Women-only ‘full nudity’ spa’s ‘no male genitals’ rule ignites transgender debate in Toronto

[J842P]

Yes. The corresponding non-binary terms are transgender and transsexual.

I thought the same thing, but I was told that it's not that simple, and that most transgender people are actively on their way to becoming transsexual. That is, transgender isn't just about feeling uncomfortable with societal gender roles, it must include an element of distress at one's physical sexual characteristics and a strong desire to have different sexual characteristics. Otherwise it's just 'not fitting in', which doesn't require any special treatment.

You`re right, the word I was looking for is *intersex*, which describes someone born with ambiguous genitalia.

 

[Derec]

I thought the same thing, but I was told that it's not that simple, and that most transgender people are actively on their way to becoming transsexual. That is, transgender isn't just about feeling uncomfortable with societal gender roles, it must include an element of distress at one's physical sexual characteristics and a strong desire to have different sexual characteristics. Otherwise it's just 'not fitting in', which doesn't require any special treatment.

But then again you have people who claim to be trans, but are pretty much just men in a dress or girls dressing like tomboys. Two examples:
The guy (Justin Kramer) Milo Y. made fun of at UW:

And the other Milo (real name Natalie Stewart) is a girl who dresses like a Tucker Carlson:

When I think of trans people, I think of this

or this

And I find it quite ironic the first would be admitted to that 'women only' sauna but the second would not.

The only way to disentangle us from this whole non-binary mess is to make saunas all-inclusive like they do in Europe.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'd say a range of options; female only for those who prefer it, male only for whomever wants that, and male and female nude spas to cater to those who prefer co mingling.

Sorry, that kind of simple problem solving is a mortal sin to right wing authoritarian followers.

 

[Derec]

Sorry, that kind of simple problem solving

Sorry, but it ceases to be simple once you start having like 56 different genders (more than flavors at Baskin Robins!) to choose from. That was the whole point of the OP. How female is female enough?

is a mortal sin to right wing authoritarian followers.

Sorry, but it was left-wing authoritarian groups like "National Council of Women's Organizations" who pressured male-only golf club Augusta National to admit women as members. Why are is gender exclusivity ok for women but "sexism", "misogyny" or "patriarchy" for men? After all, there are still women-only golf clubs.
Freedom of association should apply to everybody equally.

 

[Angry Floof]

Sorry, you and your fellow right wing authoritarian followers spend way too much time thinking about other people's genitals.

 

[Trausti]

Sorry, you and your fellow right wing authoritarian followers spend way too much time thinking about other people's genitals.

Right wing, left wing, I dunno. But it's certainly the left, or at least the illiberal far left, that has pushed the biology denying "gender is a social construct" nonsense.

 

[laughing dog]

After all, there are still women-only golf clubs.

According to this article there is only one in all of North America (http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/ladies-golf-club-toronto-has-timeless-augusta-feel-looser-vibe-and-roles-reversed) while there are four men only golf clubs in Chicago (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-all-male-golf-clubs-not-bad-greenstein-20160519-column.html)

Freedom of association should apply to everybody equally.

So, when are you going to campaign to open all golf clubs to all genders?

 

[Derec]

Sorry, you and your fellow right wing authoritarian followers spend way too much time thinking about other people's genitals.

Huh? First of all, it is the owners of this spa who worry a lot about genitals. I have explicitly stated that fully co-ed saunas would be fine. And of course if the owners want to restrict genders, that's fine too (freedom of association), but then you get into complications regarding the 56 newfangled genders in addition to regular 2.
And secondly, I am not, nor have I ever been a "right wing authoritarian".

 

[Derec]

According to this article there is only one in all of North America

Is there? The point is feminists like Martha Burke weren't protesting it. They are protesting spaces that are male only, while welcoming and encouraging female-only spaces. That is hypocrisy.

Freedom of association should apply to everybody equally.

So, when are you going to campaign to open all golf clubs to all genders?

I said freedom of association should apply to all genders. Most gold clubs are already open to both men and women. But if somebody wants to open a gender-exclusive one, they should be able to do so, even if they want to open membership solely to "Trans* Persons" -with an asterisk, which is one of Facebook gender flavors.

 

[laughing dog]

Is there?

Unless you have any actual evidence to the contrary, it appears in North America the ratio of men only golf clubs to women only is at least 4 to 1.

The point is feminists like Martha Burke weren't protesting it.

Did she know about it?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Sorry, you and your fellow right wing authoritarian followers spend way too much time thinking about other people's genitals.

How funny, I don't normally consider transgender social justice warriors as right wing.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sorry, you and your fellow right wing authoritarian followers spend way too much time thinking about other people's genitals.

How funny, I don't normally consider transgender social justice warriors as right wing.

The authoritarian left SJW types sometimes to so far that they come around the other side and look identical to right wing authoritarians.

