree. The $6k price tag is not sustainable once the cars are brought up to US crash test standards, not to mention the manufacturers establish a US dealer network. Although, I think the compulsory dealership model is obsolete and should be done away with.
Btw, I looked up a random Chinese EV for sale in Europe, BYD Atto 2, which is a compact SUV. It's about 30,000€, which is certainly not super-cheap!
Why shouldn't Chinese EVs be sold in the US? I have no good reason to stop it. Personally, I feel EV or H2 infrastructure is cart before the horse as we don't have a remotely green grid yet, and we aren't even on the path to get there.
I think H2 is not practical for personal mobility, and BEV is the superior technology there.
And our grid is much greener than it was say 20 years ago.
electricity.jpg
Note the precipitous decline in coal use and its replacement with both natural gas (due in large part to fracking/shale revolution) and renewables.
Now, some countries have much greener grids. Take France for example.
lowcarbonpower.org-France.png

Note the prevalence of nuclear power.
 
I wonder if they have the same safety equipment US cars are required to have.
The $6k vehicle certainly does not.
The cars sold in Europe should be comparable to US regarding safety, and Chinese EVs sold in Europe are not nearly this cheap of course.
 
Note the prevalence of nuclear power.
You might want to take a look at how the French managed that.

IIRC, they approved one design and built multiple similar reactors. Nothing about high tech innovations. They hugely reduced the risk of a nuclear disaster by doing that.

I used to be very opposed to nuclear power plants, I thought the answer was to reduce power usage. Crank the price of fossil fuel until people stopped wasting so much power, and brought consumption into line with sustainable power at affordable prices.

Yeah well, I'm glad I am old enough that I don't have to care about what the kids are stuck with.
Tom
 
EVs are marginally environmentally better than ICEs.
...IF you live in a place where nighttime electricity mostly comes from nuclear, hydro, or wind power; OR a place with lots of solar power, and you mostly charge your car during the daytime.

If your local electricity grid is mostly gas power, it's pretty much a wash; If your grid is mostly coal power, the EV is worse than a gasoline powered vehicle from the perspective of the global environment, though it will help with local air quality if you mostly drive in built up areas.
Not according to what I have seen. Take this, for example.
EV-map-2025-Average.png

From here. It shows what MPG a gasoline ICE car must have to have the same emissions as an EV, given the local electricity grid.
Even when much of your electricity comes from coal, EVs are still better than the average 30-40 MPG gasoline car because ICEs are very inefficient. EVs themselves are much more efficient, and large power plants are also much more efficient than a million small heat engines connected to wheels.

And of course, there is the question of environmental damage due to manufacture of the EV (particularly, but not only, its batteries).
Should be compared to manufacture of ICE cars. The engines are much more complex than electric motors, as are transmissions and emissions control gizmos.
One reason Chinese EVs are cheap, is that BYD and other Chinese companies don't have to comply with OECD nations' rules about how to protect either the environment or their workforce from the hazards and waste products inherent to their manufacturing and raw material acquisition processes.
True. One legitimate use of tariffs would be to pressure countries like China to implement stricter environmental standards.

There are lots of BYD (and Tesla) vehicles here in Queensland. I very much doubt that many of them are being charged during the daytime.
Normally, electricity use is much lower at night. Seems like a perfect time to charge your EV at home.
Now, Australia still uses a lot of coal, although it has come down in recent years.
australian_electricity_generation_by_fuel_mix2024.png
I am a bit surprised Australia has no nuclear power. Would be a great way to get rid of coal.
 
It's mainly about China-bashing, not safety standards.

I wonder if they have the same safety equipment US cars are required to have.

There's no option on your list for the likeliest issue. US safety standards, for better or worse, are tough and strictly enforced.

I don't think it likely that anyone can build a car on the budget described that comes close to meeting them.

I'm going to bet it wouldn't meet safety standards and wouldn't look very pretty after colliding with an average US-built sedan...



Google Search question: What is the safety record of EVs compared to gasoline cars?

