Women Aren't Leaders

[Gun Nut]

Draw a picture of a leader

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/16/health/women-leadership-workplace.html

In terms of gender, the results are almost always the same. Both men and women almost always draw men

Is this a problem with historical stereotypes dictating present day perception, or an innate human desire for there to be clear gender roles in society?

 

[fromderinside]

 Golda Meir,  Angela Merkel,  Indira Gandhi .... how innate is that.

It's more habit than anything else donchano?

 

[ruby sparks]

Draw a picture of a leader

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/16/health/women-leadership-workplace.html

In terms of gender, the results are almost always the same. Both men and women almost always draw men

Is this a problem with historical stereotypes dictating present day perception, or an innate human desire for there to be clear gender roles in society?

Possibly a bit of both. I'd feel slightly less sure about the second one. There's probably other candidate explanations too. We might include that men tend to want to be leaders more. That might even be a biggie. My guess would be that that's why it mostly tended to pan out that way, long before the word 'stereotypes' or the term 'gender roles' were first invented.

What does a leader do? A leader gets to be in charge, a leader has to fight their way up the pecking order and defend that position. They get to form gangs, give orders and be powerful. They also get to start wars. They get to shag a lot more people of the opposite sex. Men generally love all that kinda shit more than women, on the whole. And back in the day, being bigger and having more muscles was a very useful additional asset.

I really don't know the answer, but I bet it's fairly complicated.

 

[skepticalbip]

I think that probably gender roles evolved in the human species quite likely due in good part to the long period of dependence of a tot on the mother... the father doesn't give milk. The males became the defenders and providers for the family and even the tribe and the females saw to the home and family. Even today, women rule the home in all the families I know and even the macho husbands bend to their power in domestic matters.

 

[fromderinside]

So we're setting up to blame gender current bias on our recently acquired genetic ability to digest milk from sources other than mom?

Just like a man.

 

[Gun Nut]

 Golda Meir,  Angela Merkel,  Indira Gandhi .... how innate is that.

It's more habit than anything else donchano?

I don't know... that was the crux of my question... is it just habit?

 

[Gun Nut]

Draw a picture of a leader

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/16/health/women-leadership-workplace.html

In terms of gender, the results are almost always the same. Both men and women almost always draw men

Is this a problem with historical stereotypes dictating present day perception, or an innate human desire for there to be clear gender roles in society?

Possibly a bit of both. I'd feel slightly less sure about the second one. There's probably other candidate explanations too. We might include that men tend to want to be leaders more. That might even be a biggie. My guess would be that that's why it mostly tended to pan out that way, long before the word 'stereotypes' or the term 'gender roles' were first invented.

What does a leader do? A leader gets to be in charge, a leader has to fight their way up the pecking order and defend that position. They get to form gangs, give orders and be powerful. They also get to start wars. They get to shag a lot more people of the opposite sex. Men generally love all that kinda shit more than women, on the whole. And back in the day, being bigger and having more muscles was a very useful additional asset.

I really don't know the answer, but I bet it's fairly complicated.

ya, me too. I used to say that one had to be a psychopath to climb the corporate ladder... because the ladder is made out of people. There are more male psychopaths than female (using serial killer stats as a measure).

 

[Gun Nut]

I think that probably gender roles evolved in the human species quite likely due in good part to the long period of dependence of a tot on the mother... the father doesn't give milk. The males became the defenders and providers for the family and even the tribe and the females saw to the home and family. Even today, women rule the home in all the families I know and even the macho husbands bend to their power in domestic matters.

a common dynamic... but then why wouldn't women earn that presumption of leadership.. the context of "household leadership" is not in the foreground? This study was done with children (although originally inspired by corporate team building psychologists that noticed this trend)... and children know nothing of the world outside their house.. .something at home is making mom not look much like a leader, and I am thinking maybe it's mom.

 

[Gun Nut]

So we're setting up to blame gender current bias on our recently acquired genetic ability to digest milk from sources other than mom?

Just like a man.

The day the last man who has some vague interest in human female breasts dies is the day I will believe what you just wrote. The symbolic value of the tit lives on in the deepest wrinkles of our scrotum.. I promise you... for a very long time to come at that.

