Women-only ‘full nudity’ spa’s ‘no male genitals’ rule ignites transgender debate in Toronto

[repoman]

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate


Well, this is the end of the line as far as the fears of a slippery slope being real or baseless when people went crazy over transgenders in restrooms. My opinion about that was who cares and no laws are better than any laws.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

 

[DBT]

I'd say a range of options; female only for those who prefer it, male only for whomever wants that, and male and female nude spas to cater to those who prefer co mingling.

 

[repoman]

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

Neither. Private business with the right to impose its own policies. If you want to use their services, follow their fucking rules.

 

[whichphilosophy]

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate


Well, this is the end of the line as far as the fears of a slippery slope being real or baseless when people went crazy over transgenders in restrooms. My opinion about that was who cares and no laws are better than any laws.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

Someone can always start a transgender spa. However mixed spas would be a better option. It's pointless to push something onto women who prefer women only spas, just like men only spas.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate


Well, this is the end of the line as far as the fears of a slippery slope being real or baseless when people went crazy over transgenders in restrooms. My opinion about that was who cares and no laws are better than any laws.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

Someone can always start a transgender spa. However mixed spas would be a better option. It's pointless to push something onto women who prefer women only spas, just like men only spas.

I'm like 99% sure that all-nude mixed-gender spas are already a thing, just really hard to find and highly frowned upon because of puritanical laws in place.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Someone can always start a transgender spa. However mixed spas would be a better option. It's pointless to push something onto women who prefer women only spas, just like men only spas.

I'm like 99% sure that all-nude mixed-gender spas are already a thing, just really hard to find and highly frowned upon because of puritanical laws in place.

I'm not sure about the US laws in different states but I recall there were some in London.

 

[J842P]

 

[LordKiran]

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

Neither. Private business with the right to impose its own policies. If you want to use their services, follow their fucking rules.

This is fine if we don't pre-suppose that trans-women are women.

 

[DrZoidberg]

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate


Well, this is the end of the line as far as the fears of a slippery slope being real or baseless when people went crazy over transgenders in restrooms. My opinion about that was who cares and no laws are better than any laws.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

I think both options are ok. Ie to include transexuals or to ban them. Fundamentally it comes down to what place the owners want the spa to be. Either it's a place for identified women or it's a place for women without penises.

I think it's great that there exists women's spas that admit transexuals. But I can't think of a reason why it should be compulsory.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Someone can always start a transgender spa. However mixed spas would be a better option. It's pointless to push something onto women who prefer women only spas, just like men only spas.

I'm like 99% sure that all-nude mixed-gender spas are already a thing, just really hard to find and highly frowned upon because of puritanical laws in place.

Yes. There is one in downtown Toronto. It has been there for a decade or more.

Why is there no hubbub over women only gyms?

 

[LordKiran]

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate


Well, this is the end of the line as far as the fears of a slippery slope being real or baseless when people went crazy over transgenders in restrooms. My opinion about that was who cares and no laws are better than any laws.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

I think both options are ok. Ie to include transexuals or to ban them. Fundamentally it comes down to what place the owners want the spa to be. Either it's a place for identified women or it's a place for women without penises.

I think it's great that there exists women's spas that admit transexuals. But I can't think of a reason why it should be compulsory.

Because of the precedent it sets. Now what you may think of this idea notwithstanding, the entire idea of being trans is to not necessarily be considered 'trans'. The ultimate end goal of most transsexuals is to be considered just another man/woman. So when a spa decides to restrict admittance of trans-women, it establishes the idea that there is a fundamental difference, that trans-women are not 'women' but instead are this other thing that doesn't belong with 'real women.'

 

[LordKiran]

I'm like 99% sure that all-nude mixed-gender spas are already a thing, just really hard to find and highly frowned upon because of puritanical laws in place.

Yes. There is one in downtown Toronto. It has been there for a decade or more.

Why is there no hubbub over women only gyms?

