DeSantis signs bill requiring FL students, professors to register political views with state

[laughing dog]

…< snipped pedantic spinning> …..

When someone openly equates “ left” with “ far left” + “ liberal”, the spin is mind- numbing.

But bravo to your tactless reactionary but begrudging nod to reality.

 

[Metaphor]

…< snipped pedantic spinning> …..

When someone openly equates “ left” with “ far left” + “ liberal”, the spin is mind- numbing.

But bravo to your tactless reactionary but begrudging nod to reality.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It isn't false. It is supported by surveys of academics. The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia and it has been that way since the 1960s.

You are incorrect. The surveys indicate that a growing majority of professors identify themselves as either liberal or moderate and a declining minority identify as conservative.

Are Colleges and Universities Too Liberal? What the Research Says About the Political Composition of Campuses and Campus Climate

“Is Academe Awash in Liberal Bias?” This is one of many recent headlines trying to grapple with a question that we’ve been debating for decades: are colleges and universities dominated by liberals? Over the past few years, charges that colleges and universities are “about Radical Left...

www.aei.org

The HERI approach that asks how faculty members self-identify across the political spectrum gives us a better sense of the ideological leanings among the professoriate. It powerfully shows that the number of faculty on the right is far outweighed by those who identify as moderate or on the left. In 1989-1990, when HERI first fielded this survey, 42% of faculty identified as being on the left, 40% were moderate, and another 18% were on the right. This is not a normal curve – it is a clear lean to the left.

Almost three decades later in 2016-2017, HERI found that 60% of the faculty identified as either far left or liberal compared to just 12% being conservative or far right. In 1989, the liberal: conservative ratio of faculty was 2.3. So in less than 30 years the ratio of liberal identifying faculty to conservative faculty had more than doubled to 5.

You appear to assume as do many that one's political identification must somehow creep in or poison the curriculum and class room.

I did not say that, though I see Toni's constant accusations of having said that are now colouring your own perceptions.

I said the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. I did not say political ideology 'must' creep into the classroom, nor did I say professors indoctrinate their students. Stop acting as if I did.

AEI is far right.

And is this actually a bias at universities or is it just a reflection of what happens with education? People with more education tend to be more liberal.

 

[Metaphor]

It isn't false. It is supported by surveys of academics. The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia and it has been that way since the 1960s.

You are incorrect. The surveys indicate that a growing majority of professors identify themselves as either liberal or moderate and a declining minority identify as conservative.

Are Colleges and Universities Too Liberal? What the Research Says About the Political Composition of Campuses and Campus Climate

“Is Academe Awash in Liberal Bias?” This is one of many recent headlines trying to grapple with a question that we’ve been debating for decades: are colleges and universities dominated by liberals? Over the past few years, charges that colleges and universities are “about Radical Left...

www.aei.org

The HERI approach that asks how faculty members self-identify across the political spectrum gives us a better sense of the ideological leanings among the professoriate. It powerfully shows that the number of faculty on the right is far outweighed by those who identify as moderate or on the left. In 1989-1990, when HERI first fielded this survey, 42% of faculty identified as being on the left, 40% were moderate, and another 18% were on the right. This is not a normal curve – it is a clear lean to the left.

Almost three decades later in 2016-2017, HERI found that 60% of the faculty identified as either far left or liberal compared to just 12% being conservative or far right. In 1989, the liberal: conservative ratio of faculty was 2.3. So in less than 30 years the ratio of liberal identifying faculty to conservative faculty had more than doubled to 5.

You appear to assume as do many that one's political identification must somehow creep in or poison the curriculum and class room.

I did not say that, though I see Toni's constant accusations of having said that are now colouring your own perceptions.

I said the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. I did not say political ideology 'must' creep into the classroom, nor did I say professors indoctrinate their students. Stop acting as if I did.

AEI is far right.

