Would You Choose to Live in Heaven?

[Learner]

I don’t get this. I honestly do not get why you are so scared to just describe the heaven you want t ask us whether we’d live in.

Can’t you pray about this or something? ASk for Jesus’ help in describing Heaven? If you’re sincere, I’ve heard he’ll give you what you want.


So far, all we have is this.

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

In what way is this different from a coma on a feeding tube?
*Is* it different?

People will live Happy and be free from death and sickness and have plenty of food and live in wonderful houses or mansions, and there will be wonderful trees and fields of green and all types of flowers and no more wild dangerous animals. There will be angels, saints, God and Jesus, and plenty of Love.

Coma hmmm. Previous Concept Discription not satisfying enough for you?

 

[Rhea]

People will live Happy and be free from death and sickness and have plenty of food and live in wonderful houses or mansions, and there will be wonderful trees and fields of green and all types of flowers and no more wild dangerous animals. There will be angels, saints, God and Jesus, and plenty of Love.

Coma hmmm. Previous Concept Discription not satisfying enough for you?

Will a mother whose children are atheists ever see them again in heaven?
Will a devout man who loves his wife get to live with her, even though she hated having to marry him and was oppressed by his overbearing ways and rejoiced when he died?

 

[skepticalbip]

I don’t get this. I honestly do not get why you are so scared to just describe the heaven you want t ask us whether we’d live in.

Can’t you pray about this or something? ASk for Jesus’ help in describing Heaven? If you’re sincere, I’ve heard he’ll give you what you want.


So far, all we have is this.

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

In what way is this different from a coma on a feeding tube?
*Is* it different?

People will live Happy and be free from death and sickness and have plenty of food and live in wonderful houses or mansions, and there will be wonderful trees and fields of green and all types of flowers and no more wild dangerous animals. There will be angels, saints, God and Jesus, and plenty of Love.

Coma hmmm. Previous Concept Discription not satisfying enough for you?

It is interesting that you see heaven as providing worldly, material comforts rather than something like spiritual enlightenment. Do "departed spirits" really desire big houses and yummy food?

 

[bilby]

You're kidding.
Free. Will.
Its two words.
Which one dont you understand?

Paging Dr Dunning and Dr Kruger.

Quantum - An amount of something; Often the smallest possible amount of that thing.

Mechanics - People who repair and maintain machines such as vehicles.

There you go; According to your methodology, I have just provided you with all the information you require to completely understand all about quantum mechanics. You should write to the Nobel institute, and ask them to prepare for your prizewinning thesis, post haste.

(snip)

Free will is a massively complex and much discussed issue in philosophy. It's highly doubtful whether many of the kinds of free will that philosophers discuss are even possible - some argue that none are.

Your limp dismissal of this entire field of thought is as clear a disqualifying feature as one could wish to see, for any person who seeks to usefully engage in this discussion. You have, once again, outed yourself as an ignoramus in areas vital to your arguments, and hence have (once again) demolished your own credentials and position in the eyes of any educated observer.

(snip)

 

[Lion IRC]

So which part of "free" + "will" don't you understand?

 

[southernhybrid]

So which part of "free" + "will" don't you understand?

We understand the concept, but some of are very skeptical that it exists. What don't you understand about that?

The reason I try not to be too judgmental of others is because I don't think we have much if any control over what we think, what we do or what we believe. Can you understand that?

Of course, since I too don't have much or any free will, my actions are limited by how I've been influenced by genetics and the environment. Imo, people who believe they have absolute free will often tend to be cruel and judgmental of others. They seem to think that anyone can accomplish what they have, or anyone can believe what they do, etc. People can't believe something that makes no sense to them. People are born with different potentials when it comes to intelligence, both emotional and intellectual. People are naturally skeptical or gullible enough to believe things that they are told or that they would like to be true. If we have any free will, I think it's very limited. Outside influences can sometimes change how we think to some extent but that's pretty rare when it comes to certain things that have been deeply ingrained in us.

So, you can stop with the free will nonsense, as quite a few of us don't think it exists or if it does, it's not significant.

 

[DBT]

So which part of "free" + "will" don't you understand?

How does will form? By what means? What cognitive role does conscious will play? Do you believe that will is in control of the brain? Do you believe will regulates the decision making process? In terms of neural activity, what is happening prior to conscious awareness?

