Discrimination -- the reality

[thebeave]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

 

[Gospel]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.

Unemployment rate in the United States in 2021, by ethnicity

 

[Gospel]

To those who believe my people are too busy eating welfare chicken and watermelons to seek employment I have breaking news for you from a collective of distinguished hood entrepreneurs.

 

[Politesse]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

I think they're pretty telling. If these people could demonstrate materially that whites are targets of institutional discrimination, they would present that data, rather than the much weaker argument that whites merely feel discriminated against (despite being wealthier, healthier, and better compensated than their non-white counterparts as measured by any objective criterion).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

You were asking why whites vote Democrat despite the discrimination against whites by Democrats. I gave you the answer, the impact of affirmative action on the opportunities available to white people in non-existent. You are complaining about technicalities with little impact on the real world. You are just Plessy v Ferguson in post form.

Trump strongholds are vast majority white, and affirmative action doesn't impact their communities at all. It is just more Southern Strategy bullshit from conservatives.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

I think they're pretty telling. If these people could demonstrate materially that whites are targets of institutional discrimination, they would present that data, rather than the much weaker argument that whites feel discriminated against despite being wealthier, healthier, and better compensated than their non-white counterparts as measured by any objective criterion.

Yeah, they'd have charts showing black employment was higher than white employment. Black college enrollment was higher than white college enrollment. Black pay was higher than white pay. Of course, none of this is actually happening. So, no charts... just feelings.

 

[Shadowy Man]

*Can anyone explain why three hosts of The View are named Joy, Sunny and Whoopi when those three are constantly bitter, argumentative and sour? Talk about being misnamed...

most parents name their children before getting to know them. However, for these three you can’t blame the parents because they named themselves.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

*Can anyone explain why three hosts of The View are named Joy, Sunny and Whoopi when those three are constantly bitter, argumentative and sour? Talk about being misnamed...

Yeah, they should just smile more.

 

[Rhea]

I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.

(Added audio)

 

[TomC]

To those who believe my people are too busy eating welfare chicken and watermelons to seek employment I have breaking news for you from a collective of distinguished hood entrepreneurs.

You mean drug dealing, welfare fraud, and preaching, right?

Tom

 

[TomC]

I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.

(Added audio)

View attachment 41135

I have an idea.
Expand the width of the bars to reflect the relative sizes of the demographics.
Then add the other part of each bar, the employed.

And you'll see that it's white people doing almost all the work around here.

Tom

 

[Metaphor]

BTW, "deprioritizing" the hiring of white men suggests that hiring white men was a priority and is not stopped.

Is this something you believe? That these companies had a written or unwritten personnel policy indicating they should hire white men as a priority?

It was the words used in the article. Why shouldn't it be believed?

I didn't say they shouldn't be believed. I said 'stop hiring white men' was not somehow contradicted by 'deprioritize hiring white men'.

Then why did you ask the question?

Because I wanted to know laughing dog's beliefs.

And what you said was "Is this something you believe? That these companies had a written or unwritten personnel policy indicating they should hire white men as a priority?" Your back-peddle is noted.

What? I haven't backpedalled.

 

[Metaphor]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

I think they're pretty telling. If these people could demonstrate materially that whites are targets of institutional discrimination, they would present that data, rather than the much weaker argument that whites merely feel discriminated against

The survey does not target any potential employees but hiring managers who do the hiring and know their organisation's policies. Nobody was asked if they felt discriminated against.

And whilst I bet if a college survey asked students of colour if they felt discriminated against, you would take such survey results seriously, what kind of evidence would actually convince you that there is institutional discrimination against white people in America? If hiring managers saying they've 'passed' on qualified white men because they need to hire a 'diverse' candidate isn't the evidence, what is the evidence? If Harvard admitting it uses race in its admissions (and from its own evidence appears to disfavour whites and especially Asians) does not count as institutional discrimination, what would?

 

[Politesse]

Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party?

Are you arguing that all or most employers in the country are Democrats? Why would a bunch general labor surveys, even if you were correctly interpreting them, indicate a "Democratic" position as opposed to just a business decision?

 

[Politesse]

The survey does not target any potential employees but hiring managers who do the hiring and know their organisation's policies. Nobody was asked if they felt discriminated against.

Good point! Even employees themselves, just going by these data, do not feel discriminated against. And though by the numbers something like half of hiring managers ought to be socially conservative in their sympathies, only a sixth feel that they have ever been asked to "deprioritize" hiring whites (which could mean a lot of things). Much smaller than the proportion which believe there is "reverse discrimination", interestingly. American hiring managers are convinced this is occurring, but less than a sixth report ever having felt personally pressured to consider race in hiring decisions. Why the disparity, I wonder? What convinces someone is in a position to know whether discrimination is happening, but has never witnessed it happening, to nevertheless believe that it is a common occurrence? Meanwhile, there's no evidence whatsoever that white men are struggling more than other demographic groupings, indeed quite the opposite is indicated by the data.