Even if I accepted the stratospherically idiotic statement above as true, AEI didn't conduct the survey(s) in question, HERI at UCLA did.

Though I'm guessing UCLA is 'far right', too, right?

And is this actually a bias at universities or is it just a reflection of what happens with education? People with more education tend to be more liberal.

Before we even get to the question of bias, it seems I can't even get people to agree on the zeroth premise: "the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia".

The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Until you and the others denying this comes to grip with this basic fact, there can't be any further conversation.

 

[laughing dog]

The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia.

No matter how many times you repeat it or spin it, it remains a reactionary opinion driven by the absurd conflation of “liberal” with “left”.

 

[Metaphor]

The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia.

No matter how many times you repeat it or spin it, it remains a reactionary opinion driven by the absurd conflation of “liberal” with “left”.

Sure hun.

 

[Ford]

Cool: multiple lines of evidence point to it being leftist: How about some links?

I've already posted a link.

A link to the American Enterprise Institute? Might as well post one from the John Birch Society, too.

 

[Metaphor]

Cool: multiple lines of evidence point to it being leftist: How about some links?

I've already posted a link.

A link to the American Enterprise Institute? Might as well post one from the John Birch Society, too.

You clearly did not read it. The AEI summarised the various data sources but did not run the surveys.

But I am glad you have been up front with your dismissal of evidence without examining it.

The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

 

[fromderinside]

Two notions one must consider they are US constitutional restrictions on political speech and US constitutional restrictions on objective speech. Both are protected explicitly in

 Freedom of speech in the United States​

Florida's law blatantly violates professional and political speech freedoms. The only loopholes are with respect to alignments with foreign governments. Almost no current American political belief is subject to Constraint.

Any body who suggests leftist views are anti-American needs a history lesson. There is equal opportunity for all belief systems to get educations. That right leaning learned chose to enter business rather than academia is their choice.

We're going to correct the land versus cities problem re voting in the future as well.

Its a fact that for every 50,000 persons in a community economic opportunity increases about 5%. Its a fact we are social beings.

Technology isn't evil people using technology are the sources of evil. Its a society so lax with their standards of good behavior that they refuse to upgrade regulations IAW of technology use that are facilitating declines in overall behavior.

Until we understand the need to take into account lazy thinking we are going to suffer.

 

[Metaphor]

Two notions one must consider they are US constitutional restrictions on political speech and US constitutional restrictions on objective speech. Both are protected explicitly in

 Freedom of speech in the United States​

Florida's law blatantly violates professional and political speech freedoms.

Oh yes. How?

 

[Ford]

Cool: multiple lines of evidence point to it being leftist: How about some links?

I've already posted a link.

A link to the American Enterprise Institute? Might as well post one from the John Birch Society, too.

You clearly did not read it. The AEI summarised the various data sources but did not run the surveys.

But I am glad you have been up front with your dismissal of evidence without examining it.

The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

You clearly don't understand the difference between an opinion piece and facts. The AEI has a very clear agenda, and if you were even remotely intellectually honest, you'd post the actual sources rather than an opinion piece written by a right wing think tank drawing their own conclusions from the data. Think tanks and industry outfits are notorious for doing shady shit like this. If we were to take them at their word, we'd still be spraying DDT on crops and watching shows like "Temptation Island - sponsored by Marlboro! Light up, kids...scientists say cigarettes are perfectly safe!"

And for the right in America, folks like Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney are now considered "the left." I'm willing to bet that if you told a Trump supporter some Ronald Reagan quotes without telling them who said the words, they'd think it was from a "radical leftist."

 

[Metaphor]

Cool: multiple lines of evidence point to it being leftist: How about some links?

I've already posted a link.

A link to the American Enterprise Institute? Might as well post one from the John Birch Society, too.

You clearly did not read it. The AEI summarised the various data sources but did not run the surveys.

But I am glad you have been up front with your dismissal of evidence without examining it.