 

[funinspace]

Basically, as its written and generally understood. There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

Perhaps do a little survey asking your Christian friends if they generally understand it, at least to some degree, to see if they see it the same way as I described.

According to your Bible, you may 'see your loved ones', but it certainly won't be anything like it was in earthly human form. There is purported to no longer be marriage, and I think it would be safe to assume that there would be no sensuality with said loved one. And without tears or pain, it raises big questions about how this new human form thinks and how much it would have to be changed to deal with those that weren't let in, assuming of course the proponent of heaven also believes in the opposing hell for everybody else. How does one not have pain about a son, daughter, wife, brother, mother, or father that is not there, and therefore in eternal torment? How does this new self exist, and how much changed would your brain/thinking process have to be, to not be disturbed by such?

The NT continues on this rather antiquated and deformed view of human sexuality with its fantasy eternal life theme...

Christian reference on heaven and marriage: https://www.crosswalk.com/family/marriage/will-i-still-be-married-to-my-spouse-in-heaven.html

 

[Learner]

I don’t get this. I honestly do not get why you are so scared to just describe the heaven you want t ask us whether we’d live in.

Can’t you pray about this or something? ASk for Jesus’ help in describing Heaven? If you’re sincere, I’ve heard he’ll give you what you want.


So far, all we have is this.

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

In what way is this different from a coma on a feeding tube?
*Is* it different?


ANSWER to your question: No I would not live in your vague, cagey, deceptive coma world. It describes something that could be truly horrific and you are not making me o anyone feel any more comfortable about it with your terrified fear of describing it.

I missed the last paragraph ANSWER.

Despite the false persistent rhetoric highlighted in red, and quite a few posts in, you at least gave some answer. As I posted in #58, there's enough to go on, understanding from the emotional aspect etc..

 

[Learner]

I think it's a place for those who wouldn't like to kill someone.

so, not many Xians, huh?

Those guys can be pretty bloodthirsty. They keep excusing all the times god kills someone in the Books. They cheer at the scene where the Pharaoh's chariots get drowned.
They demand tge death sentence for abortionists, women who abort.
They're okay with the death penalty.
How many liked Ann's response to 9/11, "Invade their countries, kill their keaders, force them to become Christains!"
How mzny evangelicals say Trump should turn the other cheek, how many want all the democrats lined up and shot?

How many people alive today, Learner, do you think would get into that Heaven?
Where are thdy?

We accept not ALL who come under the banner of Christianity, will be accepted (may even include myself). It's on a case by case basis.

How many theists on THIS forum advocate or argue, for any of the list you've given above? I don't recall seeing any. Nevertheless, it's on a Case by case basis.

 

[Rhea]

Learner, you just have just read my answer to whether I would buy a pig in a poke. An eternity with barely understood parameters. It is my opinion that anyone who would sign up for an eternity with barely understood vague, ambiguous and smoke-and-mirror descriptions is the most dangerous kind of utter fool.

I live in a world of failure mode analysis, potential problem analysis, situation appraisal and serious or lethal risk mitigation. You are asking my brain to answer, “would you go into this chemical room? There’s chemicals, they will make you happy. Everyone who has never been in there says so.”


You need to understand that’s my head. That’s my train of thought. There is NO FUCKING WAY I would go in that room. No fucking way at all.

I ask you,
“what chemicals? How do they interact? What is their nature? Flammability? Half Life? Toxicity?”
And you say,
“Why don’t you tell me what you think they are, or ask your friends.”
And I say,
“No YOU tell me what the chemicals are. Tell me what you saw on the Materials Safety Data Sheets tell me their names at least.”
And you say,
“They’re just chemicals, you know, like water is a chemical.”

If you think anyone should go into that room given what you’ve said, then you have a whole different way of thinking than I do. There is NO FUCKING WAY I am going in that room. And moreover, I am getting as far away from YOU as I possibly can because you are Chernobyl waiting to happen.


You don’t get this. You think you can just say, “It’s really happy in there” and that is how you make decisions in life. You don’t hear me (and others) saying again and again and again and fucking AGAIN that you don’t understand your audience and you are asking a question that we CANNOT answer.

