Yet another war, this time with Iran

[Toni]

Yes. You think Trump had a point.

Trump often has at least concepts of a point. The problem is the execution. This idiotic deal is his worst TACO yet.

Yeah, I think his concept of a point was to rattle some sabres and look tough and give Hagbreath something to do.

Failed miserably and a bunch of people, including some little girls are dead.

Oh, and the world hates us more, which I dud not think possibke

Oh, and Israel is now more isolated. Us, too. Putin must be elated.

 

[steve_bank]

DrZ

Have no idea on what you base your views.

You are drinking the Israeli Kool-Aid, that it is all about antisemitism.

You need to listen to what Netanyahu and the government say. Netanyahu has been explicit, Jews have a biblical god given right to all land that was Israel 2000 years ago. Zionism.

In a religion thread you said religion is toxic, well there it is.

The West Bank has been a slow motion ethnic cleansing since the beginning.

We can question the terrorist methods used against Israel, but Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

Land seizure, arbitrary and indefinite detention witho9ut legal recourse.

 

[DrZoidberg]

DrZ

Have no idea on what you base your views.

You are drinking the Israeli Kool-Aid, that it is all about antisemitism.

You need to listen to what Netanyahu and the government say. Netanyahu has been explicit, Jews have a biblical god given right to all land that was Israel 2000 years ago. Zionism.

In a religion thread you said religion is toxic, well there it is.

The West Bank has been a slow motion ethnic cleansing since the beginning.

We can question the terrorist methods used against Israel, but Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

Land seizure, arbitrary and indefinite detention witho9ut legal recourse.

Sure. But Netanyahu in power is a reaction to how they've been treated by the Muslims over the years. Your causal chain is all backward

The Palestinians have overplayed their hand and behaved so abominably I don't think they have any legitimate grievance any more. There's a context


Actions has to have consequences or we're all fucked

 

[Gospel]

DrZ

Have no idea on what you base your views.

You are drinking the Israeli Kool-Aid, that it is all about antisemitism.

You need to listen to what Netanyahu and the government say. Netanyahu has been explicit, Jews have a biblical god given right to all land that was Israel 2000 years ago. Zionism.

In a religion thread you said religion is toxic, well there it is.

The West Bank has been a slow motion ethnic cleansing since the beginning.

We can question the terrorist methods used against Israel, but Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

Land seizure, arbitrary and indefinite detention witho9ut legal recourse.

Isn't that kind of the point? A democracy at least has mechanisms to correct those injustices over time. The United States before and after the Civil Rights Movement looks very different because democratic institutions eventually allowed excluded groups to push for equal rights.

A state that defines itself primarily as the nation-state of one particular people will always face tension between maintaining that identity and treating all groups equally. That's not unique to Israel; it's a challenge inherent to any state built around a specific ethnic, national, or religious identity.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As I expected Netanyahu is now saying fuck the USA and everybody else, Israel will not give up occurred land.

Netanyahu is certainly saying the prior right now... with Trump saying Iran should be allowed to have ballistic missiles.

Trump expects Iran to stop supporting Hamas while Israel keeps taking Palestinian land.

Actually, according to the agreement, that doesn't seem to have entered the chat yet.

It was a standoff due to Hormuz and Trump upset the apple cart. Israel sucked him into war. The Obama agreement was probably the best that is possible.

It certainly was, but even as things stand, I hadn't thought an agreement would be this one-sided in Iran's favor. I was anticipating something not as good as the Obama deal, but not the whatever in the heck this thing is.

Any peace agreement will not last unless Israel is reigned in. Israel has said it is looking for support, distancing from USA.

It is quite something that Iran wedges in Lebanon (Point 1), yet, the Trump Admin doesn't wedge in protection for Israel. Instead, it says the two nations (US and Iran) will remain outside their internal interests (Point 2). Israel having to stop stuff with Lebanon would probably be accepted by Israel if Hamas and Hezbollah are also sidelined, permanently would be nice. That Israel isn't even part of the agreement in a positive manner is baffling as Israel was the one that took out the Iranian leadership.

