Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[Loren Pechtel]

Absolutely that's not true. Loren in particular has repeatedly equated ovulation with ejaculation.

I simply flipped your argument. I was showing the problem with your argument, not actually arguing that ovulation is the cause.

OTOH, ejaculation is almost always voluntary and the result of voluntary action on the part of the man. Women, OTOH, do not have to agree to penetration, vaginal penetration or ejaculation without the use of a condom in order to conceive. They are NOT analogous nor are they equal.

We are talking about consensual sex, not rape. Rape pregnancy is 100% the man's fault, nobody except some delusional QOPers are denying that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You said being female was "a choice made [for her] by her dad". There was no 'choice' involved on anybody's part. Men do not choose the sex of their children.

While they can't choose the sex they can fiddle with the dice, making it substantially off from 50:50. Woman comes first, man ejaculates deep favors boys, woman doesn't come, man ejaculates very shallow favors girls. I suspect timing compared to ovulation also would be a factor but I've never seen it addressed. (Basically, all of this comes down to the fact that Y sperm tend to be faster but X sperm have more endurance. Make conception easier and the Y is more likely to win the race, make conception harder and the Y is more likely to have fallen by the wayside, the X winning by default.)

 

[Toni]

Absolutely that's not true. Loren in particular has repeatedly equated ovulation with ejaculation.

I simply flipped your argument. I was showing the problem with your argument, not actually arguing that ovulation is the cause.

[/QUOTE]

No, you were attempting to equate two things which are not equivalent. My argument and reasoning are sound. Yours is flawed.

OTOH, ejaculation is almost always voluntary and the result of voluntary action on the part of the man. Women, OTOH, do not have to agree to penetration, vaginal penetration or ejaculation without the use of a condom in order to conceive. They are NOT analogous nor are they equal.

We are talking about consensual sex, not rape. Rape pregnancy is 100% the man's fault, nobody except some delusional QOPers are denying that.

YOU were talking about consensual sex. I was talking about pregnancy, period. I realize that men prefer not to think about rape at all and for the most part, they don't need to. However, women DO need to think about rape throughout their lives. Indeed, many cannot ever forget about rape for a second because they are survivors of rape or sexual assault.

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them. I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go.

Without ejaculation, there would be very few (or no) pregnancies.
Ovulation and spermatogenesis are analogous.
Ovulation and ejaculation are NOT analogous. The first is under autonomic control. The second normally occurs as a matter of choice.

My initial statement and every post in this thread has been all inclusive with regards to ejaculation being necessary for all pregnancies. Metaphor pointed out that sperm might be obtained otherwise as happened with his brother. I'm not questioning Metaphor on an event that he knows much more about than I do but I am much more familiar with the practice of inducing ejaculation in a comatose patient for the purposes of semen retrieval for a spouse who wishes to carry their child. This isn't surgical procedure. I'm not going into details because it really does tend to make most people squirm. It's not much different than when they induce livestock to ejaculate, collect the semen and use it to selectively impregnate suitable female livestock. I'll leave it there, with apologies all around for any discomfort.

 

[TomC]

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them.

You mean like when people point out that most pregnancies result from consensual sex, and you change the subject to rape?

Or when people point out that women have agency, and can make choices before having sex, and you respond with "Every pregnancy is the result of a man ejaculating!"?

Yeah, right.
It's "men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them." that's the problem with this issue.

How feminist.
Tom

 

[Toni]

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them.

You mean like when people point out that most pregnancies result from consensual sex, and you change the subject to rape?

Or when people point out that women have agency, and can make choices before having sex, and you respond with "Every pregnancy is the result of a man ejaculating!"?

Yeah, right.
It's "men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them." that's the problem with this issue.

How feminist.
Tom

No, not at all.

When men want to avoid talking about all pregnancies, not just the ones they wish to acknowledge. The way that men in this thread have attempted to tell me I'm not discussing things correctly when actually I started this conversation.

Men attempting to define conversations along lines that suit them and silence conversation that makes them uncomfortable. Indeed, that is a problem.

You are not compelled to participate. I'm not compelled to post only what you feel is acceptable.

 

[TomC]

When men want to avoid talking about all pregnancies, not just the ones they wish to acknowledge.

Who do think you're kidding?
With your gender bigoted "men"?

Most of us, including all the men as I recall, are talking about all pregnancies. It's people like you who keep changing the subject. It's like you don't think that women are capable of making a bad decision, so you insist that irresponsible sexual choices are necessarily the result of men making choices. You've done that over and over.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

When men want to avoid talking about all pregnancies, not just the ones they wish to acknowledge.

Who do think you're kidding?
With your gender bigoted "men"?

Can you explain how accurately refering to male posters is “gender bigoted”?

Most of us, including all the men as I recall, are talking about all pregnancies…so you insist that irresponsible are necessarily the fault of men.

Your recall snd reading comprehension are faulty. There is st least one poster who narrowly defines voluntary sex to exclude lies ir mistakes. Moreover, Toni has explained multiple times her point is that the usual onus to orevent the pregnancy is on the woman and the role if the male is minimized.

 

[TSwizzle]

Men attempting to define conversations along lines that suit them and silence conversation that makes them uncomfortable. Indeed, that is a problem.

