Why Socialism?

[ksen]

There was no evasiveness. I answered your question.

If you need it dumbed down further then the answer is: yes.

OK, so a couple practical questions:

A bunch of pipeline workers decide they want to build an interstate pipeline, where do they get the money to build it?

What money?

How did they decide they wanted to build it in the first place?

I would assume it was decided to build a new interstate pipeline because some analysis was done and the conclusion was that an interstate pipeline was needed.

Let's imagine some new or emerging technology. Say, cell phones in 1985. How do a bunch of cell phone workers get together and build a cell phone plant and cell phone towers when there aren't any cell phone workers yet? . . . How did cell phone workers even get the idea to build cell phones and cell phone towers given, in particular, they don't exist yet?

How did rocket scientists get the idea for rockets given they didn't exist yet?

Probably from the same place all other ideas come from: someone, or some people, sat down, thought about some things and decided to try it.

Where do they get the money to do it?

What money?

 

[untermensche]

They are not idiots that want an economy devoid of planning.

How is there planning without planners?

And if there are anarchist planners, how do they get the job? What happens to the people who don't want to listen to them?

How much planning do you think exists presently for the food and water supply?

Anarchists are not opposed to planning to keep these supplies adequate.

They are not opposed to planning so that all people can have health insurance.

They do not believe in just leaving these things to magic markets.

 

[dismal]

OK, so a couple practical questions:

A bunch of pipeline workers decide they want to build an interstate pipeline, where do they get the money to build it? How did they decide they wanted to build it in the first place?

Let's imagine some new or emerging technology. Say, cell phones in 1985. How do a bunch of cell phone workers get together and build a cell phone plant and cell phone towers when there aren't any cell phone workers yet? Where do they get the money to do it? How did cell phone workers even get the idea to build cell phones and cell phone towers given, in particular, they don't exist yet?

So innovation, resource allocation, and planning are completely absent?

Are you asking me or ksen?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

So innovation, resource allocation, and planning are completely absent?

Are you asking me or ksen?

You figure it out.

 

[dismal]

OK, so a couple practical questions:

A bunch of pipeline workers decide they want to build an interstate pipeline, where do they get the money to build it?

What money?

The money to build it. Oh, wait, did you outlaw money too? In any case I assume even in ksentopia resources are required to build things like pipelines? How are they obtained?

How did they decide they wanted to build it in the first place?

I would assume it was decided to build a new interstate pipeline because some analysis was done and the conclusion was that an interstate pipeline was needed.

"It was decided" is a bizarrely passive tense. Who decided? How?

Let's imagine some new or emerging technology. Say, cell phones in 1985. How do a bunch of cell phone workers get together and build a cell phone plant and cell phone towers when there aren't any cell phone workers yet? . . . How did cell phone workers even get the idea to build cell phones and cell phone towers given, in particular, they don't exist yet?

How did rocket scientists get the idea for rockets given they didn't exist yet?

Probably from the same place all other ideas come from: someone, or some people, sat down, thought about some things and decided to try it.

Who are these people who will sit around and decide "let's build a cell phone factory"? Why will they decide to do it? Where will they get the resources required to build a cellphone factory from?

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Are you asking me or ksen?

You figure it out.

Must be ksen because I don't decide how things work in ksentopia.

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How is there planning without planners?

And if there are anarchist planners, how do they get the job? What happens to the people who don't want to listen to them?

How much planning do you think exists presently for the food and water supply?

Anarchists are not opposed to planning to keep these supplies adequate.

They are not opposed to planning so that all people can have health insurance.

They do not believe in just leaving these things to magic markets.

You do realize "anarchist" means "no government" right?

 

[untermensche]

You do realize "anarchist" means "no government" right?

That's an oversimplification, and Anarchist thinking is incredibly diverse.

But an Anarchist society could include societal ownership and control of resources and lots of planning.

 

[Axulus]

Those who work in a certain sector also own the means of production in that sector.

So in highly capital intensive industries, such as microprocessor manufacture, steel production, aluminum production, oil extraction, etc. the few workers in relation to the amount of capital get to own all those means of production? And those sorry saps who work in careers that require little capital, such as academia, authors, journalists, barbers, massage parlors, bookkeeping, among many others, are just SOL, those suckers should've worked in the oil patches?

 

[Axulus]

How did rocket scientists get the idea for rockets given they didn't exist yet?

Probably from the same place all other ideas come from: someone, or some people, sat down, thought about some things and decided to try it.

Why would anyone do that when they can work in the oil patch and instantly be a millionaire via their ownership of their share of the means of production?

 

[Axulus]

Do all the workers who work in real estate get to own a percent of all the real estate in the entire country?

What if a piece of capital is shared among two or more sectors or industries? Who gets to control what?

 

[ksen]

What money?

The money to build it. Oh, wait, did you outlaw money too?

Money doesn't have to be outlawed to become obsolete.

In any case I assume even in ksentopia resources are required to build things like pipelines?