Is this incompetence at the highest level of US governance? In the world of diplomatic tit for tat, the response to:

Iran: Israel must get out of Lebanon.
USA/Israel: Okay, Hezbollah and Hamas must be closed down.

not

USA: Okay.

Are we seeing an agreement from a compromised President (Russia stepped in), a stupid President (man woman camera tv), or a desperate President (economic side of things). Or some combination of the three? Or are the Arab nations stepping in and saying "we'll take this from here" because they are realizing that Trump isn't worth the cost and some business agreement can be had with Iran?

Then we have the domestic side of things. Where in the fucking hell is the GOP?! Is the entire party compromised? This Memo of Understanding makes the exit of Vietnam look like WWII victory and at worst, a few GOP Senators are saying "excuse me, excuse me".

The bombastic assholery from the GOP over Whitewater, Lewinsky's dress, over the ACA, transgender policies... and you'd think all Trump did was fart during a prime-time speech. And he's moving on to trying to end the NAFTA 1.01 agreement now.

 

[SLD]

Surrender at Versailles. 127 years apart. Though only difference is we are paying far more in reparations than Germany did.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yes. You think Trump had a point.

Trump often has at least concepts of a point. The problem is the execution. This idiotic deal is his worst TACO yet.

Yeah, I think his concept of a point was to rattle some sabres and look tough and give Hagbreath something to do.

Failed miserably and a bunch of people, including some little girls are dead.

Oh, and the world hates us more, which I dud not think possibke

Oh, and Israel is now more isolated. Us, too. Putin must be elated.

And poor little Pete lost his first war.

 

[TV and credit cards]

"My message to them would be twofold. No. 1: Donald J. Trump is the only head of state in the entire world who is sympathetic to the nation of Israel at this moment in time," Vance told reporters at the White House.
"If I was in the cabinet of the Israeli government, I might not be attacking the only powerful ally that I have anywhere left in the entire world."
He said he would also remind those cabinet members that two-thirds of the defensive weapons that have protected Israel "have been built by American hands and paid for by American tax dollars."

It is refreshing to hear a US politician make a statement of reality about Israel.
Now can the same be done toward Russia?

 

[Derec]

"My message to them would be twofold. No. 1: Donald J. Trump is the only head of state in the entire world who is sympathetic to the nation of Israel at this moment in time," Vance told reporters at the White House.
"If I was in the cabinet of the Israeli government, I might not be attacking the only powerful ally that I have anywhere left in the entire world."
He said he would also remind those cabinet members that two-thirds of the defensive weapons that have protected Israel "have been built by American hands and paid for by American tax dollars."

It is refreshing to hear a US politician make a statement of reality about Israel.
Now can the same be done toward Russia?

With Trump getting more and more senile, I suspect this disastrous deal is at the hands of Benedict Arnold Vance. That the islamophilic Left agrees with him re Israel is all the more reason to distrust him.

There was no reason whatsoever to agree to this disastrous "deal". It goes well beyond even Trump's usual level of incompetence. The GOP needs to agnew that Quisling Vance, and quickly.

 

[laughing dog]

"My message to them would be twofold. No. 1: Donald J. Trump is the only head of state in the entire world who is sympathetic to the nation of Israel at this moment in time," Vance told reporters at the White House.
"If I was in the cabinet of the Israeli government, I might not be attacking the only powerful ally that I have anywhere left in the entire world."
He said he would also remind those cabinet members that two-thirds of the defensive weapons that have protected Israel "have been built by American hands and paid for by American tax dollars."

It is refreshing to hear a US politician make a statement of reality about Israel.
Now can the same be done toward Russia?

With Trump getting more and more senile, I suspect this disastrous deal is at the hands of Benedict Arnold Vance. That the islamophilic Left agrees with him re Israel is all the more reason to distrust him.

There was no reason whatsoever to agree to this disastrous "deal". It goes well beyond even Trump's usual level of incompetence. The GOP needs to agnew that Quisling Vance, and quickly.