The left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

You clearly don't understand the difference between an opinion piece and facts.

You clearly didn't read my link.

The AEI has a very clear agenda, and if you were even remotely intellectually honest, you'd post the actual sources

I did.

rather than an opinion piece written by a right wing think tank drawing their own conclusions from the data. Think tanks and industry outfits are notorious for doing shady shit like this. If we were to take them at their word, we'd still be spraying DDT on crops and watching shows like "Temptation Island - sponsored by Marlboro! Light up, kids...scientists say cigarettes are perfectly safe!"

And for the right in America, folks like Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney are now considered "the left." I'm willing to bet that if you told a Trump supporter some Ronald Reagan quotes without telling them who said the words, they'd think it was from a "radical leftist."

I posted the link to the HERI report. Not a landing page, the actual report. Read it or don't.

If you'd read it, you'd realise it is people's self-identification about their political ideology, not the AEI's opinion. Not even UCLA's opinion, who ran the survey.

But I've really lost my patience with this. I've typed and deleted insults as a result of how utterly frustrating I find the leftists here denying obvious facts is.

You clearly do not believe the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. I can't explain why you resist this fact, but you do.

 

[Ford]

I posted the link to the HERI report. Not a landing page, the actual report. Read it or don't.

If you'd read it, you'd realise it is people's self-identification about their political ideology, not the AEI's opinion. Not even UCLA's opinion, who ran the survey.

But I've really lost my patience with this. I've typed and deleted insults as a result of how utterly frustrating I find the leftists here denying obvious facts is.

You clearly do not believe the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. I can't explain why you resist this fact, but you do.

ONE report. Pretty sure I and others asked for multiple sources.

But at least you've lost your patience and got frustrated. You're welcome.

As to whether the left "heavily" outweighs the right in US academia, it is my opinion that this is a trope constantly trotted out by a right wing that hates and fears education in general. It is usually fun to watch right wingers froth at the mouth over the supposed "left wing" bias in education, because it is painfully obvious that what angers them is not the political leanings of the professors, but the idea that the kiddos might be exposed to ideas beyond that which can fit on a bumper sticker or a red hat.

It stops being funny when right wing political leaders try to make that idea into law, such as happened in Florida. The right in this country is literally burning books to keep them away from giving children the notion that there might be something beyond strict conservative orthodoxy, and they've done such a good job pushing the propaganda that there are idiots who actually believe what's happened in Florida is somehow an effort to expand the viewpoints that students are exposed to in schools. Somehow the rubes have gotten it into their minds that they are freeing students to explore "both sides" while at the same time screaming death threats at school administrators who even THINK about teaching even a tiny part of Critical Race Theory, or the reality of what we did to the Native Americans, or that Joe McCarthy was a paranoid asshole who used his power to ruin the lives of other Americans.

I "resist" your point of view because it is apparent that if there was a rebirth of the "House Un-American Activities" committee, you'd be cheering from the sidelines or maybe even donating money to the modern day McCarthy's. Fun fact: There is nothing illegal about being "liberal" or "left" in this country, yet you seem to think that anything to the left of what YOU believe is "American" must be stamped out. If you really believed in the ideas of freedom of expression and freedom of thought, this Florida law would be the thing that makes you lose your patience, type and then delete insults, and get utterly frustrated.

Instead, your opinion is "I don't see what's wrong here."

 

[Metaphor]

I posted the link to the HERI report. Not a landing page, the actual report. Read it or don't.

If you'd read it, you'd realise it is people's self-identification about their political ideology, not the AEI's opinion. Not even UCLA's opinion, who ran the survey.

But I've really lost my patience with this. I've typed and deleted insults as a result of how utterly frustrating I find the leftists here denying obvious facts is.

You clearly do not believe the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. I can't explain why you resist this fact, but you do.

ONE report. Pretty sure I and others asked for multiple sources.