 

[skepticalbip]

I think that probably gender roles evolved in the human species quite likely due in good part to the long period of dependence of a tot on the mother... the father doesn't give milk. The males became the defenders and providers for the family and even the tribe and the females saw to the home and family. Even today, women rule the home in all the families I know and even the macho husbands bend to their power in domestic matters.

a common dynamic... but then why wouldn't women earn that presumption of leadership.. the context of "household leadership" is not in the foreground? This study was done with children (although originally inspired by corporate team building psychologists that noticed this trend)... and children know nothing of the world outside their house.. .something at home is making mom not look much like a leader, and I am thinking maybe it's mom.

Maybe it is in the understanding of the word "leadership". In my family get togethers of aunts, uncles, cousins, grand parents, the uncontested "leader" of the gathering was my aunt Eloise (who had replaced one of my grandmothers after the grandmother got too feeble). I think that the "leader" of everyone's family gatherings will generally be a female matriarch. OTOH, when people think of a "leader" they generally mean the head of a group of unrelated people.

 

[thebeave]

I think that probably gender roles evolved in the human species quite likely due in good part to the long period of dependence of a tot on the mother... the father doesn't give milk. The males became the defenders and providers for the family and even the tribe and the females saw to the home and family. Even today, women rule the home in all the families I know and even the macho husbands bend to their power in domestic matters.

You got that right. My friend recently got married and his new wife moved in to his house and made him take down his 7' poster of Chewbacca hanging in the living room. His own fucking house that he paid for! That's one reason why I crack up when people say a man would never vote for a woman for POTUS because they can't handle a woman being in charge!

 

[skepticalbip]

I think that probably gender roles evolved in the human species quite likely due in good part to the long period of dependence of a tot on the mother... the father doesn't give milk. The males became the defenders and providers for the family and even the tribe and the females saw to the home and family. Even today, women rule the home in all the families I know and even the macho husbands bend to their power in domestic matters.

a common dynamic... but then why wouldn't women earn that presumption of leadership.. the context of "household leadership" is not in the foreground? This study was done with children (although originally inspired by corporate team building psychologists that noticed this trend)... and children know nothing of the world outside their house.. .something at home is making mom not look much like a leader, and I am thinking maybe it's mom.

I had a thought about this bit. Maybe it is in the question the children are being asked. Would the 'researchers' come to a different conclusion if instead they asked the children which parent told them when to go to bed, made them bathe and brush their teeth, decided what they would have for dinner, what clothes they would wear, who they could play with and when, how much and which TV programs they could watch, etc.? Maybe the children just don't understand that the person making such decisions is their 'leader' and not the parent they consider to be stronger.

 

[fromderinside]

So we're setting up to blame gender current bias on our recently acquired genetic ability to digest milk from sources other than mom?

Just like a man.

The day the last man who has some vague interest in human female breasts dies is the day I will believe what you just wrote. The symbolic value of the tit lives on in the deepest wrinkles of our scrotum.. I promise you... for a very long time to come at that.

Yet Pitt remained with Jolie years after her double mastectomy, Tig is a comedic hit and gender identity is moving far from previous physical stereotypes.

 

[Gun Nut]

I think that probably gender roles evolved in the human species quite likely due in good part to the long period of dependence of a tot on the mother... the father doesn't give milk. The males became the defenders and providers for the family and even the tribe and the females saw to the home and family. Even today, women rule the home in all the families I know and even the macho husbands bend to their power in domestic matters.

a common dynamic... but then why wouldn't women earn that presumption of leadership.. the context of "household leadership" is not in the foreground? This study was done with children (although originally inspired by corporate team building psychologists that noticed this trend)... and children know nothing of the world outside their house.. .something at home is making mom not look much like a leader, and I am thinking maybe it's mom.

Maybe it is in the understanding of the word "leadership". In my family get togethers of aunts, uncles, cousins, grand parents, the uncontested "leader" of the gathering was my aunt Eloise (who had replaced one of my grandmothers after the grandmother got too feeble). I think that the "leader" of everyone's family gatherings will generally be a female matriarch. OTOH, when people think of a "leader" they generally mean the head of a group of unrelated people.

This is a good point.. one's own biases as to what the word leader means. I can see how a leader in government versus a leader in the home would be viewed totally differently.

My in-laws have an interesting dynamic where there is a matriarch except when there is one particular uncle that sort of takes over social family gatherings. It's like there is an Operational leader - a woman, and a social leader - a man.