It is an incredibly dumb deal. Since there is no evidence that Trump ever listens to Vance, there is little reason to blame this on him. If Trump signs this deal, that is evidence that Trump's negotiating team made the deal within their given parameters. If Trump does not sign this deal, while the logical conclusion is that the Trump team violated some given parameters, but with Trump, it could be that his Big Mac had the wrong amount of ketchup on it that morning.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

"My message to them would be twofold. No. 1: Donald J. Trump is the only head of state in the entire world who is sympathetic to the nation of Israel at this moment in time," Vance told reporters at the White House.
"If I was in the cabinet of the Israeli government, I might not be attacking the only powerful ally that I have anywhere left in the entire world."
He said he would also remind those cabinet members that two-thirds of the defensive weapons that have protected Israel "have been built by American hands and paid for by American tax dollars."

It is refreshing to hear a US politician make a statement of reality about Israel.
Now can the same be done toward Russia?

With Trump getting more and more senile, I suspect this disastrous deal is at the hands of Benedict Arnold Vance. That the islamophilic Left agrees with him re Israel is all the more reason to distrust him.

How many Democrats have been celebrating over this memorandum of agreement?

There was no reason whatsoever to agree to this disastrous "deal". It goes well beyond even Trump's usual level of incompetence. The GOP needs to agnew that Quisling Vance, and quickly.

Dude, the GOP is almost silent about this agreement. Much like every other anti-GOP thing he's done.

"My message to them would be twofold. No. 1: Donald J. Trump is the only head of state in the entire world who is sympathetic to the nation of Israel at this moment in time," Vance told reporters at the White House.
"If I was in the cabinet of the Israeli government, I might not be attacking the only powerful ally that I have anywhere left in the entire world."
He said he would also remind those cabinet members that two-thirds of the defensive weapons that have protected Israel "have been built by American hands and paid for by American tax dollars."

It is refreshing to hear a US politician make a statement of reality about Israel.

What?! Trump's remark about the ballistic missiles probably led to a massive spit-take by the entire Knesset.

The US has supported Israel... A LOT. But it sure the heck wasn't Trump... and Trump is definitely not supporting Israel with this agreement. Netanyahu's leadership, radicalism, and stupidity aside, Israel isn't a villain. The government of Israel is woefully fractured. It isn't like Netanyahu's party got 85% of the vote. Trump allowing Iran to include Lebanon in this while not pushing hard on Hezbollah and Hamas support is flat out flummoxing.

As far as US weapons made by "American hands", Israel military support is military industrial complex welfare. Doesn't mean a darn thing!

Now can the same be done toward Russia?

Part of me wonders whether Russia is pulling the strings here. Unless the Arabs are paying Iran to stop it with the nuclear weapons, which is why Trump is in some ways abandoning Israel.

 

[Derec]

Netanyahu is certainly saying the prior right now... with Trump saying Iran should be allowed to have ballistic missiles.

This is a particularly stupid thing to say, and it is incongruous with both prior Trump policies as well as with common sense.
Unfortunately, Democrats gaining power in 2028 will not be any guarantee of foreign policy sanity given how the DSA/Hasan Piker wing is gaining power within the party.

It was a standoff due to Hormuz and Trump upset the apple cart. Israel sucked him into war. The Obama agreement was probably the best that is possible.

US could have waited out the Hormuz blockade. We have the shale revolution, and could have used it to our advantage. There was no need to enter this disastrous "deal".

The problem is that just like with Nazi Germany, appeasing the Tehran Regime does not work. Obama agreement made the Regime stronger through sanction relief and giving them pallets of cash. And the nuclear restrictions weren't even permanent and would have expired by now anyway. Giving up Yemen to the Houthis also made the Regime stronger. And now the Trump administration is compounding these mistakes by chamberlaining harder than ever.

It is quite something that Iran wedges in Lebanon (Point 1), yet, the Trump Admin doesn't wedge in protection for Israel. Instead, it says the two nations (US and Iran) will remain outside their internal interests (Point 2). Israel having to stop stuff with Lebanon would probably be accepted by Israel if Hamas and Hezbollah are also sidelined, permanently would be nice. That Israel isn't even part of the agreement in a positive manner is baffling as Israel was the one that took out the Iranian leadership.

