Rape victim ordered to pay her abuser child support

[Toni]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

Yes, sometimes underage drinking occurs at bars (assuming it was a bar and not a restaurant). Did you see the quote? "if you can count to 18, I'll give you one drink."

That said, the vast majority of the time the supplier is from family and friends and a minority of the time a fake id is used. While we cannot say for sure that the bartender was a friend or looked the other way, it seems more likely that one of her girlfriends got some alcohol and gave it to her from the bar. ... because of those statistics that say most of the time it comes from family and friends, not a fake id.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say some kind of tactic was being used where one of the older friends is buying for others and the bartenders or management looks the other way due to the way Louisiana law works where the bar owner was not held to account, if he did not sell it directly to the minor. Moreover, the illegality in the drinking culture in Louisiana is so common that such tactics would not be unknown to bar goers or 30 year old men from Louisiana. In Louisiana, a good majority of high school seniors have had a drink and half of those drink regularly.

I find it hard to believe that a 30 year old man would be unaware that underage drinking and a culture that supports it exists with it all around him for decades and likely took part in it himself.

Make that the illegality in drinking culture in the USA. Laws vary from state to state. In some states, it is legal to serve minors in the home or presence and with the permission of their parent or guardian. So, yes your 17 year old can have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner. In other states, even that is not legal.

In every state in the US, minors are served alcohol in violation of whatever laws exist in that particular state. Violations can result in fines and even loss of drivers' licenses and occasionally, jail. In exactly ZERO states is the penalty for minor consumption stated to be rape. But of course that happens every single day in every single state and is rarely reported.

 

[Toni]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

LOTS of underage drinking at bars.

 

[bilby]

It's probably futile to point out at this juncture, but even if the victim is a pathological liar incapable of telling the truth under any circumstances, there's no resulting defence for a charge of statutory rape.

Indeed, it's in the nature of statutory rape laws that no defence that begins with "We had sex, but..." is possible, other than "We had sex but not until after the age of consent"; All other such statements are admissions of guilt.

"We had sex, but she told me she was 21"; "We had sex, but she really genuinely wanted us to"; "We had sex, but she was wearing a skimpy outfit" - All are admissions, not defences.

The ONLY viable defence against a statutory rape charge is "We did not have sex before the age of consent".

In this case, there is no doubt whatsoever that the defendant did have sex with the victim before she reached the age of consent. Nothing else can possibly be relevant to his guilt or innocence; It's an open and shut case.

Accusing the victim of lying, even if it could be shown to be 100%, undeniably, unquestionably true that she lied, does EXACTLY nothing to get the perpetrator off the hook.

It does, however, call into question the morality and motives of any person making this irrelevant accusation.

 

[Metaphor]

It's probably futile to point out at this juncture, but even if the victim is a pathological liar incapable of telling the truth under any circumstances, there's no resulting defence for a charge of statutory rape.

Indeed, it's in the nature of statutory rape laws that no defence that begins with "We had sex, but..." is possible, other than "We had sex but not until after the age of consent"; All other such statements are admissions of guilt.

"We had sex, but she told me she was 21"; "We had sex, but she really genuinely wanted us to"; "We had sex, but she was wearing a skimpy outfit" - All are admissions, not defences.

The ONLY viable defence against a statutory rape charge is "We did not have sex before the age of consent".

In this case, there is no doubt whatsoever that the defendant did have sex with the victim before she reached the age of consent. Nothing else can possibly be relevant to his guilt or innocence; It's an open and shut case.

...

Incorrect. It depends on the jurisdiction. "We had sex but it was reasonable for me to believe they were over the age of consent" is a defence in your own state of Queensland, called the honest and reasonable belief of age defense.

 

[Metaphor]

And funnily enough, there'd be no statutory rape case in Queensland for this scenario anyway, since the age of consent is 16.

 

[Jarhyn]

It's probably futile to point out at this juncture, but even if the victim is a pathological liar incapable of telling the truth under any circumstances, there's no resulting defence for a charge of statutory rape.

Indeed, it's in the nature of statutory rape laws that no defence that begins with "We had sex, but..." is possible, other than "We had sex but not until after the age of consent"; All other such statements are admissions of guilt.

"We had sex, but she told me she was 21"; "We had sex, but she really genuinely wanted us to"; "We had sex, but she was wearing a skimpy outfit" - All are admissions, not defences.

The ONLY viable defence against a statutory rape charge is "We did not have sex before the age of consent".

In this case, there is no doubt whatsoever that the defendant did have sex with the victim before she reached the age of consent. Nothing else can possibly be relevant to his guilt or innocence; It's an open and shut case.