If there's a system of targeted discrimination against whites, it certainly doesn't seem to be a very effective one.

 

[laughing dog]

What is fascinating is that the survey does not control for many factors that influenced the responses. It is an example of social science research that LP denigrates.

 

[Metaphor]

The survey does not target any potential employees but hiring managers who do the hiring and know their organisation's policies. Nobody was asked if they felt discriminated against.

Good point! Even employees themselves, just going by these data, do not feel discriminated against.

Just going by these data? The hiring managers were not asked if they felt discriminated against.

If there's a system of targeted discrimination against whites, it certainly doesn't seem to be a very effective one.

Let's say an organisation did have a policy of favouring non-white candidates, and sometimes ruled out hiring a white man for a position. Do you think that would be a problematic practice, or an acceptable one?

 

[Politesse]

And whilst I bet if a college survey asked students of colour if they felt discriminated against, you would take such survey results seriously, what kind of evidence would actually convince you that there is institutional discrimination against white people in America? If hiring managers saying they've 'passed' on qualified white men because they need to hire a 'diverse' candidate isn't the evidence, what is the evidence? If Harvard admitting it uses race in its admissions (and from its own evidence appears to disfavour whites and especially Asians) does not count as institutional discrimination, what would?

This criticism would make more sense if I were, as you say, refusing to take the survey data in question seriously. Obviously, I am taking it seriously, if I am making a point which is completely contingent on that data in the post you are quoting.

Do you mean to say that I always agree with the personal perspectives of survey participants, in all cases except where I know the participant to have been white? This is not the case.

Why are you talking about Harvard and imagining a data set where many managers are asked to "pass on qualified white men", while accusing me of ignoring the data we're actually discussing? The data we're discussing was not generated by hiring managers at Harvard in particular, nor were participants asked whether they had ever been asked to "pass on qualified white men".

 

[Politesse]

Let's say an organisation did have a policy of favouring non-white candidates, and sometimes ruled out hiring a white man for a position. Do you think that would be a problematic practice, or an acceptable one?

"Ruling out" the hiring of a white man would be illegal, whether or not it were problematic. If people are concerned that they are being disallowed to hire whites, there is a clear legal avenue for them to seek redress. But we have yet to see any evidence that such a thing is in fact occurring. We have the subjective opinion of a strong minority of hiring managers that they have been asked to deprioritize the hiring of whites, which is not the same thing as confirming that there is moratorium on hiring whites, or even an official policy of deprioritization.

I would be concerned if there were tangible evidence of hiring discrimination, in a way that consistently hurt white applicants. But if all these policies are doing, whatveer they are, is slightly correcting an obvious and unfair imbalance in favor of white applicants, that isn't as concerning to me, know. As long as our entire economic system treats wage labor as an effective requirement for basic food and housing, our assumption must be that everyone has a right to seek and achieve employment, regardless of their skin color. A very clear implication of our national Constitution, which guarantees equal rights under the law to all parties. If that means that some businesses adopt policies or recommended practices with the effect prioritizing groups that otherwise have faced severe employment discrimination, I'm fine with that provided everyone can still seek and achieve employment.

 

[Metaphor]

And whilst I bet if a college survey asked students of colour if they felt discriminated against, you would take such survey results seriously, what kind of evidence would actually convince you that there is institutional discrimination against white people in America? If hiring managers saying they've 'passed' on qualified white men because they need to hire a 'diverse' candidate isn't the evidence, what is the evidence? If Harvard admitting it uses race in its admissions (and from its own evidence appears to disfavour whites and especially Asians) does not count as institutional discrimination, what would?

This criticism would make more sense if I were, as you say, refusing to take the survey data in question seriously. Obviously, I am taking it seriously, if I am making a point which is completely contingent on that data in the post you are quoting.

Your 'point'? Your point is not contingent on the data. The data from the survey could not possibly inform whether potential employees felt discriminated against by race.

Do you mean to say that I always agree with the personal perspectives of survey participants, in all cases except where I know the participant to have been white? This is not the case.

I am glad to hear it.

Why are you talking about Harvard and imagining a data set where many managers are asked to "pass on qualified white men", while accusing me of ignoring the data we're actually discussing? The data we're discussing was not generated by hiring managers at Harvard in particular, nor were participants asked whether they had ever been asked to "pass on qualified white men".

I am asking you about what you believe about institutional discrimination against white people in America.