Which is why I expect that Vance is responsible for this more than Trump. Just like Biden, Trump is getting more senile and it's easier for people to whisper things into his ear like Grima Wormtongue did with King Theoden.

Are we seeing an agreement from a compromised President (Russia stepped in), a stupid President (man woman camera tv), or a desperate President (economic side of things). Or some combination of the three? Or are the Arab nations stepping in and saying "we'll take this from here" because they are realizing that Trump isn't worth the cost and some business agreement can be had with Iran?

I think it's Trump increasingly losing the plot and it's getting easier for the likes of Vance to manipulate him.

Then we have the domestic side of things. Where in the fucking hell is the GOP?! Is the entire party compromised? This Memo of Understanding makes the exit of Vietnam look like WWII victory and at worst, a few GOP Senators are saying "excuse me, excuse me".

And where are the Democrats? They are also increasingly getting compromised because the DSA/Mamdani/Hasan Piker axis is getting more powerful, and that Axis likes the Iranian theocrats, Hamas and Hezbollah, and hates Israel.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Netanyahu is certainly saying the prior right now... with Trump saying Iran should be allowed to have ballistic missiles.

This is a particularly stupid thing to say, and it is incongruous with both prior Trump policies as well as with common sense.
Unfortunately, Democrats gaining power in 2028 will not be any guarantee of foreign policy sanity given how the DSA/Hasan Piker wing is gaining power within the party.

CAN YOU JUST STOP IT FOR ONE DAMN POST? Trump is the President. The DSA/Hasan Piker don't have anyone in the Senate, forget in a Cabinet, or in the White House.

It was a standoff due to Hormuz and Trump upset the apple cart. Israel sucked him into war. The Obama agreement was probably the best that is possible.

US could have waited out the Hormuz blockade. We have the shale revolution, and could have used it to our advantage. There was no need to enter this disastrous "deal".

I think your quotes are off. That wasn't me saying that. Also, critical fuel shortage no later than August. We couldn't wait much longer.

The problem is that just like with Nazi Germany, appeasing the Tehran Regime does not work. Obama agreement made the Regime stronger through sanction relief and giving them pallets of cash.

No, it didn't and I have no idea why you and people like you struggle to understand what the Iran Agreement gained Israel and the West... and the Iranians. It was a long con diplomatic stroke of genius that gave Iran what was already their's, and gained a critical way in to the nuclear program and works on increasing the creeping Western influence on Iranian society, which will modernize it again.

It is quite something that Iran wedges in Lebanon (Point 1), yet, the Trump Admin doesn't wedge in protection for Israel. Instead, it says the two nations (US and Iran) will remain outside their internal interests (Point 2). Israel having to stop stuff with Lebanon would probably be accepted by Israel if Hamas and Hezbollah are also sidelined, permanently would be nice. That Israel isn't even part of the agreement in a positive manner is baffling as Israel was the one that took out the Iranian leadership.

Which is why I expect that Vance is responsible for this more than Trump. Just like Biden, Trump is getting more senile and it's easier for people to whisper things into his ear like Grima Wormtongue did with King Theoden.

It is incredible how you are managing to get these anti-Democrat remarks in at every single opportunity, or just ramming them in every where you can. Trump has issues, but I don't think those issues are what is happening here. Additionally, we really have no idea what is going on... other than Trump has signed onto an agreement that makes little sense. Not Biden, not the blind Sheikh. The guy the GOP isn't kicking out of office yet!

Then we have the domestic side of things. Where in the fucking hell is the GOP?! Is the entire party compromised? This Memo of Understanding makes the exit of Vietnam look like WWII victory and at worst, a few GOP Senators are saying "excuse me, excuse me".

And where are the Democrats? They are also increasingly getting compromised because the DSA/Mamdani/Hasan Piker axis is getting more powerful, and that Axis likes the Iranian theocrats, Hamas and Hezbollah, and hates Israel.

JFCoaS.