 

[Gun Nut]

I think that probably gender roles evolved in the human species quite likely due in good part to the long period of dependence of a tot on the mother... the father doesn't give milk. The males became the defenders and providers for the family and even the tribe and the females saw to the home and family. Even today, women rule the home in all the families I know and even the macho husbands bend to their power in domestic matters.

a common dynamic... but then why wouldn't women earn that presumption of leadership.. the context of "household leadership" is not in the foreground? This study was done with children (although originally inspired by corporate team building psychologists that noticed this trend)... and children know nothing of the world outside their house.. .something at home is making mom not look much like a leader, and I am thinking maybe it's mom.

I had a thought about this bit. Maybe it is in the question the children are being asked. Would the 'researchers' come to a different conclusion if instead they asked the children which parent told them when to go to bed, made them bathe and brush their teeth, decided what they would have for dinner, what clothes they would wear, who they could play with and when, how much and which TV programs they could watch, etc.? Maybe the children just don't understand that the person making such decisions is their 'leader' and not the parent they consider to be stronger.

Ya, this could be.. similar to the notion of what being a leader is versus what "being in charge" is. The person you have to listen to maybe isn't thought of as a leader. I have heard a stereotype thing about how the mother would say things like, "you better do this before your father gets home"... or "you're going to get it when your father gets home" - Like mom was just the second in command, being an enforcer, but not the one making the rules or dealing out punishments.

 

[Gun Nut]

So we're setting up to blame gender current bias on our recently acquired genetic ability to digest milk from sources other than mom?

Just like a man.

The day the last man who has some vague interest in human female breasts dies is the day I will believe what you just wrote. The symbolic value of the tit lives on in the deepest wrinkles of our scrotum.. I promise you... for a very long time to come at that.

Yet Pitt remained with Jolie years after her double mastectomy, Tig is a comedic hit and gender identity is moving far from previous physical stereotypes.

Good point. no one ever thought of this... I concede that you have proven that breasts, while alluring and very important to many types of people, aren't now nor ever have been the sole point of interest of all hetero men, with all other attributes of humanity not contributing one iota... who woulda thunkit

 

[Bronzeage]

So we're setting up to blame gender current bias on our recently acquired genetic ability to digest milk from sources other than mom?

Just like a man.

The day the last man who has some vague interest in human female breasts dies is the day I will believe what you just wrote. The symbolic value of the tit lives on in the deepest wrinkles of our scrotum.. I promise you... for a very long time to come at that.

Thinking with your scrotum is not a good survival strategy.

 

[rousseau]

Possibly a bit of both. I'd feel slightly less sure about the second one. There's probably other candidate explanations too. We might include that men tend to want to be leaders more. That might even be a biggie. My guess would be that that's why it mostly tended to pan out that way, long before the word 'stereotypes' or the term 'gender roles' were first invented.

What does a leader do? A leader gets to be in charge, a leader has to fight their way up the pecking order and defend that position. They get to form gangs, give orders and be powerful. They also get to start wars. They get to shag a lot more people of the opposite sex. Men generally love all that kinda shit more than women, on the whole. And back in the day, being bigger and having more muscles was a very useful additional asset.

I really don't know the answer, but I bet it's fairly complicated.

ya, me too. I used to say that one had to be a psychopath to climb the corporate ladder... because the ladder is made out of people. There are more male psychopaths than female (using serial killer stats as a measure).

I think this might get at the crux of it. People want to be led by someone who is ruthless, and who will gain more for the tribe at any expense. That's not the quality I see in many female leaders. Good female leaders tend to be more co-operative, warm, and moderating than their male counterparts. Which ironically makes them far better leaders than men in the modern workforce, but people are still dumb so still drawn to over-confident men. In a hunting-gathering society you want the ruthless guy, in an interconnected world you want the holistic, social person.

Purely anecdotal, but I currently have women for all three levels above me, and it's way, way better working for them than for any other manager in my career.

 

[OLDMAN]

It is strange but I think women have a harder time with women leaders idea than men do. Also, women hold grudges a lot longer, over trivial things. I've seen guys in fist fights and two days later all is forgiven. Meanwhile women can hold hatred for tens years because one didn't say hello one morning.

 

[Rhea]

It is strange but I think women have a harder time with women leaders idea than men do.

A lot of women don't think that. So you may be making an error in your conclusion. Maybe men think that women think that?

Also, women hold grudges a lot longer, over trivial things. I've seen guys in fist fights and two days later all is forgiven. Meanwhile women can hold hatred for tens years because one didn't say hello one morning.

(Just like Trump, right? he forgives as soo.... nm)

I don't agree this, I don't think the evidence supports this as a gendered trend.