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Discrimination -- the reality

Toni

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If you’re saying that individuals who are well educated and have substantial financial means and an established profession or business decide to immigrate, they have an advantage over people who immigrated out of desperation—economic or to escape war or violence, yes, that’s correct. They have resources that many immigrants do not.

They also get more favorable visa status.

And yes, those advantages: wealth and education and a smoother path because of weath, education, and a favorable visa process do benefit their children and grandchildren born here.
It's not just resources. The ones that choose to move to a new country are the ones that have enough confidence in their skills that they can land on their feet in an alien environment. Why are you so unwilling to consider the possibility of genetics making a difference?
That sounds more like opportunity than genetics to me. And resources.
A lot more people have opportunities than actually take advantage of them. My wife gave three of her relatives the opportunity in the form of green card applications for them. One came for a while and went back, the other two didn't even come when their visa numbers came up. I am not at all surprised at this outcome (and in the case of the ones who didn't come I was almost certain they wouldn't)--none of them have the drive she does. They bemoan obstacles, my wife looks for how to deal with obstacles.
I understand that most people who immigrate voluntarily have motivation and determination to make a new life for themselves. It does not always work out that way—I’m thinking of two brothers who immigrated together. One was highly intelligent, positive, hard working, with a positive attitude even though America drive him as crazy as he loved America. The other brother? He might have been smart but he out so little effort into…anything that it was impossible to know. I don’t know why he came or if, upon arrival he was so overwhelmed by culture shock that he was unable to pull himself up and make something of himself. He was a serious drag on his brother for as long as I knew them.

I also admire and respect those who immigratecti make a better life for gemsekves or to make the most of opportunities. I know that takes a special kind of person.

How much stringer must one be to immigrate as a refugee? When you know you may never see anyone in your family again? That they might all be killed? When you lose everything? When you have no one to help you?

Those are incredibly strong people. Especially when you consider how frequently they are met with anger, suspicion, or by people ready to exploit them.

Now think about people whose ancestors were enslaved, whose grandparents were intimidated and threatened for wanting opportunities at education, at decent jobs, housing. To vote. Of course now laws do not explicitly forbid those things but they effectively do the same thing in place.
 

Shadowy Man

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We have one clear example of it at work: The Ashkenazi Jews. Keep putting them through situations where getting out in time confers a substantial survival advantage and combine that with mostly breeding within their group and it's not surprising they are a better part of a standard deviation above average.
Well, clearly the smarter Jews got out of Europe *before* the Holocaust.
 

Bomb#20

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Well, clearly the smarter Jews got out of Europe *before* the Holocaust.
"The Making of the Atomic Bomb" has a section describing how Leo Szilard left Germany the day before the Nazis closed the border to Jews, moved to England, and turned down a job offer in the U.S., saying he'd "stay in England until one year before the war, at which time I would shift my residence to New York City." His estimate of when the war would start came pretty close, too.
 

Shadowy Man

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Well, clearly the smarter Jews got out of Europe *before* the Holocaust.
"The Making of the Atomic Bomb" has a section describing how Leo Szilard left Germany the day before the Nazis closed the border to Jews, moved to England, and turned down a job offer in the U.S., saying he'd "stay in England until one year before the war, at which time I would shift my residence to New York City." His estimate of when the war would start came pretty close, too.
And if you’ve read that book you’ll be well aware how critical that one day was to the course of history.
 

Loren Pechtel

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We have one clear example of it at work: The Ashkenazi Jews. Keep putting them through situations where getting out in time confers a substantial survival advantage and combine that with mostly breeding within their group and it's not surprising they are a better part of a standard deviation above average.

Who did the original immigrants from Asia displace? No one as far as I can tell.

As you wrote, various populations in the Americas behaved much the same as Europeans (and Asians and Africans) did all of those years ago: invasions, wars, enslavement, etc. Although as near as I can tell, no other culture practiced slavery in such abominable ways as was carried out in North America.

That does not mean that it was ok for Europeans to come to the Americas and exterminate the people they found here. It does not mean that it was ok for them to purchase human beings as livestock and use them as such.
Conveniently ignoring the fact that there was more than one wave of immigrants from Asia.
You seem to be making the opposite e claim you did earlier: Ashkenazi Jews did not necessarily voluntarily immigrate—they often fled fir their lives. Upthread, you make the claim more than once that better people immigrate compared with those who come as refugeees, as the Ashkenazi Jews often did.

Here’s an observation: Groups of people who are allowed to maintain their culture, their language, religion, history, family structure: their way of life— tend to fair much better compared with groups whose families are broken apart, who must give up their language, their culture in order to survive. When these things are forcibly taken from them, often on pain of death, groups begin to fail even though individuals might not because individuals might assimilate sufficiently get along in the new culture and circumstances they find themselves.

Certain Asian cultures which are able to remain somewhat intact: language and at least some traditions are retained: this creates a cohesiveness and a strength that they can rely on.

Not all immigrant groups are so lucky to be able to live in neighborhoods where they are supported by others like them.
Try reading what I said and think about the situation.

The movements of the Ashkenazi Jews were voluntary. The survivors are the ones that saw the writing on the wall and chose to get out of dodge.
 

