Discrimination -- the reality

[Jimmy Higgins]

I find it vulgar to discriminate by race.

what do you propose should have been done to level the playing field for African Americans in an environment where the majority didn't want them to succeed?

Everyone needs to have equal opportunity to succeed. I can think of nothing better than capitalism for the job.

You did not make money with bitcoin because of affirmative action. That was freedom and free market capitalism. Build the best mouse trap or improve the most other lives and you will succeed beyond wildest dreams... even in this fucked up country. Capitalism represents non discrimation for everyone.

Gawd damn that's so naïve. Capitalism works until it doesn't. Capitalism is about making the best mouse trap... and then buying up any competition after that fact, to remain the only mousetrap in the business. Uber and Lyft have been bleeding money in order to not allow for any other competition, because in order to undersell Uber or Lyft you need to lose even MORE MONEY!

Capitalism is cholesterol, which has its purpose... until you have too much of it, and then it constricts the flow of money in the economy. Capitalism rewards the first one to get there. Like Facebook... who went public and then bought out the fledgling competition so they weren't replaced like MySpace or Friendster.

Nor can the government hope to fix the bad that happened yesterday. And even if you could trust them to do something good (which you can't), what would you have them do first? Fix the Indians that we fucked up first?

Dude, the Indians are across a couple oceans from here.

Ask the native Indians how good their government programs have helped them out?

"native Indians" Jebus!

Ask the children in some indigenous populations their opinion of schools verses the opinions of their Grandparents of the schools they attended?

You propose an interesting dilemma... claiming it can't be fixed... and using the evidence of it not being fixed in under a generation as your proof. The multi-generational and intentional fucking over of blacks and the intentional teaching indigenous that they'd never be better than remedial labor can't be fixed in a generation or two. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it... and for the generations of effort that it will take.

 

[Toni]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

Sounds like a lot of white privileged ignorant racism to me. And totally ignores the fact that most Americans descended from enslaved peoples are have European genes which this explanation suggests carry genes for higher intelligence. I guess increased melanin content prevents the expression of those superior genes….

I appreciate the response. I was more interested in Loren’s thoughts…

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

Sounds like a lot of white privileged ignorant racism to me. And totally ignores the fact that most Americans descended from enslaved peoples are have European genes which this explanation suggests carry genes for higher intelligence. I guess increased melanin content prevents the expression of those superior genes….

I appreciate the response. I was more interested in Loren’s thoughts…

To be blunt, it wasn't Europe's brightest and bestest who were immigrating to the US in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

Before Trump broke Poe, I'd think this was being a joke. Today, I'm uncertain.

 

[RVonse]

1 in 6 Hiring Managers Have Been Told to Stop Hiring White Men - ResumeBuilder.com

More than half of hiring managers whose companies have DEI initiatives in place believe their company practices “reverse discrimination”.

www.resumebuilder.com

We keep hearing the justice warriors saying that it's about ending discrimination. Why are the people doing the hiring being told to discriminate?

I completely agree with you on this.

But you are part of the problem when you vote democrat. The justice warriors are not found in the republican party.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

1 in 6 Hiring Managers Have Been Told to Stop Hiring White Men - ResumeBuilder.com

More than half of hiring managers whose companies have DEI initiatives in place believe their company practices “reverse discrimination”.

www.resumebuilder.com

We keep hearing the justice warriors saying that it's about ending discrimination. Why are the people doing the hiring being told to discriminate?

I completely agree with you on this.

But you are part of the problem when you vote democrat. The justice warriors are not found in the republican party.

Man, that sounds like Tiki Torch carrying "You will not replace us" stuff.

 

[Worldtraveller]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.

Unemployment rate in the United States in 2021, by ethnicity
View attachment 41134

You're just proving that black people are lazy. -Metaphor, probably.

 

[TomC]

Before Trump broke Poe, I'd think this was being a joke. Today, I'm uncertain.

Toni asked specifically for an explanation for the stupid.

Fact remains, my version is demonstrably true. Ugly, but ethics were very primitive. It wasn't just EuroColonialist Christian slavers commiting this global crime against humanity. Most of the human cargo was that made the Transatlantic Passage to slave markets in Charleston were enslaved by Africans.

Wokesters believing that it's all about white racism is just another form of racism.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Before Trump broke Poe, I'd think this was being a joke. Today, I'm uncertain.

Toni asked specifically for an explanation for the stupid. Fact remains, my version is demonstrably true. Ugly, but ethics were very primitive. It wasn't just EuroColonialist Christian slavers commiting this global crime against humanity. Most of the human cargo was that made the Transatlantic Passage to slave markets in Charleston were enslaved by Africans.