 

[Patooka]

Didn't the righty's freak out about Obama giving Iran 400 million of their own money back to them? Now we're giving them 300 billion of our money???

Winning?

Man, I wish angelo was still posting here. The mental gymnastic he would have to be doing would be phenomenal.

 

[Patooka]

U.S., Iran have reached a deal to end fighting, Trump and mediator Pakistan say, President Donald Trump earlier urged all parties not to “blow it” after Israel’s attack on Beirut’s southern suburbs further complicated the prospects of reaching a deal.

I don't get what they're supposed to be negotiating about. Trump said that if Iran murders more of it's own citizens Trump will attack.

Ok, Trump did that.

He can just stop. He's already made his point. Trump can stop shooting rockets and drones without looking like a failure. Iran now knows that they can't just murder their own people with zero repurcussions.

Have I missed something?

There was no point except to try to make Trump look tough and to give Hegseth something to do.

Made you forget about Epstein for 5 seconds though...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Gotta be thinking Greenland hopes it is next.

 

[steve_bank]

DrZ

Have no idea on what you base your views.

You are drinking the Israeli Kool-Aid, that it is all about antisemitism.

You need to listen to what Netanyahu and the government say. Netanyahu has been explicit, Jews have a biblical god given right to all land that was Israel 2000 years ago. Zionism.

In a religion thread you said religion is toxic, well there it is.

The West Bank has been a slow motion ethnic cleansing since the beginning.

We can question the terrorist methods used against Israel, but Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

Land seizure, arbitrary and indefinite detention witho9ut legal recourse.

Sure. But Netanyahu in power is a reaction to how they've been treated by the Muslims over the years. Your causal chain is all backward

The Palestinians have overplayed their hand and behaved so abominably I don't think they have any legitimate grievance any more. There's a context


Actions has to have consequences or we're all fucked

Netanyahu came to and stayed power by a coalition of ultra conservative Jews. Don['t know if it has changed. The orthodox religious class was exempt from militray seivice and paid by the state to study religion.

His coalition is dominated by Zionists. While superficially a secu8ar goverrnmentr, Israel is not a secular dem0cracy as in the west, There i no constitutions and holistically non Jews meaning Arabs did not have equal protection.

He was always an extremjnati0nali9st and against making peace with Arabs. There is evidence that while he may not have been part of the plot to kill Rabin, he knew about it and did nothing. Rabin was assanited for suprtng peace with Arabs.

If you view Israel as a group of harmless passive people put upon by antisemites you are wrong. There is opposition to the conservatives and it is suppressed much like Trump tries to suppress criticism. I have looked at Israeli English language media.

I read several books on Palestine on the run up to the Jewish declaration of state and the first war.

 

[DrZoidberg]

DrZ

Have no idea on what you base your views.

You are drinking the Israeli Kool-Aid, that it is all about antisemitism.

You need to listen to what Netanyahu and the government say. Netanyahu has been explicit, Jews have a biblical god given right to all land that was Israel 2000 years ago. Zionism.

In a religion thread you said religion is toxic, well there it is.

The West Bank has been a slow motion ethnic cleansing since the beginning.

We can question the terrorist methods used against Israel, but Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

Land seizure, arbitrary and indefinite detention witho9ut legal recourse.

Sure. But Netanyahu in power is a reaction to how they've been treated by the Muslims over the years. Your causal chain is all backward

The Palestinians have overplayed their hand and behaved so abominably I don't think they have any legitimate grievance any more. There's a context


Actions has to have consequences or we're all fucked

Netanyahu came to and stayed power by a coalition of ultra conservative Jews. Don['t know if it has changed. The orthodox religious class was exempt from militray seivice and paid by the state to study religion.

His coalition is dominated by Zionists. While superficially a secu8ar goverrnmentr, Israel is not a secular dem0cracy as in the west, There i no constitutions and holistically non Jews meaning Arabs did not have equal protection.

He was always an extremjnati0nali9st and against making peace with Arabs. There is evidence that while he may not have been part of the plot to kill Rabin, he knew about it and did nothing. Rabin was assanited for suprtng peace with Arabs.