Loren Pechtel

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We have one clear example of it at work: The Ashkenazi Jews. Keep putting them through situations where getting out in time confers a substantial survival advantage and combine that with mostly breeding within their group and it's not surprising they are a better part of a standard deviation above average.
Well, clearly the smarter Jews got out of Europe *before* the Holocaust.
I don't think you meant to be serious in saying that but you're correct anyway--it's exactly what I'm talking about. The more capable people are more likely to get out before the slaughter started. It selects for the ability to see that things are falling apart and intelligence is a factor in that.
 

thebeave

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I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.


(Added audio)

View attachment 41135
I'm not sure exactly what your point is with this, but it sounds like what you're suggesting with this chart is that its OK to racially discriminate against (only?) white people because...unemployment rate? I should double check the Constitution and all the civil rights legislation out there to see if this is a legal and rational reason for racial discrimination, but I'm pretty sure its not.

Earlier this year, in a thread on DEI, you made a lot of statements to the "DEI skeptics" out there. Here is some of what you said then:

From post #13:
I’m not in HR. I’ve been working in Engineering for over 3 decades. (Beyond that I’ve also worked in banking and municipal government.) I didn’t say I was in HR, I said I was a “hiring manager”. Meaning I manage an engineering team, and I hire people. Engineers mostly, but occasionally math people, physics or chemists. And I don’t let HR force me to “check boxes.” I hire based on value to the team.
From post #15:
Experience with these positions for actual college students (including my white son) shows a far more valuable picture. These “non-instructional staff” have been the people who have helped my kids as they navigate classes, class selection, internship pursuit, and connections to the job market. Including for my white son.

What would a white person who is interviewing with you (a hiring manager) for a job at your company think if they knew you had this mocking and disdainful attitude about them,? Do you think they would feel they are getting a fair shot at employment at your company? What would your company management think if they found out about this post of yours, knowing you are responsible for hiring their engineering workforce? And what would your job seeking white son think and say about this?
 

Bomb#20

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I'm not sure exactly what your point is with this, but it sounds like what you're suggesting with this chart is that its OK to racially discriminate against (only?) white people because...unemployment rate? I should double check the Constitution and all the civil rights legislation out there to see if this is a legal and rational reason for racial discrimination, but I'm pretty sure its not.
I'm not sure exactly what her point is either; but her point appears to be that when a white person is denied a job on account of the color of her skin, if she cries "Help, I'm being oppressed" then she's being a whiny little snowflake, because the discrimination didn't oppress her very much, because she still got 95.3% of a job.
 

laughing dog

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I'm not sure exactly what your point is with this, but it sounds like what you're suggesting with this chart is that its OK to racially discriminate against (only?) white people because...unemployment rate? I should double check the Constitution and all the civil rights legislation out there to see if this is a legal and rational reason for racial discrimination, but I'm pretty sure its not.
I'm not sure exactly what her point is either; but her point appears to be that when a white person is denied a job on account of the color of her skin, if she cries "Help, I'm being oppressed" then she's being a whiny little snowflake, because the discrimination didn't oppress her very much, because she still got 95.3% of a job.
These admittedly ignorance driven speculations about a point reveals more about the speculators than about the content of the post in question.
 

Rhea

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I'll just leave this bit of irrelevant information here.


(Added audio)

View attachment 41135
I'm not sure exactly what your point is with this, but it sounds like what you're suggesting with this chart is that its OK to racially discriminate against (only?) white people because...unemployment rate?

Wut? No, you have missed the point. That is not at all what that post suggests.

It suggests that not everyone who whines about oppression is being oppressed.


I should double check the Constitution and all the civil rights legislation out there to see if this is a legal and rational reason for racial discrimination, but I'm pretty sure its not.

Earlier this year, in a thread on DEI, you made a lot of statements to the "DEI skeptics" out there. Here is some of what you said then:

From post #13:
I’m not in HR. I’ve been working in Engineering for over 3 decades. (Beyond that I’ve also worked in banking and municipal government.) I didn’t say I was in HR, I said I was a “hiring manager”. Meaning I manage an engineering team, and I hire people. Engineers mostly, but occasionally math people, physics or chemists. And I don’t let HR force me to “check boxes.” I hire based on value to the team.
From post #15:
Experience with these positions for actual college students (including my white son) shows a far more valuable picture. These “non-instructional staff” have been the people who have helped my kids as they navigate classes, class selection, internship pursuit, and connections to the job market. Including for my white son.

What would a white person who is interviewing with you (a hiring manager) for a job at your company think if they knew you had this mocking and disdainful attitude about them,?
How did you get “mocking and disdainful” out of “valuable to the team?”
What are you talking about?

Do you think they would feel they are getting a fair shot at employment at your company? What would your company management think if they found out about this post of yours, knowing you are responsible for hiring their engineering workforce?

That I hire people based on their value to the team? Is there a fairer shot? Would my management support that? Wouldn’t you support your hiring managers choosing people based on their value to the team?


Also - are you threatening to doxx me?

And what would your job seeking white son think and say about this?
About the fact that DEI resources at the college were helping him? I expect he’d say, “yeah, they do.”

You post does not make any sense, it’s like you read the words but are answering some strawman that only you can see.
 

Bomb#20

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How did you get “mocking and disdainful” out of “valuable to the team?”
What are you talking about?
He didn't get it out of “valuable to the team”; he got it out of "Help! I'm being oppressed!1!".
 
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