Accusing the victim of lying, even if it could be shown to be 100%, undeniably, unquestionably true that she lied, does EXACTLY nothing to get the perpetrator off the hook.

It does, however, call into question the morality and motives of any person making this irrelevant accusation.

And of the judge who didn't call the bailiff in and have them escort the father to jail on rape charges following the hearing, to be arraigned and put on some kind of house arrest regardless.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

Yes, sometimes underage drinking occurs at bars (assuming it was a bar and not a restaurant). Did you see the quote? "if you can count to 18, I'll give you one drink."

That said, the vast majority of the time the supplier is from family and friends and a minority of the time a fake id is used. While we cannot say for sure that the bartender was a friend or looked the other way, it seems more likely that one of her girlfriends got some alcohol and gave it to her from the bar. ... because of those statistics that say most of the time it comes from family and friends, not a fake id.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say some kind of tactic was being used where one of the older friends is buying for others and the bartenders or management looks the other way due to the way Louisiana law works where the bar owner was not held to account, if he did not sell it directly to the minor. Moreover, the illegality in the drinking culture in Louisiana is so common that such tactics would not be unknown to bar goers or 30 year old men from Louisiana. In Louisiana, a good majority of high school seniors have had a drink and half of those drink regularly.

I find it hard to believe that a 30 year old man would be unaware that underage drinking and a culture that supports it exists with it all around him for decades and likely took part in it himself.

That's why I was questioning in the in a bar bit. The only underage drinking I ever saw was friends and family but it was never my thing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most 20-21 year old females are not looking for random pick ups and most think, however unconsciously, a guy who wants to have sex with th her must really really really like her. She’s more vulnerable. That’s part of it. But young adults are also eager to prove how adult they are and are more likely to feel some pressure to try to be more mature and sophisticated than they are—more cool. All the 30 year old has to do is to imply that she’s being a baby of just a kid and. There’s a really good chance she’ll ignore her own judgement and engage in behavior she’s not necessarily ready to engage in, to prove herself as ‘mature’ as he is. A 30 year old is more likely to just be interested in non-serious, casual relationships or one offs. Not that she’s likely to be ready to settle down but it’s more likely that to her sex means something different, implies some level of commitment. For a 30 year old man dating a 20-21 year old, she’s perfect: not really ready to settle down, not quite up to his level enough to seriously challenge him on his shit. He can feel in control and if things go wrong, it’s because she’s immature. Which is not necessarily the case—she’s usually less cynical and more idealistic which has its own appeal. He is on the cusp of maybe thinking he might be almost getting to be middle aged—but there he is, dating a hot young thing! He’s still got it!

So 20-21 year old females are children incapable of taking care of themselves?

Not what I said: I said that there is a power imbalance that should set off alarms for anyone who gives a rat's ass about the other person. Even if they say: Of course I'm fine. BTW, that's not gender specific. It's just much more common for 30 something year old guys to go after girls who are really too young for them.

Emotional maturity wise, the girl might be as mature or nearly so but in terms of sophistication, experience at being an adult? Not really. To tell the truth, having observed this up close and personal from multiple perspectives, I think that's part of the appeal.

You aren't rebutting my point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My wife appeared underage when we met.

Yes, but presumably you TALKED to her before you slept with her.

Given how little English she had at that time that wouldn't be a reliable measure. I had known her for several months at that point--our relationship is a case of proximity turning into a lot more.

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

For one thing, a 16 year old is much less likely to be looking for a hook up at a bar. A 30 year old man, sure.

I'm having a real hard time understanding WHY talking to someone for a few minutes and ascertaining their actual age is SUCH A HIGH BAR for a guy to leap in order to avoid statutory rape charges for himself and frankly a lot of trauma for her.

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

 

[laughing dog]

My wife appeared underage when we met.

Yes, but presumably you TALKED to her before you slept with her.

Given how little English she had at that time that wouldn't be a reliable measure. I had known her for several months at that point--our relationship is a case of proximity turning into a lot more.

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

For one thing, a 16 year old is much less likely to be looking for a hook up at a bar. A 30 year old man, sure.

I'm having a real hard time understanding WHY talking to someone for a few minutes and ascertaining their actual age is SUCH A HIGH BAR for a guy to leap in order to avoid statutory rape charges for himself and frankly a lot of trauma for her.

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

In what universe is that example applicable to actually talking to a person in ascertaining their age before having real life sex?

 

[Toni]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

Yes. Freqently.