If you view Israel as a group of harmless passive people put upon by antisemites you are wrong. There is opposition to the conservatives and it is suppressed much like Trump tries to suppress criticism. I have looked at Israeli English language media.

I read several books on Palestine on the run up to the Jewish declaration of state and the first war.

My point is that the religious condervatives slowly taking over is a response by the Israelis due to Muslim behaviour.

Israel was founded as a leftist, progressive and secular state, a safe zone from religious persecution. The Muslims intransigence has over time made the progressives give up.

There's no point for Israel in treating the Muslims with respect. No matter what they do the Muslims just hate them.

The current situation is a result of that

 

[TV and credit cards]

"My message to them would be twofold. No. 1: Donald J. Trump is the only head of state in the entire world who is sympathetic to the nation of Israel at this moment in time," Vance told reporters at the White House.
"If I was in the cabinet of the Israeli government, I might not be attacking the only powerful ally that I have anywhere left in the entire world."
He said he would also remind those cabinet members that two-thirds of the defensive weapons that have protected Israel "have been built by American hands and paid for by American tax dollars."

It is refreshing to hear a US politician make a statement of reality about Israel.
Now can the same be done toward Russia?

With Trump getting more and more senile, I suspect this disastrous deal is at the hands of Benedict Arnold Vance. That the islamophilic Left agrees with him re Israel is all the more reason to distrust him.

There was no reason whatsoever to agree to this disastrous "deal". It goes well beyond even Trump's usual level of incompetence. The GOP needs to agnew that Quisling Vance, and quickly.

There most certainly is reason to agree to this deal, that being the ongoing draw down of oil reserves and that by the end of summer, we would be looking at nearly another dollar tacked onto the PPG at the pump going into election season.

 

[TV and credit cards]

"My message to them would be twofold. No. 1: Donald J. Trump is the only head of state in the entire world who is sympathetic to the nation of Israel at this moment in time," Vance told reporters at the White House.
"If I was in the cabinet of the Israeli government, I might not be attacking the only powerful ally that I have anywhere left in the entire world."
He said he would also remind those cabinet members that two-thirds of the defensive weapons that have protected Israel "have been built by American hands and paid for by American tax dollars."

It is refreshing to hear a US politician make a statement of reality about Israel.

What?! Trump's remark about the ballistic missiles probably led to a massive spit-take by the entire Knesset.

The US has supported Israel... A LOT. But it sure the heck wasn't Trump... and Trump is definitely not supporting Israel with this agreement. Netanyahu's leadership, radicalism, and stupidity aside, Israel isn't a villain. The government of Israel is woefully fractured. It isn't like Netanyahu's party got 85% of the vote. Trump allowing Iran to include Lebanon in this while not pushing hard on Hezbollah and Hamas support is flat out flummoxing.

As far as US weapons made by "American hands", Israel military support is military industrial complex welfare. Doesn't mean a darn thing!

Now can the same be done toward Russia?

Part of me wonders whether Russia is pulling the strings here. Unless the Arabs are paying Iran to stop it with the nuclear weapons, which is why Trump is in some ways abandoning Israel.

Vance's remarks are, that at the end of the day Trump does not have to consult Israel on anything. That the US is all Israel has. And that the flow of weapons from the US to Israel is at Trump's discretion.

While the world may not see Israel as a villain, they most certainly are seen as going completely overboard in their response.

Netanyahu's Israel is accepting US weapons and using them to fight a war Trump is telling them to take a beat on. True? This has gone completely ignored. Trump does not like to be ignored. Trump is vindictive.

Presently I do not se how this benefits Russia. Russia's own domestic gasoline market is in dire straits. No pun intended. Due to Ukrainian strikes, Russia cannot no longer refine enough of its own oil to meet Russia's gasoline demands. The latest Ukrainian strikes near Moscow, reportedly took 35% of Moscow's gasoline supply offline. As a result, Russia is actually exporting more oil. They simply do not have the capacity to refine it. So reality has hit Moscow and either Moscow goes on gas rationing or more gasoline get redirected form other parts of Russia to keep Muscovites content.