 

[fast]

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate


Well, this is the end of the line as far as the fears of a slippery slope being real or baseless when people went crazy over transgenders in restrooms. My opinion about that was who cares and no laws are better than any laws.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

People have preferences. Regardless of why they do or what drove them to, they do. Many seek out places that cater to what they prefer. If others are unwelcome and excluded in the process, they can establish their own refuge, or they can set out to ruin it for those that do not welcome them. It's pretty clear the direction we're going on many issues: Articulated positively by many; tolerated until profoundly disgusted by others.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

How funny, I don't normally consider transgender social justice warriors as right wing.

The authoritarian left SJW types sometimes to so far that they come around the other side and look identical to right wing authoritarians.

I don't think that's what Floof meant.

 

[repoman]

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/women-only-full-nudity-spas-no-male-genitals-rule-ignites-transgender-debate


Well, this is the end of the line as far as the fears of a slippery slope being real or baseless when people went crazy over transgenders in restrooms. My opinion about that was who cares and no laws are better than any laws.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Should this spa be shut down or applauded?

People have preferences. Regardless of why they do or what drove them to, they do. Many seek out places that cater to what they prefer. If others are unwelcome and excluded in the process, they can establish their own refuge, or they can set out to ruin it for those that do not welcome them. It's pretty clear the direction we're going on many issues: Articulated positively by many; tolerated until profoundly disgusted by others.

Conservatives and libertarians are wrong about a lot of issues, but one of the issues I think that they are often (not always) right about is "negative rights".

 

[Angry Floof]

How funny, I don't normally consider transgender social justice warriors as right wing.

The authoritarian left SJW types sometimes to so far that they come around the other side and look identical to right wing authoritarians.

There is such a thing as a right wing authoritarian found among liberals, but they are rare.

Right wing authoritarian traits are: obedience to an authority, not questioning the authority, conformity to authority's views and rules, willingness to go along with whatever punishments the authority deems necessary for outgroups who do not follow those rules, adherence to tradition, and mistrust of other ideological and cultural groups.

The traits are NOT: saying stuff you don't like, asserting values and opinions in opposition to yours, willingness to stick up for the vulnerable, minorities, marginalized groups, or calling out inhumane, ignorant world views loudly and obnoxiously. Even striving to impose rules that protect people from the mongrel behaviors of ignorant idiots, con men, bigots, and bullies, no matter how strident the rules, they are not right wing authoritarian followers. They could be wrong about a great many things and behave badly and still they are not right wing authoritarian followers.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes. The corresponding non-binary terms are transgender and transsexual.

I thought the same thing, but I was told that it's not that simple, and that most transgender people are actively on their way to becoming transsexual. That is, transgender isn't just about feeling uncomfortable with societal gender roles, it must include an element of distress at one's physical sexual characteristics and a strong desire to have different sexual characteristics. Otherwise it's just 'not fitting in', which doesn't require any special treatment.

Who gives a fuck? Transexuals are just as free to self-identify as everybody else is to identify him or her as they please. If some women chose to identify all persons with penises as men, they've got to be free to do so.

While I sympathise for the plight of transexuals. I think in this case they don't have one.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Right wing authoritarian traits are: obedience to an authority, not questioning the authority, conformity to authority's views and rules, willingness to go along with whatever punishments the authority deems necessary for outgroups who do not follow those rules, adherence to tradition, and mistrust of other ideological and cultural groups.

That fits many SJW types perfectly except for the adherence to tradition. I would add groupthink and lack of introspection and independent thought for both groups. And for the SJWs (LWAs?) I would further add virtue signaling. Fits the campus crusaders perfectly then.

 

[PyramidHead]

I thought the same thing, but I was told that it's not that simple, and that most transgender people are actively on their way to becoming transsexual. That is, transgender isn't just about feeling uncomfortable with societal gender roles, it must include an element of distress at one's physical sexual characteristics and a strong desire to have different sexual characteristics. Otherwise it's just 'not fitting in', which doesn't require any special treatment.

Who gives a fuck? Transexuals are just as free to self-identify as everybody else is to identify him or her as they please. If some women chose to identify all persons with penises as men, they've got to be free to do so.

While I sympathise for the plight of transexuals. I think in this case they don't have one.

In your opinion, how does the plight of trans people differ from the plight of gays generally, or from that of other minorities who until recently were restricted from accessing the same services as everyone else?

 

[ronburgundy]

I think both options are ok. Ie to include transexuals or to ban them. Fundamentally it comes down to what place the owners want the spa to be. Either it's a place for identified women or it's a place for women without penises.

I think it's great that there exists women's spas that admit transexuals. But I can't think of a reason why it should be compulsory.

Because of the precedent it sets. Now what you may think of this idea notwithstanding, the entire idea of being trans is to not necessarily be considered 'trans'. The ultimate end goal of most transsexuals is to be considered just another man/woman. So when a spa decides to restrict admittance of trans-women, it establishes the idea that there is a fundamental difference, that trans-women are not 'women' but instead are this other thing that doesn't belong with 'real women.'

If they still have a penis, then in a very objective physical sense they are an "other thing" from women without penises. So, unless we are going to make it illegal for people to recognize objective scientific reality, then there should be no legal compulsion for everyone else to to have along with a delusion every trans-woman is just like every other woman.