 

[Toni]

Most 20-21 year old females are not looking for random pick ups and most think, however unconsciously, a guy who wants to have sex with th her must really really really like her. She’s more vulnerable. That’s part of it. But young adults are also eager to prove how adult they are and are more likely to feel some pressure to try to be more mature and sophisticated than they are—more cool. All the 30 year old has to do is to imply that she’s being a baby of just a kid and. There’s a really good chance she’ll ignore her own judgement and engage in behavior she’s not necessarily ready to engage in, to prove herself as ‘mature’ as he is. A 30 year old is more likely to just be interested in non-serious, casual relationships or one offs. Not that she’s likely to be ready to settle down but it’s more likely that to her sex means something different, implies some level of commitment. For a 30 year old man dating a 20-21 year old, she’s perfect: not really ready to settle down, not quite up to his level enough to seriously challenge him on his shit. He can feel in control and if things go wrong, it’s because she’s immature. Which is not necessarily the case—she’s usually less cynical and more idealistic which has its own appeal. He is on the cusp of maybe thinking he might be almost getting to be middle aged—but there he is, dating a hot young thing! He’s still got it!

So 20-21 year old females are children incapable of taking care of themselves?

Not what I said: I said that there is a power imbalance that should set off alarms for anyone who gives a rat's ass about the other person. Even if they say: Of course I'm fine. BTW, that's not gender specific. It's just much more common for 30 something year old guys to go after girls who are really too young for them.

Emotional maturity wise, the girl might be as mature or nearly so but in terms of sophistication, experience at being an adult? Not really. To tell the truth, having observed this up close and personal from multiple perspectives, I think that's part of the appeal.

You aren't rebutting my point.

I'm sorry you don't understand.

 

[Toni]

My wife appeared underage when we met.

Yes, but presumably you TALKED to her before you slept with her.

Given how little English she had at that time that wouldn't be a reliable measure. I had known her for several months at that point--our relationship is a case of proximity turning into a lot more.

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

For one thing, a 16 year old is much less likely to be looking for a hook up at a bar. A 30 year old man, sure.

I'm having a real hard time understanding WHY talking to someone for a few minutes and ascertaining their actual age is SUCH A HIGH BAR for a guy to leap in order to avoid statutory rape charges for himself and frankly a lot of trauma for her.

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

Online, it is very difficult to determine someone's age. Even if they tell you their age, you have no way of determining whether or not that is at all accurate.

One very blatant example: From time to time in my area, police conduct stings for people who are soliciting sex from underage girls. A police officer will be on line, and pretend to be a 15 year old girl and then they arrest the guy who shows up at the meet spot for soliciting underage girl. Even though the police officer was likely a 45 year old man.

 

[Jarhyn]

My wife appeared underage when we met.

Yes, but presumably you TALKED to her before you slept with her.

Given how little English she had at that time that wouldn't be a reliable measure. I had known her for several months at that point--our relationship is a case of proximity turning into a lot more.

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

For one thing, a 16 year old is much less likely to be looking for a hook up at a bar. A 30 year old man, sure.

I'm having a real hard time understanding WHY talking to someone for a few minutes and ascertaining their actual age is SUCH A HIGH BAR for a guy to leap in order to avoid statutory rape charges for himself and frankly a lot of trauma for her.

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

Online, it is very difficult to determine someone's age. Even if they tell you their age, you have no way of determining whether or not that is at all accurate.

One very blatant example: From time to time in my area, police conduct stings for people who are soliciting sex from underage girls. A police officer will be on line, and pretend to be a 15 year old girl and then they arrest the guy who shows up at the meet spot for soliciting underage girl. Even though the police officer was likely a 45 year old man.

In some ways, this is how pedophiles avoid cops. They target the "18 year olds" and "21 year olds" who readily tell people how old they are knowing that the cop needs to say an underage age to bust them.

When in reality the "adult" who "looks young for their age" is a child and they're a fucking child molester.

In some ways it's really easy to know someone's age online: if they are "18/21" they are 12-18.

If they were 18-21 they would actually be going places and getting laid.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

Yes. Freqently.

Today on things I had no idea would be controversial. Underaged drinking... in bars?!

 

[Toni]

My wife appeared underage when we met.

Yes, but presumably you TALKED to her before you slept with her.

Given how little English she had at that time that wouldn't be a reliable measure. I had known her for several months at that point--our relationship is a case of proximity turning into a lot more.

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

For one thing, a 16 year old is much less likely to be looking for a hook up at a bar. A 30 year old man, sure.

I'm having a real hard time understanding WHY talking to someone for a few minutes and ascertaining their actual age is SUCH A HIGH BAR for a guy to leap in order to avoid statutory rape charges for himself and frankly a lot of trauma for her.

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

Online, it is very difficult to determine someone's age. Even if they tell you their age, you have no way of determining whether or not that is at all accurate.