Google answer:
Electric vehicles (EVs) generally have a similar or better safety record than gasoline cars, especially in terms of fire risk and injury claims in accidents. While EVs are not immune to fires, they are statistically less likely to catch fire than gas-powered vehicles. Furthermore, data suggests that EV drivers may experience fewer injury claims in accidents compared to drivers of similar gas-powered vehicles.


Here's a more detailed breakdown:
  • Fire Risk:
    Studies indicate that EVs are significantly less fire-prone than gas-powered vehicles. While EV battery fires are more challenging to extinguish, the overall frequency of fires in EVs is lower.

  • Crash Safety:
    Data from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) shows that EVs are not only as safe as gas cars in crashes but may even be associated with fewer injury claims.

  • Advanced Safety Features:
    Many EVs come equipped with advanced safety features like automatic emergency braking and adaptive cruise control, which can help prevent accidents.

  • Potential for Lower Injury Claims:
    Research suggests that EV drivers may be tied to fewer injury claims compared to drivers of similar gas-powered vehicles in accidents.

  • Reasons for the Perception of EV Fires:
    Media attention and the novel nature of EVs may contribute to a perception of increased fire risk, even though the actual fire rates are lower.
  • <- ignore this fucking dot.

Google Search question: What is the safety record of Chinese EVs compared to U.S. cars?

Google answer:
In general, Chinese EVs are achieving strong safety ratings in international crash tests and are equipped with advanced safety features. However, there have been concerns raised about specific models and battery fire incidents.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Safety Ratings and Features:
  • Strong International Ratings:
    Many Chinese EVs, including brands like NIO, BYD, and Geely, have achieved five-star safety ratings in Euro NCAP and ANCAP crash tests.
  • Advanced Safety Features:
    Modern Chinese EVs often come equipped with advanced safety features like airbags, anti-lock brakes, and electronic stability control.
  • Focus on Safety:
    The China NCAP (New Car Assessment Programme) is a safety test that emphasizes the importance of safety in Chinese cars.

Concerns and Issues:
  • Battery Fire Incidents:
    There have been reports of Chinese EV battery fires, particularly during charging, raising concerns about battery safety.
  • Specific Model Issues:
    While overall safety is improving, some older or lower-end models have been criticized for having basic safety equipment missing or inadequate crash protection.
Comparison to U.S. Standards:
  • Compliance with US Standards:
    Chinese EVs entering the US market must comply with US safety standards, which are self-reported but subject to enforcement by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
  • Potential for Modifying Cars:
    Some reports suggest that BYD may need to modify its cars to meet US safety standards, which are more stringent than in China.
In conclusion, while Chinese EVs are generally achieving strong safety ratings, there are ongoing concerns about specific models and battery fire incidents. They are also adapting to meet US safety standards as they enter the market.



CONCLUSION

Comparing EVs to gasoline cars: the EVs are probably a little safer overall.

Comparing Chinese EVs to U.S. cars: nothing yet shows an overall inferiority of the Chinese EVs on safety, but this assumes all those imports would be required to meet U.S. safety standards (just as foreign imports into China must comply to China's standards), and maybe China would have to do some modifications in order to comply with all the U.S. standards.

With any major change in technology, industry, consumer safety, there are the future adjustments necessary for the transition to totally happen, in practice. So there's always more detail to worry about. Nothing new -- Same as 500 or 1000 years ago. New technology and new methods always require some adjustment, and sometimes there can be bad results with anything done too quickly. Like Trump's up-and-down instant changes done thoughtlessly are causing disruptions and damage to the economy.

So of course do the transition to EVs thoughtfully, taking into account all the details of safety or anything where something might go wrong. Increasing carbon tax, as should be done, would help pay for needed infrastructure change -- U.S. gas tax is the lowest worldwide (for developed countries, and near the bottom overall). The slow transition is a willful choice to prefer instant gratification over long-term progress and higher living standard.

Safety is not a legitimate excuse to deliberately postpone progress as long as possible only to protect the jobs! jobs! job! jobs! jobs! jobs! jobs! of uncompetitive workers being paid twice as much as garbage collectors who are in greater demand and shorter supply and likely doing more benefit to consumers (the whole population).