You didn't even bother to read the first link. Why should I provide multiple links for you not to read or acknowledge? Why should 'multiple' sources be required? What was wrong with the HERI study?

But at least you've lost your patience and got frustrated. You're welcome.

Yes, I am often frustrated by religious believers and their resistance to facts.

As to whether the left "heavily" outweighs the right in US academia, it is my opinion that this is a trope constantly trotted out by a right wing that hates and fears education in general.

I didn't ask for your opinion on whether it was a trope. I am asking you to accept the fact that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

It is usually fun to watch right wingers froth at the mouth over the supposed "left wing" bias in education, because it is painfully obvious that what angers them is not the political leanings of the professors, but the idea that the kiddos might be exposed to ideas beyond that which can fit on a bumper sticker or a red hat.

It stops being funny when right wing political leaders try to make that idea into law, such as happened in Florida. The right in this country is literally burning books to keep them away from giving children the notion that there might be something beyond strict conservative orthodoxy, and they've done such a good job pushing the propaganda that there are idiots who actually believe what's happened in Florida is somehow an effort to expand the viewpoints that students are exposed to in schools. Somehow the rubes have gotten it into their minds that they are freeing students to explore "both sides" while at the same time screaming death threats at school administrators who even THINK about teaching even a tiny part of Critical Race Theory, or the reality of what we did to the Native Americans, or that Joe McCarthy was a paranoid asshole who used his power to ruin the lives of other Americans.

I "resist" your point of view because it is apparent that if there was a rebirth of the "House Un-American Activities" committee, you'd be cheering from the sidelines or maybe even donating money to the modern day McCarthy's. Fun fact: There is nothing illegal about being "liberal" or "left" in this country, yet you seem to think that anything to the left of what YOU believe is "American" must be stamped out.

Your perception is false, slanderous, and ridiculous.

If you really believed in the ideas of freedom of expression and freedom of thought, this Florida law would be the thing that makes you lose your patience, type and then delete insults, and get utterly frustrated.

Instead, your opinion is "I don't see what's wrong here."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the law. What there is something wrong with is the hysterical and moronic knee-jerk response from the left on it, starting with this thread title and continuing with yours and others denial and resistance to basic facts, such as that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia.

Ford, you appear to have taken great delight that your false, obstinate and faith-based position frustrated me. I am sorry you take delight in that, and I don't know how any dialogue with you could be productive while you continue to have that attitude.

 

[Ford]

As to whether the left "heavily" outweighs the right in US academia, it is my opinion that this is a trope constantly trotted out by a right wing that hates and fears education in general.

I didn't ask for your opinion on whether it was a trope. I am asking you to accept the fact that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

You seem to be stuck on this idea that your opinion is fact. I do not accept your opinion as fact. Repeatedly stating your opinion as fact does not make it factual. This is known as the "Big Lie," and is straight out of the fascist playbook.

And even if we were to accept that your opinion is partially true, and that academics tend to lean liberal...so fucking what?

I could just as easily (and as factually) claim that most CEOs lean heavily right. Does that mean there should be a law requiring anyone who opens a business to state their political opinions so the state can track them? No. Individuals have a right to an opinion and have a right to their political leanings. What you seem to be implying is that leaning "left" should be a disqualification for a career in academia, and that institutions of higher learning should deny employment to a person based upon their party affiliation or political leanings.

Again, this is fascism. At the end of the day, the political leanings of a college professor are none of your goddamned business, none of the state's goddamned business, and unless they are advocating violence should not matter one tiny bit.

 

[fromderinside]

Two notions one must consider they are US constitutional restrictions on political speech and US constitutional restrictions on objective speech. Both are protected explicitly in

 Freedom of speech in the United States​

Florida's law blatantly violates professional and political speech freedoms.

Oh yes. How?

Read this article:

https://www.salon.com/2021/06/23/desantis-signs-bill-requiring-florida-students-professors-to-register-political-views-with-state/​

Snippets:

Republicans have long held that universities promote left-wing ideologies and discriminate against conservative students and staff.