Yes.

How are they obtained?

You go get them.

How did they decide they wanted to build it in the first place?

I would assume it was decided to build a new interstate pipeline because some analysis was done and the conclusion was that an interstate pipeline was needed.

"It was decided" is a bizarrely passive tense. Who decided?

The committe in charge of analysing infrastructure needs I suppose.

How?

Maths and stuff.

Let's imagine some new or emerging technology. Say, cell phones in 1985. How do a bunch of cell phone workers get together and build a cell phone plant and cell phone towers when there aren't any cell phone workers yet? . . . How did cell phone workers even get the idea to build cell phones and cell phone towers given, in particular, they don't exist yet?

How did rocket scientists get the idea for rockets given they didn't exist yet?

Probably from the same place all other ideas come from: someone, or some people, sat down, thought about some things and decided to try it.

Who are these people who will sit around and decide "let's build a cell phone factory"?

Kate, Bill, Megan and Fred.

Why will they decide to do it?

Becuase it will be useful to society.

Where will they get the resources required to build a cellphone factory from?

Same place they get them from now but without capitalists involved.

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Those who work in a certain sector also own the means of production in that sector.

So in highly capital intensive industries, such as microprocessor manufacture, steel production, aluminum production, oil extraction, etc. the few workers in relation to the amount of capital get to own all those means of production? And those sorry saps who work in careers that require little capital, such as academia, authors, journalists, barbers, massage parlors, bookkeeping, among many others, are just SOL, those suckers should've worked in the oil patches?

Why would that be a problem?

Unless you're stuck in the mindset that things are still being done to obtain profit.

 

[Axulus]

Same place they get them from now but without capitalists involved.

They get it from banks and investors now. How do you get it from investors without investors involved?

 

[untermensche]

Do all the workers who work in real estate get to own a percent of all the real estate in the entire country?

Do the makers of hockey pucks get a penny every time one scores a goal?

A house is a product.

When it is built it is sold as any other product.

The workers in real estate are providing a service and being paid for that service.

Distinctions between products and services don't magically disappear.

 

[Axulus]

Why would that be a problem?

Unless you're stuck in the mindset that things are still being done to obtain profit.

Because you are pretty much saying that people who work in industries that require more capital somehow deserve more money (because the more capital you have, the more money you can make), while those who do not deserve less.

That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[ksen]

How did rocket scientists get the idea for rockets given they didn't exist yet?

Probably from the same place all other ideas come from: someone, or some people, sat down, thought about some things and decided to try it.

Why would anyone do that when they can work in the oil patch and instantly be a millionaire via their ownership of their share of the means of production?

That you think there would be millionaires in the type of society I'm discussing with dismal shows that you should probably step back and reread the posts.

In a post-money, post-scarcity socialist society there would be no such thing as "millionaires".

 

[Axulus]

Do all the workers who work in real estate get to own a percent of all the real estate in the entire country?

Do the makers of hockey pucks get a penny every time one scores a goal?

A house is a product.

When it is built it is sold as any other product.

The workers in real estate are providing a service and being paid for that service.

Distinctions between products and services don't magically disappear.

Got it, so they get screwed because they don't get to own much capital in that industry.

You'll see a flight of workers from industries requiring little capital into industries requiring a lot of capital.

 

[ksen]

Same place they get them from now but without capitalists involved.

They get it from banks and investors now. How do you get it from investors without investors involved?

People go to banks for bricks, mortar and machinery?

 

[untermensche]

Do the makers of hockey pucks get a penny every time one scores a goal?

A house is a product.

When it is built it is sold as any other product.

The workers in real estate are providing a service and being paid for that service.

Distinctions between products and services don't magically disappear.

Got it, so they get screwed because they don't get to own much capital in that industry.

How is getting paid for service getting screwed?

 

[Axulus]

Why would anyone do that when they can work in the oil patch and instantly be a millionaire via their ownership of their share of the means of production?

That you think there would be millionaires in the type of society I'm discussing with dismal shows that you should probably step back and reread the posts.

In a post-money, post-scarcity socialist society there would be no such thing as "millionaires".

They get to control the means of production, so why wouldn't they? Are you talking about some genetically engineered society where the desire to become rich is absent?

 

[ksen]

Why would that be a problem?

Unless you're stuck in the mindset that things are still being done to obtain profit.

Because you are pretty much saying that people who work in industries that require more capital somehow deserve more money (because the more capital you have, the more money you can make), while those who do not deserve less.

That makes absolutely no sense.

What money?

 

[Axulus]

Got it, so they get screwed because they don't get to own much capital in that industry.

How is getting paid for service getting screwed?

Because you can make far more money with a similar amount of effort the more means of production you control. The real estate agent gets screwed - there is no means of production to control, and no ability to invest extra earnings to build up a retirement fund or just to increase one's standard of living in your society since there will be nothing one can invest in (all investments belong to the workers in that industry).