GenesisNemesis
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2006
- Messages
- 3,844
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- Basic Beliefs
- Secular Humanist, Scientific Skepticism, Strong Atheism
[insert religionist whining about atheists having moral dilemmas here]
It doesn't matter what the condition of the girl is - she could have autism and be a multiple amputee - she is a person and the embryos aren't -they are just collections of cells - just like a limb that a surgeon amputates to save the life of a person is many millions of cells. This is a no-brainer.
Why does the girl currently being a person matter? In other words, how is it not reasonable to consider outcomes that are other than immediate or short term?
Could make it more of a moral dilemma by stating that the embryos are vital to a cure for a disease, but even then I would save a real person over hypothetical lives saved.
Ok, so let's include that. Why would you save the currently real person then? Assuming that the embryos are vital to a cure for a currently-incurable disease and that you know this, and you have no good reason not to think that the embryos are in fact vital.
This starts to make this dilemma a bit of a trolley problem in reverse in some ways, I think, because now we are effectively choosing how many people to save rather than how many to kill. We could imagine a trolley that would either kill one person now or multiple people later, further down the line.
In other ways it's a bit like the 'walk away from Omelas' problem, in the sense that it's asking whether a 'bad' outcome for one person (the girl) outweighs the 'good' for many, albeit in this case a future many, not a currently existing many.
Am I allowed to deliberately break the embryo container?I reckon I already know what Pyramidhead might say if and when he reads this.
So, it's not even an issue of 1000's of lives compared to one. It's an issue of "an idea" versus "a person" (ie, an entity with an interest in its current, present life).Why does the girl currently being a person matter?
Ok so there's the various trolley problems (which I enjoy pondering over). Any other good ones?
I'll offer one I know of. It's really only a dilemma for some people.
You're in a burning building in which, as far as you know, you are the only occupant. As you try to make your escape, you hear a muffled whimpering behind a door. You open the door and in the room is a little 4 year-old girl, cowering in the corner. You also notice a large container labelled "contents: 100 live human embryos" (it's a medical building of some sort, as it happens). You can't take both the girl and the container and you won't be able to come back into the building. You can only save one of the two. Which?
You can change the number of hypothetical embryos to 100,000 or much more if that helps you decide the number of embryos that would make the container the thing worth saving, of the two, in your opinion.
Creative solutions are allowed, but no breaking the stated 'rules' (restrictions) of the scenario. Also, no complaining that it's not a fair question or a realistic situation.
That may or may not be one of the best dilemmas ever invented but I have used it in discussions with pro-lifers, especially those who say that every human life is precious.
I thought of another one in the shower earlier today, which I had made up myself, but I've forgotten it.
Feel free to try to think up your own examples, or post ones that you feel are juicy.
Feel free to post versions of trolley problems also.
Where do I find a blue pill?
[insert religionist whining about atheists having moral dilemmas here]
Where do I find a blue pill?
And then there's this scenario, here described by wikipedia, from a 1973 short story, which is a bit blue pill/red pill:
The story begins by describing the first day of summer in Omelas, a shimmering city of unbelievable happiness and delight. In Omelas, the summer solstice is celebrated with a glorious festival and a race featuring young people on horseback. The vibrant festival atmosphere, however, seems to be an everyday characteristic of the blissful community, whose citizens, though limited in their advanced technology to communal (rather than private) resources, are still intelligent, sophisticated, and cultured. Omelas has no kings, soldiers, priests, or slaves. The specific socio-politico-economic setup of the community is not mentioned, but the narrator merely explains that the reader cannot be sure of every particular.
Self-admittedly, the uncertain narrator reflects that "Omelas sounds in my words like a city in a fairy tale, long ago and far away, once upon a time. Perhaps it would be best if you imagined it as your own fancy bids, assuming it will rise to the occasion, for certainly I cannot suit you all."
Everything about Omelas is so abundantly pleasing that the narrator decides the reader is not yet truly convinced of its existence and so elaborates upon one final element of the city: its one atrocity. The city's constant state of serenity and splendor requires that a single unfortunate child be kept in perpetual filth, darkness, and misery.
Once citizens are old enough to know the truth, most, though initially shocked and disgusted, ultimately acquiesce to this one injustice [because it] secures the happiness of the rest of the city. However, a few citizens, young and old, silently walk away from the city."
The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas
- - - Updated - - -
It's a false dichotomy. Even if we take the Red Pill we don't know that the knowledge is actual knowledge. The so called "Red Pill" movement is just a bunch of morons getting stressed about nothing.
In the scenario, the red pill does what it says it does. Just stick to the scenario.
Well, for most people, I think life is really starting off with the blue pill and moving on with more and more of the red one and less and less of the blue one, until you get really old and stare at the naked truth. We can't choose.Blue Pill: Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion.
Red pill: Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality.
Ok so there's the various trolley problems (which I enjoy pondering over). Any other good ones?
I'll offer one I know of. It's really only a dilemma for some people.
You're in a burning building in which, as far as you know, you are the only occupant. As you try to make your escape, you hear a muffled whimpering behind a door. You open the door and in the room is a little 4 year-old girl, cowering in the corner. You also notice a large container labelled "contents: 100 live human embryos" (it's a medical building of some sort, as it happens). You can't take both the girl and the container and you won't be able to come back into the building. You can only save one of the two. Which?
You can change the number of hypothetical embryos to 100,000 or much more if that helps you decide the number of embryos that would make the container the thing worth saving, of the two, in your opinion.
Creative solutions are allowed, but no breaking the stated 'rules' (restrictions) of the scenario. Also, no complaining that it's not a fair question or a realistic situation.
That may or may not be one of the best dilemmas ever invented but I have used it in discussions with pro-lifers, especially those who say that every human life is precious.
I thought of another one in the shower earlier today, which I had made up myself, but I've forgotten it.
Feel free to try to think up your own examples, or post ones that you feel are juicy.
Feel free to post versions of trolley problems also.
And then there's this one:
View attachment 19281
Red pill: Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality
Blue Pill: Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion.
It's a false dichotomy. Even if we take the Red Pill we don't know that the knowledge is actual knowledge. The so called "Red Pill" movement is just a bunch of morons getting stressed about nothing.
Blue Pill: Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion.
Red pill: Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality.