Would enlightenment have happened in Europe without Islam?

[DBT]

Some claim that the Renaissance would not have happened without the Golden Age of Islam as a beacon of science and learning.

Thoughts?

 

[untermensche]

The Islamic Golden Age was a period of cultural, economic and scientific flourishing in the history of Islam, traditionally dated from the 8th century to the 14th century.

The Islamic Empire heavily patronized scholars. The money spent on the Translation Movement for some translations is estimated to be equivalent to about twice the annual research budget of the United Kingdom’s Medical Research Council.[16] The best scholars and notable translators, such as Hunayn ibn Ishaq, had salaries that are estimated to be the equivalent of professional athletes today.[16] The House of Wisdom was a library established in Abbasid-era Baghdad, Iraq by Caliph al-Mansur.[17]

During this period, the Muslims showed a strong interest in assimilating the scientific knowledge of the civilizations that had been conquered. Many classic works of antiquity that might otherwise have been lost were translated from Greek, Persian, Indian, Chinese, Egyptian, and Phoenician civilizations into Arabic and Persian, and later in turn translated into Turkish, Hebrew, and Latin.[5]

With a new and easier writing system, and the introduction of paper, information was democratized to the extent that, for probably the first time in history, it became possible to make a living from only writing and selling books.[45] The use of paper spread from China into Muslim regions in the eighth century, arriving in Al-Andalus on the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal) in the 10th century. It was easier to manufacture than parchment, less likely to crack than papyrus, and could absorb ink, making it difficult to erase and ideal for keeping records. Islamic paper makers devised assembly-line methods of hand-copying manuscripts to turn out editions far larger than any available in Europe for centuries.[46] It was from these countries that the rest of the world learned to make paper from linen.[47]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

This is all happening when Christians were destroying acquired knowledge and burning libraries.

And as we still see today US fundamentalist Christians are anti-science and book banners, just short of book burners. If they had control they would start burning libraries again.

 

[rousseau]

I don't know much about the influence of Islam on Europe, but I suspect the Enlightenment was more of a product of a growing economy and technical innovation (e.g. Printing Press). Eventually the conditions allowed for a huge intensification in personal study, resulting in kind of pseudo-scientific gains (natural philosophy).

In short, more information and shared understandings were made available, which acted as a precursor to a major intellectual revolution. Prior to that I don't know how robust science or philosophy really was, even in the Middle East.

 

[DBT]

During this period, the Muslims showed a strong interest in assimilating the scientific knowledge of the civilizations that had been conquered. Many classic works of antiquity that might otherwise have been lost were translated from Greek, Persian, Indian, Chinese, Egyptian, and Phoenician civilizations into Arabic and Persian, and later in turn translated into Turkish, Hebrew, and Latin.[5]

With a new and easier writing system, and the introduction of paper, information was democratized to the extent that, for probably the first time in history, it became possible to make a living from only writing and selling books.[45] The use of paper spread from China into Muslim regions in the eighth century, arriving in Al-Andalus on the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal) in the 10th century. It was easier to manufacture than parchment, less likely to crack than papyrus, and could absorb ink, making it difficult to erase and ideal for keeping records. Islamic paper makers devised assembly-line methods of hand-copying manuscripts to turn out editions far larger than any available in Europe for centuries.[46] It was from these countries that the rest of the world learned to make paper from linen.[47]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

This is all happening when Christians were destroying acquired knowledge and burning libraries.

And as we still see today US fundamentalist Christians are anti-science and book banners, just short of book burners. If they had control they would start burning libraries again.

That may have been the case in Muslim countries during the dark ages in Europe, but the question was: how much of this scientific activity in Islam, if any, actually contributed to the enlightenment in Europe?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Many Greek texts sent west from Constantinople, as the old Greek empire fell to the Moslems played a role.

 

[DBT]

But did this play a part in bringing about enlightenment, or did it just save material that would otherwise have been destroyed by the Church?

 

[untermensche]

That may have been the case in Muslim countries during the dark ages in Europe, but the question was: how much of this scientific activity in Islam, if any, actually contributed to the enlightenment in Europe?

Impossible to know.

There are no experiments that can be done.

But what can be known is Islamic culture had a great respect for science and literature while Christian Europe did not.

 

[Horatio Parker]

But did this play a part in bringing about enlightenment, or did it just save material that would otherwise have been destroyed by the Church?

I think so, but who knows. Could you've had enlightenment without the Reformation? I don't think the Reformation would've happened without those documents.

 

[J842P]

But did this play a part in bringing about enlightenment, or did it just save material that would otherwise have been destroyed by the Church?

I think so, but who knows. Could you've had enlightenment without the Reformation? I don't think the Reformation would've happened without those documents.

Why the Reformation? Maybe indirectly by the violence and wars that it caused. The Reformation essentially made Christianity *more crazy*. Luther was explicitly against using reason, and opened the door for modern fundamentalist Christianity.

 

[DBT]

Rather than the reformation. I was thinking more in terms of the advancement of science.