I count five sentences that appear to have no connection to each other.

First sentence, about Toni asking for an explanation on genetics.
Second sentence, presumption you are right.
Third sentence, something about ethics.
Fourth sentence, the Africans are partly to blame for slavery, not certain the relevance.
Fifth sentence, oh... the fourth and fifth sentences are related. Just not relevant to the question Toni asked... about GENETICS.

Just to be clear, she was asking for an explanation as if she were stupid. She wasn't asking for a poorly worded explanation.

Wokesters believing that it's all about white racism is just another form of racism.
Tom

Well, yeah, if you want to call people names and ascribe broad brushed ideologies you want to say they hold... I can see how you could think that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.

Unemployment rate in the United States in 2021, by ethnicity
View attachment 41134

You're just proving that black people are lazy. -Metaphor, probably.

Or cultural... which makes one ponder why alcoholism became "a thing" for the Indigenous in the United States... when it wasn't as much an issue before the assimilation.

 

[TomC]

To be blunt, it wasn't Europe's brightest and bestest who were immigrating to the US in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

Nobody ever said America is the descendants of the best and the brightest.

But the bulk of the population is the descendants of the Europeans who decided to flee European culture. We voluntarily(sorta) decided to leave Europe and begin life anew. Usually, it was because of some form of discrimination. Here, we could be the ones doing the discrimination instead of the victims.

People like to think that the Pilgrims came here for religious freedom. So they could escape persecution. It was quite the opposite. The Pilgrims came to Massachusetts in order to be free to be the persecutors rather than the victims of persecution.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor has found some remarks on-line and twisted them to serve his political agenda. Were enslaved uneducated blacks stooping in the fields less productive, on average, than free white laborers? Sure. Slightly. Did the semi-feudal Southern society inhibit some types of technological or organizational progress? You betcha!

But Metaphor writes "makes everyone poorer." Does he think Jefferson's slaves made Jefferson poorer?

Men are taller than women. That does not mean every man is taller than every woman. "Making everyone poorer" is a statement about the total wealth available. The total wealth available was less.

Disagree. Make everyone poorer would require no individual didn't lose money.

Okay 'made society poorer'. Or is that unacceptable too? Even though nobody seems to have a problem with 'men are taller than women'.

 

[Metaphor]

People on this forum and elsewhere often seem puzzled when, say, blacks or women vote Republican, they are voting against their self interests. Or as Sunny Hostin on The View* so eloquently puts it, "White women voting Republican is like roaches voting for Raid". Based on this survey in the OP, couldn't the same be said of white men (and white women)? Why would whites want to be voting Democrat when discriminating against white people seems to be embraced and normalized by the party? Or at least not outright condemned. Seems to me to be a losing strategy if the Democrat party wants to maintain power going forward. White people are still a substantial share of the US population, and want/need a fair chance at getting employment.

Simple, the discrimination is near non-existent and has such a negligible impact on our lives that your consistent insistence on how bad it is seems delusional.

I have never been refused a job, a loan, entrance into a college because I was white. I'm surrounded by lots of people who also white, that managed to become career professionals despite this alleged discrimination. They applied to colleges, got into the colleges, allowed to graduate. Got internships, applied for and received employment. All despite this alleged handicap... as if that discriminations is nearly non-existent and its impact on the opportunities available to white people is virtually nil.

Your talking about a Plessy v Ferguson world... I'm living in the actual one.

Nice anecdotes. Thanks for sharing. Here's mine. My grandpa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for 60 years and lived to be 95 when he got hit by a bus. So, therefore the "smoking causes lung cancer" thing seems waqy overblown to me.

How do you explain the survey results? The survey results are not de minimus as you seem to suggesting.

I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.

Unemployment rate in the United States in 2021, by ethnicity
View attachment 41134

You're just proving that black people are lazy. -Metaphor, probably.

Worldtraveller appears to recognise that the employment rate broken down by race is consistent with the hypothesis "white people are not discriminated against in the labour marlket" but is also consistent with a number of other scenarios.

I'm glad to see your mind is open.

 

[TomC]

Before Trump broke Poe, I'd think this was being a joke. Today, I'm uncertain.

Toni asked specifically for an explanation for the stupid. Fact remains, my version is demonstrably true. Ugly, but ethics were very primitive. It wasn't just EuroColonialist Christian slavers commiting this global crime against humanity. Most of the human cargo was that made the Transatlantic Passage to slave markets in Charleston were enslaved by Africans.