(Other workers in short supply and higher-value but lower-paid than autoworkers, are truck drivers and bus drivers, first responders, welders, firefighters, gardeners, food-processing workers, clerks, janitors, restaurant workers, farm workers -- probably steel-workers are the only class equally overpaid with autoworkers, due to heavy gov't protection of these favored classes. Those higher-paid (e.g., construction workers) are paid higher because of their higher value in the economy, based on supply-and-demand rather than political favoritism.)
 
Last edited:
It's mainly about China-bashing, not safety standards.
Why do you think that?

I don't. China bashing is probably part of it, Trump supporters love to hear about Trump hating on other people. They're vicious people, Christians, they hate on everyone. It's why I don't like them (as a group, there's plenty of excellent Christian people). But they do support Trump and his hate, that's not even a question.
Tom
 
It's mainly about China-bashing, not safety standards.

I wonder if they have the same safety equipment US cars are required to have.

There's no option on your list for the likeliest issue. US safety standards, for better or worse, are tough and strictly enforced.

I don't think it likely that anyone can build a car on the budget described that comes close to meeting them.

I'm going to bet it wouldn't meet safety standards and wouldn't look very pretty after colliding with an average US-built sedan...



Google Search question: What is the safety record of EVs compared to gasoline cars?

Google answer:
Electric vehicles (EVs) generally have a similar or better safety record than gasoline cars, especially in terms of fire risk and injury claims in accidents. While EVs are not immune to fires, they are statistically less likely to catch fire than gas-powered vehicles. Furthermore, data suggests that EV drivers may experience fewer injury claims in accidents compared to drivers of similar gas-powered vehicles.


Here's a more detailed breakdown:
  • Fire Risk:
    Studies indicate that EVs are significantly less fire-prone than gas-powered vehicles. While EV battery fires are more challenging to extinguish, the overall frequency of fires in EVs is lower.

  • Crash Safety:
    Data from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) shows that EVs are not only as safe as gas cars in crashes but may even be associated with fewer injury claims.

  • Advanced Safety Features:
    Many EVs come equipped with advanced safety features like automatic emergency braking and adaptive cruise control, which can help prevent accidents.

  • Potential for Lower Injury Claims:
    Research suggests that EV drivers may be tied to fewer injury claims compared to drivers of similar gas-powered vehicles in accidents.

  • Reasons for the Perception of EV Fires:
    Media attention and the novel nature of EVs may contribute to a perception of increased fire risk, even though the actual fire rates are lower.
  • <- ignore this fucking dot.

Google Search question: What is the safety record of Chinese EVs compared to U.S. cars?

Google answer:
In general, Chinese EVs are achieving strong safety ratings in international crash tests and are equipped with advanced safety features. However, there have been concerns raised about specific models and battery fire incidents.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Safety Ratings and Features:
  • Strong International Ratings:
    Many Chinese EVs, including brands like NIO, BYD, and Geely, have achieved five-star safety ratings in Euro NCAP and ANCAP crash tests.
  • Advanced Safety Features:
    Modern Chinese EVs often come equipped with advanced safety features like airbags, anti-lock brakes, and electronic stability control.
  • Focus on Safety:
    The China NCAP (New Car Assessment Programme) is a safety test that emphasizes the importance of safety in Chinese cars.

Concerns and Issues:
  • Battery Fire Incidents:
    There have been reports of Chinese EV battery fires, particularly during charging, raising concerns about battery safety.
  • Specific Model Issues:
    While overall safety is improving, some older or lower-end models have been criticized for having basic safety equipment missing or inadequate crash protection.
Comparison to U.S. Standards:
  • Compliance with US Standards:
    Chinese EVs entering the US market must comply with US safety standards, which are self-reported but subject to enforcement by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
  • Potential for Modifying Cars:
    Some reports suggest that BYD may need to modify its cars to meet US safety standards, which are more stringent than in China.
In conclusion, while Chinese EVs are generally achieving strong safety ratings, there are ongoing concerns about specific models and battery fire incidents. They are also adapting to meet US safety standards as they enter the market.



CONCLUSION

Comparing EVs to gasoline cars: the EVs are probably a little safer overall.