You are not compelled to participate. I'm not compelled to post only what you feel is acceptable

You are entertaining in the same way that when one receives a call about how your social security number has been suspended. An interlude to one’s dreary work day where one can see how long you can keep the caller on the line. Who will cave first.? You’ve circled so many times you must be dizzy.

Women get pregnant because they have sex, mostly. Men get women pregnant because they have sex with them.

 

[Toni]

When men want to avoid talking about all pregnancies, not just the ones they wish to acknowledge.

Who do think you're kidding?
With your gender bigoted "men"?

Most of us, including all the men as I recall, are talking about all pregnancies. It's people like you who keep changing the subject. It's like you don't think that women are capable of making a bad decision, so you insist that irresponsible sexual choices are necessarily the result of men making choices. You've done that over and over.
Tom

May I remind you that I started the thread. Men in this thread have repeatedly insisted that they were talking about pregnancies which occur through consensual sex and I’ve been thoroughly castigated for mentioning rape.

Here’s the thing:

ALL pregnancies occur because some man ejaculated. He may have ejacukated in or near a vagina. He may have ejacukated into a sample cup. But that’s how pregnancies happen: pregnancies that occur through consensual sex, through in vitro, and through rape.

Pregnancies that occur through rape happen just the same way pregnancies happen with living married couples: the man ejaculates in or near the woman’s vagina during the window of time that she is fertile.

It’s the same process whether the pregnancy is a longed for event, inconvenient t, unwanted or as a result of rape

 

[Toni]

Men attempting to define conversations along lines that suit them and silence conversation that makes them uncomfortable. Indeed, that is a problem.

You are not compelled to participate. I'm not compelled to post only what you feel is acceptable

You are entertaining in the same way that when one receives a call about how your social security number has been suspended. An interlude to one’s dreary work day where one can see how long you can keep the caller on the line. Who will cave first.? You’ve circled so many times you must be dizzy.

Women get pregnant because they have sex, mostly. Men get women pregnant because they have sex with them.

You’re not obligated to read or respond to anything I write.

Your responses have ceased to be responses and now are only excuses to insult and harass me.

 

[Bomb#20]

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them. I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go.

According to you, men start pregnancies. So according to your logic, men get to define how pregnancies go. You think abortion should only be allowed if the sperm donor consents?

You started this thread and you get to define what you post into it; the rest of us didn't start it and we get to define what we post into it. Being the OP doesn't make you queen.

 

[laughing dog]

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them. I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go.

According to you, men start pregnancies. So according to your logic, men get to define how pregnancies go.

Why do you think “men get to define how pregnancies go” is the necessary result from”men start pregnancies”?

 

[Bomb#20]

My apologies: A better word would have been determined. In human reproduction, sex is determined by the father.

Nonsense. Sex is determined by which sperm wins a swim meet. The father does not determine which sperm wins. You might as well claim Parker Brothers determines whether you land on Boardwalk since it manufactured the dice.

 

[Bomb#20]

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them. I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go.

According to you, men start pregnancies. So according to your logic, men get to define how pregnancies go.

Why do you think “men get to define how pregnancies go” is the necessary result from”men start pregnancies”?

Why do you think you're entitled to beat your wife?

 

[Bomb#20]

The way that men in this thread have attempted to tell me I'm not discussing things correctly when actually I started this conversation.

Are you under the impression that starting the conversation confers on you the superpower of never discussing things incorrectly? Men in this thread have been pointing out the errors in facts and logic that permeate your posts. If you don't like being told you've made a mistake, stop making mistakes.

 

[fromderinside]

Ejaculation is voluntary.

Obviously written by one who never experienced male puberty.

 

[Toni]

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them. I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go.

According to you, men start pregnancies. So according to your logic, men get to define how pregnancies go. You think abortion should only be allowed if the sperm donor consents?

You started this thread and you get to define what you post into it; the rest of us didn't start it and we get to define what we post into it. Being the OP doesn't make you queen.

Exactly: I don’t get to tell other people what to post. But at least one poster is telling me what I should or should not post.

Maybe read for context and not as an opportunity to post outrage. K

 

[laughing dog]

It is very telling that repeatedly men are attempting to define the conversation along lines that suit them. I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go.

According to you, men start pregnancies. So according to your logic, men get to define how pregnancies go.

Why do you think “men get to define how pregnancies go” is the necessary result from”men start pregnancies”?

Why do you think you're entitled to beat your wife?

i don’t .

I asked because your question appeared uncharacteristically illogical to me that I thought I missed the underlying nuanced reason(s). I used the present tense to ask you to show your work. Your insulting deflection strongly suggests to me that there your question had no logical foundation.



is

 

[Toni]

My apologies: A better word would have been determined. In human reproduction, sex is determined by the father.

Nonsense. Sex is determined by which sperm wins a swim meet. The father does not determine which sperm wins. You might as well claim Parker Brothers determines whether you land on Boardwalk since it manufactured the dice.

The father produces the sperm. The sperm determines the sex. The father producing the sperm determines the sex. My use of the word 'determines' does not, in this instance, imply conscious choice but mere biological fact. I thought that was obvious because I corrected my word choice.

I may be taking you wrong, but you seem to be deliberately argumentative.

 

[TomC]

I may be taking you wrong, but you seem to be deliberately argumentative.

I understand that you didn't choose to make the derail into a thread.

But go back and reread the first post in the thread. Scroll through a few of your own posts in it.

See if you can understand why I find this quote from you so laughably ironic.
Tom