I count five sentences that appear to have no connection to each other.

First sentence, about Toni asking for an explanation on genetics.
Second sentence, presumption you are right.
Third sentence, something about ethics.
Fourth sentence, the Africans are partly to blame for slavery, not certain the relevance.
Fifth sentence, oh... the fourth and fifth sentences are related. Just not relevant to the question Toni asked... about GENETICS.

Just to be clear, she was asking for an explanation as if she were stupid. She wasn't asking for a poorly worded explanation.

Wokesters believing that it's all about white racism is just another form of racism.
Tom

Well, yeah, if you want to call people names and ascribe broad brushed ideologies you want to say they hold... I can see how you could think that.

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Explain to me how motivation affects genetics.

That's what I was responding to.
Motivation doesn't affect genetics. Explained so that a stupid person could understand that it's not relevant to the modern reality.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

To be blunt, it wasn't Europe's brightest and bestest who were immigrating to the US in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

Nobody ever said America is the descendants of the best and the brightest.

But the bulk of the population is the descendants of the Europeans who decided to flee European culture. We voluntarily(sorta) decided to leave Europe and begin life anew.

Because "we" weren't bright enough to make it in Europe?

People like to think that the Pilgrims came here for religious freedom. So they could escape persecution. It was quite the opposite. The Pilgrims came to Massachusetts in order to be free to be the persecutors rather than the victims of persecution.

Being from Plymouth, I'd be amiss if I didn't correct you about that you are mistaking the Puritans with Pilgrims.

Of course, success for the dumb Europeans would be possible because it wouldn't be illegal to learn how to read. And of course, subsequent generations would be able to take advantage of the GI Bill (unlike a certain population in the US).

But please, keep making it about "genetics". We haven't had a good eugenics movement in the US in over a century.

 

[Toni]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

Sounds like a lot of white privileged ignorant racism to me. And totally ignores the fact that most Americans descended from enslaved peoples are have European genes which this explanation suggests carry genes for higher intelligence. I guess increased melanin content prevents the expression of those superior genes….

I appreciate the response. I was more interested in Loren’s thoughts…

To be blunt, it wasn't Europe's brightest and bestest who were immigrating to the US in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

Really?

 

[Toni]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

Before Trump broke Poe, I'd think this was being a joke. Today, I'm uncertain.

I’m not.

 

[Toni]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

Before Trump broke Poe, I'd think this was being a joke. Today, I'm uncertain.

I grew up thinking that it was only my town, only my family who held such hateful, ignorant racist views.

I now understand how Trump got elected.

 

[laughing dog]

Explain that to me like I'm stupid.

Sure.

Most black Americans are the descendants of the Africans who weren't smart, motivated, or quick enough to escape being enslaved by other Africans.

Then the black slavers sold them to EuroColonialists who shipped them to the Americas.

That's the version for the stupid. Nothing about changing the genetics, it's just about the selection process.
Tom

Before Trump broke Poe, I'd think this was being a joke. Today, I'm uncertain.

I’m not.

For a surprisingly (and depressingly) large segment of the US population, it is not joke. The fascinating thing about that argument is the immigrants from Europe or Latin America descended from people who were not quick enough or smart enough to avoid "peon"/"serf" labor. So there really is no reason to expect a difference in "average ability" between the enslaved Africans brought to the US and the immigrants to the US other than their different races. Hmmmm.

 

[atrib]

I think they're pretty telling. If these people could demonstrate materially that whites are targets of institutional discrimination, they would present that data, rather than the much weaker argument that whites feel discriminated against despite being wealthier, healthier, and better compensated than their non-white counterparts as measured by any objective criterion.

Yeah, they'd have charts showing black employment was higher than white employment. Black college enrollment was higher than white college enrollment. Black pay was higher than white pay. Of course, none of this is actually happening. So, no charts... just feelings.

As always, the idea that disparate outcome is proof of discrimination.

I would love to hear your explanation as to why the black experience in America is so dramatically different from the white experience. I really would. I suspect you don't have a valid explanation, but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'll give you an example: Why is it that the proportion of black students enrolled in the undergrad engineering curriculum at Auburn University and Georgia Tech and Cal, Berkeley (where I went to school) is so miniscule compared to white students? In any given term, there were maybe 3 black students enrolled in the entire Civil Engineering department (all years), for example, in contrast to the roughly 160 to 200 white students. What could be causing this disparity, if not widespread, institutional discrimination against black people?