Though the bill does not specify what the survey results will be used for, both DeSantis and Rodrigues suggested that the state could institute budget cuts if university students and staff do not respond in a satisfactory manner.

When pressed by reporters, the governor did not offer any specific examples of repression and discrimination faced by conservative students, simply saying that he knows "a lot of parents" who worry about their children being "indoctrinated" on campus.

Florida Senate President Wilton Simpson was more pointed in his criticism Tuesday at a meeting of the state university system's Board of Governors, calling the institutions "socialism factories" — again without much detail on what makes the schools so left-wing.

In addition to the survey, the bill also prevents officials from limiting campus speech that "may be uncomfortable, disagreeable or offensive" — a measure that, as Democrats in the state Legislature pointed out, will also make it easier for groups like the KKK or the Proud Boys to hold events on campus.

In a conversation with the Miami Herald this April, Barney Bishop, one of the top lobbyists pushing the bill in Florida's state legislature over the past year, shone a light on the justifications behind such measures — which he said were less about "intellectual diversity" and more concerned with maintaining the country's conservative Christian identity in the face of younger, more diverse generations that share a dimmer view of religious right-wing orthodoxy.

Bishop also told the paper he "certainly hopes" the effort will expand into the K-12 system over time.

"I think the problem isn't just in higher ed. The truth of the matter is that kids are being indoctrinated from an early age," he said.

"I think that those of us who have diverse thinking and look at both sides of the issue, see that the way the cards are stacked in the education system, is toward the left and toward the liberal ideology and also secularism — and those were not the values that our country was founded on. Those are the values that we need to get our country back to."


Why are legislators using speech muzzling to limit the way state and nation are turning?

 

[Ford]

"I think that those of us who have diverse thinking and look at both sides of the issue, see that the way the cards are stacked in the education system, is toward the left and toward the liberal ideology and also secularism — and those were not the values that our country was founded on. Those are the values that we need to get our country back to."


Why are legislators using speech muzzling to limit the way state and nation are turning?

And here we come to the heart of the matter.

The "we need to take our country back" narrative. The idea that somehow liberal, secular thought is at odds with the "values" of the country and that it is the job of the state to steer everyone back to conservative values. Perhaps some of these folks missed the little holiday we celebrated 11 days ago that commemorates a fucking revolution against authority? A revolution that rejected "traditional values" like having a king. Having an official state religion. Having a society where speaking out against those powers was tantamount to treason. Had they lost, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and all the other figures that are revered as our "founding fathers" would have found themselves at the short end of a rope.

But wait...there's more! The philosophical underpinnings of the revolution were rooted in the Enlightenment. Literally a wholesale rejection of superstition in favor of reason and science. The guy who is on the $100 bill challenged the idea that lightning is just god being angry, and was one of the early pioneers of research into electricity...that thing without which we wouldn't be able to argue here on the internet. Franklin, along with Paine, Madison and others were decidedly not expressing "conservative values." In fact they were about as radical as you could get in the late 18th Century. And they were...wait for it...academics. While they weren't professors, they were learned men who relied on reason and evidence to inform their opinions and were also open to changing their minds if presented with new ideas.

It is difficult to know what they would think of our society today, but I'm willing to bet that my ancestor who stood on Breed's Hill and waited to fire until the British were close enough would be dumbstruck to learn that after centuries of democracy, self-styled "patriots" tried to overthrow the republic in order to install a king.

 

[Metaphor]

As to whether the left "heavily" outweighs the right in US academia, it is my opinion that this is a trope constantly trotted out by a right wing that hates and fears education in general.

I didn't ask for your opinion on whether it was a trope. I am asking you to accept the fact that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

You seem to be stuck on this idea that your opinion is fact. I do not accept your opinion as fact. Repeatedly stating your opinion as fact does not make it factual. This is known as the "Big Lie," and is straight out of the fascist playbook.