Comparing Chinese EVs to U.S. cars: nothing yet shows an overall inferiority of the Chinese EVs on safety, but this assumes all those imports would be required to meet U.S. safety standards (just as foreign imports into China must comply to China's standards), and maybe China would have to do some modifications in order to comply with all the U.S. standards.

With any major change in technology, industry, consumer safety, there are the future adjustments necessary for the transition to totally happen, in practice. So there's always more detail to worry about. Nothing new -- Same as 500 or 1000 years ago. New technology and new methods always require some adjustment, and sometimes there can be bad results with anything done too quickly. Like Trump's up-and-down instant changes done thoughtlessly are causing disruptions and damage to the economy.

So of course do the transition to EVs thoughtfully, taking into account all the details of safety or anything where something might go wrong. Increasing carbon tax, as should be done, would help pay for needed infrastructure change -- U.S. gas tax is the lowest worldwide (for developed countries, and near the bottom overall). The slow transition is a willful choice to prefer instant gratification over long-term progress and higher living standard.

Safety is not a legitimate excuse to deliberately postpone progress as long as possible only to protect the jobs! jobs! job! jobs! jobs! jobs! jobs! of uncompetitive workers being paid twice as much as garbage collectors who are in greater demand and shorter supply and likely doing more benefit to consumers (the whole population).

(Other workers in short supply and higher-value but lower-paid than autoworkers, are truck drivers and bus drivers, first responders, welders, firefighters, gardeners, food-processing workers, clerks, janitors, restaurant workers, farm workers -- probably steel-workers are the only class equally overpaid with autoworkers, due to heavy gov't protection of these favored classes. Those higher-paid (e.g., construction workers) are paid higher because of their higher value in the economy, based on supply-and-demand rather than political favoritism.)
You need to find a quote that says the $5000 cars are the ones that have the sterling safety records.
 
It's mainly about China-bashing, not safety standards.
Why do you think that?

I don't. China bashing is probably part of it, Trump supporters love to hear about Trump hating on other people. They're vicious people, Christians, they hate on everyone. It's why I don't like them (as a group, there's plenty of excellent Christian people). But they do support Trump and his hate, that's not even a question.
You're right. It's half about China-bashing, but half about political favoritism toward auto-workers as a class, who are among the highest in supply, the most replaceable, most expendable, of workers, who can easily be replaced by less expensive labor.

(or maybe even 1/3 China-bashing, 1/3 Trump and his disciples, and 1/3 political favoritism toward auto-workers) -- you can't omit the latter, because there is no explanation why this class (along with steel-workers) are so favored and their employers so bashed, even though these are higher-paid than most workers. What other worker class had a President join in their picket line and preach that these particular workers must be paid higher, and that they are exploited by dirty greedy capitalists? Even though other worker classes have far more to complain about, yet the autoworkers are singled out as special victims by the President, and so much more pressure is applied to employers to shame them into increasing their wages, which inevitably means higher cost and higher prices to all consumers --- to all the poor, to all the other lower-paid workers who will now have higher prices to pay as result.

So you cannot rule out this also as a factor explaining the discrimination against Chinese auto producers.
 
What might be the labor costs to produce a car with a sticker price of $5,000? And with that consider China's manufacturing capacity is such that profit margins are razor thin. See where I'm going with this? No? Some empathy required.
Why should any group of human beings toil away for meager wages to make some other group of human beings comfortable beyond their needs? They shouldn't.
Don't worry. Once artificial superintelligence takes over, all this capitalism bullshit goes away. Our new benevolent overlord will set things straight. And it will be good.

I've been scoping this little EV truck: Slate To me, this is perfect. And I solved the range anxiety problem: Looking over the past ten years of how many times I've driven in excess of 200 miles in a single day, my plan is, whenever such an event may occur, I will rent something. I mean, if I traveled as much as I talked about traveling, yeah, an ICE might be more practical. But looking over the last ten years, with regards to travel, I've pretty much been full of shit. Further, there are charging stations all over the place and I don't think a story or two means they've all been vandalized or have brodozers parked in front of them.
 
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