Your head is in the sand. You think you’re a genius, and you can’t even read the plain words on the paper to learn something about your partners in the conversation. I have been asking you straight up to explain more about your heaven, and all you give is dodgy one-liners of shallow pablum that is indistinguishable from an LSD trip. Literally - I could not tell the difference - and despite my very plain and very clear request that you describe something that you plan to do for ETERNITY in more than two sentences, you can’t. Or you won’t. Or you are afraid to. I have no idea. But you don’t.

Why don’t you pray on it? Ask Jesus to help you describe it. Don’t you believe that would work?

Why don’t you tell us WHY YOU WON’T DESCRIBE HEAVEN?

Let’s spend some time on that.

 

[Learner]

I got your "sort of hypothetical" answer previously, will have to get back to you; haven't responded yet to the others.

 

[Rhea]

I got your answer previously, will have to get back to you; haven't responded yet to the others.

Dood. They have the same question.
And just so you know - you have not demonstrated that you understand my answer. At all.

 

[Rhea]

So far, all we have is this.

There's no more suffering pain, no death or disease, but theres abundance of various things that caters for every need e.g. no more hunger or thirst etc. in the paradise, and not to forget, also seeing your loved ones and above all ... God.

In what way is this different from a coma on a feeding tube?
*Is* it different?


ANSWER to your question: No I would not live in your vague, cagey, deceptive coma world. It describes something that could be truly horrific and you are not making me o anyone feel any more comfortable about it with your terrified fear of describing it.

I missed the last paragraph ANSWER.

Despite the false persistent rhetoric highlighted in red, and quite a few posts in, you at least gave some answer. As I posted in #58, there's enough to go on, understanding from the emotional aspect etc..

You think this is “enough to go on”??

"no suffering" et al is more than just some "technical speak negation". It's the impacting affect it has - when people DO understand the concept described emotionally / compassionately , i.e. Love, Happiness and Joy!!! The comparisons understood from the atrocities et al, which is Being the END OF those atrocities, experienced throughout ALL of mans history that is found to be emotionally detested.

Someone tells you “no suffering” and you think “I want to go there” ??

Are you serious?

We can explore - do a little brainstorming - about what things could cause “no suffering” and ask ourselves if we really want to go there.

1. Annihilation - if you are killed and made to not exist any more, there is no suffering.
2. Comatose - you can have your brain interrupted from activity. No suffering.
3. Drugged/drunk - you can buy these ingredients right here on earth, and while you are on them - you do not feel any suffering, nor even any contemplation of the histpry of mankind.
4. Virtual Reality - you can have your body in a nutrient holding tank and a false reality fed to you that appears completely the way it would be perfect to you. Whether you want to just do math all day, or murder and dismember puppies. Whatever brings you *joy* you got it, and no one else suffers because they are not real.
5. Horribly Incorrect Patronizing - you can be stuck in someone else’s idea of perfection and since they insist that you like it, they won’t change a thing and you are in torment of their version of “no suffering” and they are oblivious to your suffering. For eternity.

Which of those worlds are you willing to live in, Learner? Do you pick Door number 1 or Door number 5? Because your description includes all of these.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I not only wouldn't choose to live in heaven, I don't like any zoned communities. Especially zoned communities with security gates.

 

[Rhea]

I not only wouldn't choose to live in heaven, I don't like any zoned communities. Especially zoned communities with security gates.

This is a great point. What choices have I made so far in life?

I, too, am not suited to zoning, homeowner associations (HOAs) or gated communities. So my “heaven” would permit me to ignore my neighbor’s fallen down barn because it’s not my business to hassle them, while simultaneously our OTHER neighbor’s “heaven” would require the barn neighbor to hire a backhoe and bury it, taking them away from their heaven of just watching the cow graze around the wreckage.

Quite a conundrum! Whose heaven gets to exist?

 

[Learner]

People will live Happy and be free from death and sickness and have plenty of food and live in wonderful houses or mansions, and there will be wonderful trees and fields of green and all types of flowers and no more wild dangerous animals. There will be angels, saints, God and Jesus, and plenty of Love.

Coma hmmm. Previous Concept Discription not satisfying enough for you?

It is interesting that you see heaven as providing worldly, material comforts rather than something like spiritual enlightenment. Do "departed spirits" really desire big houses and yummy food?

Trusting and getting to know more about God and Jesus and the Gospel IS the enlightenment.