It is not my opinion that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. It is a fact.

And even if we were to accept that your opinion is partially true, and that academics tend to lean liberal...so fucking what?

We haven't yet agreed to the zeroth premise. Did you read my links?

I could just as easily (and as factually) claim that most CEOs lean heavily right.

No, you could not claim that as factually, unless you have surveys of CEOs in America that include their self-described political leanings.

But also, there are prominent companies that obviously lean very heavily left, not right. Some of these companies are multinational multibillion dollar affairs.

Does that mean there should be a law requiring anyone who opens a business to state their political opinions so the state can track them? No.

No. The government does not have a general case to go enquire after the private corporate culture of companies not owned by the government, unless there is a compelling public interest.

Also, your sentence is misleading. The government wants to track university culture, not the political opinions of individual staff and students. Stop reinforcing the misleading, false, and hysterical OP title.

Individuals have a right to an opinion and have a right to their political leanings.

I absolutely agree.

What you seem to be implying is that leaning "left" should be a disqualification for a career in academia,

I did not say it, I did not imply it, and don't believe it.

and that institutions of higher learning should deny employment to a person based upon their party affiliation or political leanings.

I did not say it, I did not imply it, and don't believe it.

Again, this is fascism. At the end of the day, the political leanings of a college professor are none of your goddamned business, none of the state's goddamned business, and unless they are advocating violence should not matter one tiny bit.

The cultural environment of State institutions that exist based on State finances is very much the State's business.

I work for the State. I am surveyed every year. There is nothing improper, and much that can be gained, by understanding the attitudes and perceptions of employees.

I am sorry you hate information.

 

[Swammerdami]

I didn't ask for your opinion on whether it was a trope. I am asking you to accept the fact that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

I will guess that "leftists" and "left-of-center" people are much more common than "rightists" and "right-of-center" people among teachers in secular colleges. It would be very surprising if this were not the case. Consider:

• People smart enough to be college professors would often be able to find a much more lucrative career. Academic types find thrill and joy from science, learning and teaching. Right-wingers are usually motivated by money.
• The "right", at least in America, tends to reject evolution, reject climate change, reject all but grade-school economics, and oppose objective, scientific studies of history. Many right-wingers are ideologically unprepared for fact-based teaching, and should rightfully be turned down if they apply for an academic post.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the law. What there is something wrong with is the hysterical and moronic knee-jerk response from the left on it, starting with this thread title and continuing with yours and others denial and resistance to basic facts, such as that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia.

Should teachers and students also be required to divulge their sexual preferences?

 

[Metaphor]

I didn't ask for your opinion on whether it was a trope. I am asking you to accept the fact that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia. Accept the fact or don't.

I will guess that "leftists" and "left-of-center" people are much more common than "rightists" and "right-of-center" people among teachers in secular colleges. It would be very surprising if this were not the case.

Could you tell that to the people resisting this fact in the thread? Perhaps, since they reject the evidence of surveys, they might be more inclined to believe a personal opinion (but not my personal opinion, obviously).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the law. What there is something wrong with is the hysterical and moronic knee-jerk response from the left on it, starting with this thread title and continuing with yours and others denial and resistance to basic facts, such as that the left heavily outweighs the right in US academia.

Should teachers and students also be required to divulge their sexual preferences?

First things first: saying 'sexual preference' is problematic and anti-LGBTQSS+, as Amy Coney Barrett found out. Your fellow leftists demand you do better.

Second: nobody is required to divulge anything, as nobody can be compelled to answer a specific question or any questions at all.

But it's interesting you should ask that. I work for a government department, and every year I am asked about my sexual orientation. Hell, I am asked for even more personal information than that, such as disability or long term health conditions. Do you think it is improper that I am asked?

And, as it happens, I am also back at university, and the university asked me my gender identity. Do you think that was improper?