 

[rousseau]

Were Greek texts a necessary precursor to the enlightenment? They likely did hasten it, but I suspect there would have been a philosophical movement in Europe one way or another. The basis of which would have been economic, as Europe was becoming the focal point of the global economy. Eventually despotic government and religion became a hindrance to economic progress, and revolution just happened. Doesn't take much to realize that monarchy, and out-dated religious rules are dumb.

If you look back to the Axial age and the Indian/Greek/Chinese philosophies that were developed then, the basis was also economic. The communities had specialized to an extent that philosophy could be developed. I'd guess similar occurred as Europe started to organize itself after the fall of Rome.

 

[rousseau]

Rather than the reformation. I was thinking more in terms of the advancement of science.

I'd think of it less as an advancement of science, more an advancement of technology using reason. Capitalism and commerce likely drove most technical/'scientific' innovations in the early days, then eventually science became formalized as a discipline.

 

[J842P]

Rather than the reformation. I was thinking more in terms of the advancement of science.

Of course, that's what I thought you meant. There's a very Anglo-American tendency to think the Reformation was part of the Enlightenment for some reason.

 

[rousseau]

This might be a worthwhile read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science

 

[Politesse]

It certainly would have looked different without Aristotle and the Thomists.

Or for that matter, defiant adoration of the Bible as an anti-Qur'an and mortal terror of the Turks, both of which profoundly influenced the Reformation and thus helped unhook the universities from the Vatican.

But I do not think anything could have ultimately stopped the advancement of science; that has been an ongoing project of all humanity for a lery long time; knowledge is generated everywhere, it merely accumulates in the financial capitals of whatever empire is on top in any given century. That was Rome, then it was Baghdad, then it was Istanbul, then it was Seville and Cordoba, then...

And so it goes.

"Europe" is a much later invention than this time period; the people of France and Britain and Spain of this time period did not imagine themselves to be happy little friends of anyone who happened to share a continent/skin color. "Christendom" there was, perhaps, before the Reformation ripped it to shreds. But even that had only meant unity against non-Christian threats. Not amity and group projects in the meanwhile. The idea of an international system of secular universities patiently working together to advance common knowledge emerged only at the end of this time period.

 

[Horatio Parker]

But did this play a part in bringing about enlightenment, or did it just save material that would otherwise have been destroyed by the Church?

I think so, but who knows. Could you've had enlightenment without the Reformation? I don't think the Reformation would've happened without those documents.

Why the Reformation? Maybe indirectly by the violence and wars that it caused. The Reformation essentially made Christianity *more crazy*. Luther was explicitly against using reason, and opened the door for modern fundamentalist Christianity.

You seem to think the enlightenment happened in spite of the Reformation.

My point was that the logjam of thought maintained by the church was broken. That some thoughts or beliefs went the other way i.e. crazier is beside the point.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Rather than the reformation. I was thinking more in terms of the advancement of science.

I think the replacing of God with celestial mechanics does involve religion.

The fall off Byzantium led to, among other things, the realization that the Donation of Constantine was a forgery. Those repercussions ultimately resulted in someone like say Newton to be not threatened with the Inquisition. That seems kinda important to the "advancement" of science, the advancing taking place in people's awareness.

 

[DBT]

Rather than the reformation. I was thinking more in terms of the advancement of science.

I'd think of it less as an advancement of science, more an advancement of technology using reason. Capitalism and commerce likely drove most technical/'scientific' innovations in the early days, then eventually science became formalized as a discipline.

There is little doubt that these would be some of the factors. Not to mention great thinkers such as Galileo, Kepler, et al, who were quite capable of doing research and had the mental capacity for original thought.

 

[repoman]

So, wasn't the scientific climate of the Persians was already very strong and not greatly pushed around by religious concerns?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5fe2oe/what_percentage_of_the_islamic_golden_age_was/

Also, gotta say that the Persian language sounds really cool and Arabic sounds aggressive as hell. Kind of like French vs German or Dutch.

 

[Tharmas]

My thoughts, based on various histories I read years ago (I admit my memory may be somewhat faulty):

The Muslims conquered Spain in the Dark Ages, and it was slowly reconquered by Europeans. The reconquest was completed in about 1490, just in time to finance Columbus. The reconquest opened up many Arabic ideas and texts to Europeans, and for quite a while there was a going concern in Spain translating Arabic texts (including their translations of Greek texts) into Latin.

The great wealth unleashed by the conquest of the New World no doubt fueled cultural growth and transformation.

Among the concepts learned from the Arabs were: Arabic numerals, zero, algebra, etc. These concepts certainly had great impact on the development of science in the West, which in turn no doubt fueled the Enlightenment. The revolutions in astronomy and physics provided natural explanations to what had previously been the province of a deity. The stage was set for the conflict between Religion and Science.

As for the Reformation, no doubt it contributed to a sense of intellectual freedom, with the idea that individuals could determine Truth for themselves (super powered by the printing press). Consider that at about the same time the Muslim world officially declared that religious texts and dogma must supersede natural philosophy, thus effectively ending the Islamic renaissance.