Because there's not really any way to exclude trans persons from gender-specific gyms. "You think I'm trans and thus don't belong? Prove it."

Frankly I think dividing gyms/public baths by sex is less practical than by where you sit on the masculine/feminine dichotomy. even though I am a man, I would probably feel more at ease in a woman's gym if I had to pick between than and a man's gym.

 

[thebeave]

So, how do you distinguish between an actual pre-surgery trans, and a pervy man who's pretending to be trans just so he can get in the spa and ogle some hot naked chicks?

If you're a woman, does it make any difference to you whether the person across from you in the hot tub with male genetalia is a bona fide trans, or is a pervy "pretend trans"?

Maybe that's all this spa is doing, trying to weed out the phonies.

 

[LordKiran]

So, how do you distinguish between an actual pre-surgery trans, and a pervy man who's pretending to be trans just so he can get in the spa and ogle some hot naked chicks?[1]

If you're a woman, does it make any difference to you whether the person across from you in the hot tub with male genetalia is a bona fide trans, or is a pervy "pretend trans"? [2]

Maybe that's all this spa is doing, trying to weed out the phonies.[3]

1. Easy, the real trans person will have their target gender reflected on their identification. No mere perv will go through all that trouble and hormone therapy or sexual reassignment surgery just to see something he can just as easily see at a strip club.

2. Kind of a moot point due to the above, isn't it?

3. Maybe, or maybe some people just aren't comfortable with sharing their space with a transsexual.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Given the full nudity of the situation I can see the spa's side on this. The usual transgender situation doesn't involve putting the genitals on display, this does.

 

[J842P]

So, how do you distinguish between an actual pre-surgery trans, and a pervy man who's pretending to be trans just so he can get in the spa and ogle some hot naked chicks?[1]

If you're a woman, does it make any difference to you whether the person across from you in the hot tub with male genetalia is a bona fide trans, or is a pervy "pretend trans"? [2]

Maybe that's all this spa is doing, trying to weed out the phonies.[3]

1. Easy, the real trans person will have their target gender reflected on their identification. No mere perv will go through all that trouble and hormone therapy or sexual reassignment surgery just to see something he can just as easily see at a strip club.

2. Kind of a moot point due to the above, isn't it?

3. Maybe, or maybe some people just aren't comfortable with sharing their space with a transsexual.

Is it required to go through hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery to be trans? I don't think so.

But basically, I think there are women who don't want to share that sort of space with males.

 

[repoman]

1. Easy, the real trans person will have their target gender reflected on their identification. No mere perv will go through all that trouble and hormone therapy or sexual reassignment surgery just to see something he can just as easily see at a strip club.

2. Kind of a moot point due to the above, isn't it?

3. Maybe, or maybe some people just aren't comfortable with sharing their space with a transsexual.

Is it required to go through hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery to be trans? I don't think so.

But basically, I think there are women who don't want to share that sort of space with males.

I think they should be allowed to not share that space if there is full nudity.

Man/Woman is the mental head space and Male/Female is the genital bits? This is ignoring medical rarities.

 

[J842P]

Is it required to go through hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery to be trans? I don't think so.

But basically, I think there are women who don't want to share that sort of space with males.

Man/Woman is the mental head space and Male/Female is the genital bits? This is ignoring medical rarities.

Yes. The corresponding non-binary terms are transgender and transsexual.

 

[PyramidHead]

Man/Woman is the mental head space and Male/Female is the genital bits? This is ignoring medical rarities.

Yes. The corresponding non-binary terms are transgender and transsexual.

I thought the same thing, but I was told that it's not that simple, and that most transgender people are actively on their way to becoming transsexual. That is, transgender isn't just about feeling uncomfortable with societal gender roles, it must include an element of distress at one's physical sexual characteristics and a strong desire to have different sexual characteristics. Otherwise it's just 'not fitting in', which doesn't require any special treatment.