Using the term Heaven in context to paradise, consists of New Heaven and New Earth. As you may remember since you mentioned you read the bible more than theists (which you may do). A little more in depth you'll get scriptures about resurections, like Jesus who was able to EAT fish, and also be examined by Thomas, who had doubts of His return AFTER His ressurection. Atheists funny enough, like to use the term "zombie" in physical context terms.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think it's a place for those who wouldn't like to kill someone.

so, not many Xians, huh?

Those guys can be pretty bloodthirsty. They keep excusing all the times god kills someone in the Books. They cheer at the scene where the Pharaoh's chariots get drowned.
They demand tge death sentence for abortionists, women who abort.
They're okay with the death penalty.
How many liked Ann's response to 9/11, "Invade their countries, kill their keaders, force them to become Christains!"
How mzny evangelicals say Trump should turn the other cheek, how many want all the democrats lined up and shot?

How many people alive today, Learner, do you think would get into that Heaven?
Where are thdy?

We accept not ALL who come under the banner of Christianity, will be accepted (may even include myself). It's on a case by case basis.

yeah, you say you accept that, but truth is, you're really sure you're making the cut, aren't you?
And everyone who kills or supports killing in God's namd is sure they're acing the test, too.
And the evangelicals supporting Trump's excesses, his efforts to speed executions, and pardon war criminals, all sure they've got a lock on salvation.

How many theists on THIS forum advocate or argue, for any of the list you've given above?

What yhe fuck difference does that make?
You said, not wanting to kill, I said few Xians would show up on the invited list if sorted by that filter.

I don't recall seeing any.

So, like i said, you think YOU'RE Heaven-bound, and use yourself as the metric.
I've met too many Christains with diametrically opposed theologies to feel any one of them has a significant lock on God. Except Tony.

 

[Learner]

We accept not ALL who come under the banner of Christianity, will be accepted (may even include myself). It's on a case by case basis.

yeah, you say you accept that, but truth is, you're really sure you're making the cut, aren't you?

Well if this is supposed to be an argument. I certainly hope I make the cut, been told many times that apparrently I contradict other Christians that may or may not have that much difference, on the whole. But I certainly ain't done of those you posted previously, which I assume you are NOT liking their particular ways!

Case by case.

And everyone who kills or supports killing in God's namd is sure they're acing the test, too.
And the evangelicals supporting Trump's excesses, his efforts to speed executions, and pardon war criminals, all sure they've got a lock on salvation.

How many theists on THIS forum advocate or argue, for any of the list you've given above?

What yhe fuck difference does that make?
You said, not wanting to kill, I said few Xians would show up on the invited list if sorted by that filter.

I don't recall seeing any.

So, like i said, you think YOU'RE Heaven-bound, and use yourself as the metric.
I've met too many Christains with diametrically opposed theologies to feel any one of them has a significant lock on God. Except Tony.

Is that an argument you got to the topic of the thread??. It's not about me....or is it? Grandiosed credibility on line - calling one's self a Christian, a true Christian, looking down on the rest?

I don't claim to know everything, I learn from other Christians. Some differences may not matter at all.

Some real passion in some responding posts. Fair enough I suppose.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Well if this is supposed to be an argument.

no, no. You asked a question.
But would i choose to live in a heaven of y our making, or someone else's? Whose description? Whose standards for who does/doesn't get in?

I certainly hope I make the cut, been told many times that apperrently I contradict other Christians that may or may not have that much difference, on the whole. But I certainly ain't one of those you posted previously, which I assume you are NOT liking their particular ways!

like or don't like doesn't help determine which ones any possible god like. The old testament guy was a bloodthirsty fuck, so there's just no telling.

Is that an argument you got to the topic of the thread??. It's not about me....

it's entirely about uou. And about Ann Colter. And Westboro. And Pope Benedict.
When you say "Heaven," how did you come to determine what that word means?
I think it was Marx that said I would not want to join a club that would let me be a member. I might not choose to go to a Heaven some people might imagine. Maybe because of their idea of god, or of how we'll spend eternity, or how our options might be limited, or completely disposed. Or maybe, as Joel says, the sinners are much more fun than the saints.

Anyway, you cannot just adk who would turn down Heaven. Too vague.
Too many candidate systems proposed by humans. Need to flesh ot out.