One very blatant example: From time to time in my area, police conduct stings for people who are soliciting sex from underage girls. A police officer will be on line, and pretend to be a 15 year old girl and then they arrest the guy who shows up at the meet spot for soliciting underage girl. Even though the police officer was likely a 45 year old man.

In some ways, this is how pedophiles avoid cops. They target the "18 year olds" and "21 year olds" who readily tell people how old they are knowing that the cop needs to say an underage age to bust them.

When in reality the "adult" who "looks young for their age" is a child and they're a fucking child molester.

In some ways it's really easy to know someone's age online: if they are "18/21" they are 12-18.

If they were 18-21 they would actually be going places and getting laid.

And yet, every sting in my area yields at least 3 men.

IRL, until I let my hair go gray, I was always taken for younger than my age. My husband grew a beard as soon as he left high school (easier to buy booze) and always looked older than his actual age. When I was heavily pregnant with our oldest, he used to get some really dirty looks when we were out walking around. Decades later, I showed some coworkers a picture of him at 22 and me at 21 and they asked if I was 14 in that picture and if that was my dad. In college, a friend told me I was a little confusing because I looked 14 or 15 but when I talked, I sounded 25. However as a college student, except for one time, I was never taken for anything other than a college aged person.

 

[Playball40]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

I was drinking in bars at 16. Drinking age was 18 and most bouncers didn't care to check ID. Now I'm old and don't drink at all.....guess I got it out of my system.

 

[Jarhyn]

My wife appeared underage when we met.

Yes, but presumably you TALKED to her before you slept with her.

Given how little English she had at that time that wouldn't be a reliable measure. I had known her for several months at that point--our relationship is a case of proximity turning into a lot more.

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

For one thing, a 16 year old is much less likely to be looking for a hook up at a bar. A 30 year old man, sure.

I'm having a real hard time understanding WHY talking to someone for a few minutes and ascertaining their actual age is SUCH A HIGH BAR for a guy to leap in order to avoid statutory rape charges for himself and frankly a lot of trauma for her.

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

Online, it is very difficult to determine someone's age. Even if they tell you their age, you have no way of determining whether or not that is at all accurate.

One very blatant example: From time to time in my area, police conduct stings for people who are soliciting sex from underage girls. A police officer will be on line, and pretend to be a 15 year old girl and then they arrest the guy who shows up at the meet spot for soliciting underage girl. Even though the police officer was likely a 45 year old man.

In some ways, this is how pedophiles avoid cops. They target the "18 year olds" and "21 year olds" who readily tell people how old they are knowing that the cop needs to say an underage age to bust them.

When in reality the "adult" who "looks young for their age" is a child and they're a fucking child molester.

In some ways it's really easy to know someone's age online: if they are "18/21" they are 12-18.

If they were 18-21 they would actually be going places and getting laid.

And yet, every sting in my area yields at least 3 men.

IRL, until I let my hair go gray, I was always taken for younger than my age. My husband grew a beard as soon as he left high school (easier to buy booze) and always looked older than his actual age. When I was heavily pregnant with our oldest, he used to get some really dirty looks when we were out walking around. Decades later, I showed some coworkers a picture of him at 22 and me at 21 and they asked if I was 14 in that picture and if that was my dad. In college, a friend told me I was a little confusing because I looked 14 or 15 but when I talked, I sounded 25. However as a college student, except for one time, I was never taken for anything other than a college aged person.

I looked... Maybe 12? when I was 18. It took me until 25 to look 18, and until 35 to look 25.

Even now people regularly peg me for upper 20's.

I was also sheltered as fuck by evangelicals so, i played the part I looked, for the most part, and the results of that were bad.

I totally get the pain of looking younger than age should implu are and also being younger than age should imply, while simultaneously having such a mental reach that if I had to, I could convince someone I was older than my age should imply, at least for a little while.

It was a very confusing time for me, and occasionally is, though I cope these days by recognizing and planning as best I can for the ways I know I'm going to keep being a dumbshit.

And at least I tend not to get carded these days.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

In what universe is that example applicable to actually talking to a person in ascertaining their age before having real life sex?

That wasn't a dating situation at all, just online conversation--but it was a lot more than 5 minutes worth and yet they got my age that radically wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You can't always tell.

Online: "How many grandkids do you have?". I was 17.

Online, it is very difficult to determine someone's age. Even if they tell you their age, you have no way of determining whether or not that is at all accurate.

One very blatant example: From time to time in my area, police conduct stings for people who are soliciting sex from underage girls. A police officer will be on line, and pretend to be a 15 year old girl and then they arrest the guy who shows up at the meet spot for soliciting underage girl. Even though the police officer was likely a 45 year old man.

The claim was you can tell by talking to them for 5 minutes. I've also been mistaken for 50% older even in person.