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Colorado club shooter is non-binary, CNN repeatedly misgenders them.

That is why pronoun usage in English was based solely on sex.
Key word here is "was".
So then you admit your characterisation of the history of pronoun usage for humans is false.

pronouns for humans were based on sex.
Key word here is "we're".
I am talking about historical usage.

We haven't had the conversation about whether we should or could jettison historical usage for a top-down, prescribed approach.

Humans decided that those that society agreed were males get 'he', and females get 'she'.
Key word here is "decided".
Of course they did.

your moral sensibility that it should have referred to gender identity all along is an expression of your moral opinion, not a fact about historical usage.
Key word here is "should have".
My "moral sensibility" here is based on people in the here and now getting along with each other. Historical usage doesn't matter to my moral sensibility any more than historical science concerning race or geography.
It just doesn't.
Tom
Whether pronoun usage for humans should be changed to refer to gender identity is a matter of debate. It is not a given.

For example, progressive white people and academic Latinos have been trying to shove 'Latinx' down the throats of Latino people for years. They do it because upholding gender ideology is a more important value to them than avoiding imposing an obscene and open case of language imperialism. An elite cabal can tray and decide how language evolves, and they might even succeed, but that isn't usually how language evolves.
 
I think it is rather cavalier to proclaim a binary when there are such messy shades of grey.

Sex is binary, Jarhyn. There are two, and only two, gamete types in humans. There is no third reproductive strategy.

People said the same bullshit you did, but about homosexuals, claiming that it was not possible for someone to be born gay, too,

It is impossible. Babies don't have a sexual orientation.


No you should not. The context in the title gives singular "shooter", so anyone whom the public education system has not utterly failed should be fine.

No. The pronoun has introduced ambiguities. For example, some news stories are ambiguous about whether 'they' refers to the shooter alone, or the shooter and his legal team.
 
There is no third reproductive strategy
And "bald is not a hair style..."

My own reproductive strategy is indirect and information based.

Your reproductive strategy is more likely "won't."

It is impossible. Babies don't have a sexual orientation.
They have the seeds of one. As has been observed, developmental exposures in the womb (also to autoimmune situations) are comorbid with homosexuality, implying a gestational stage to the development of sexuality.

Finally, this is again separate from any structures in the brain and body which differentiate from adolescent hormone exposure
Further, it has been observed that some folks will find changes arise of their sexuality which are dependent on their hormone exposure in adulthood.

The pronoun has introduced ambiguities.
See my comments about reading level.
 
There is no third reproductive strategy

They have the seeds of one. As has been observed, developmental exposures in the womb (also to autoimmune situations) are comorbid with homosexuality, implying a gestational stage to the development of sexuality.

True. But they're not born gay, or straight. They're just not.

The pronoun has introduced ambiguities.

Sure Jan.
 
But they're not born gay, or straight. They're just not.
A bold statement with no basis of fact behind it gets you nowhere.
 
So then you admit your characterisation of the history of pronoun usage for humans is false.
Nope. You're managing to misunderstand.
I'm saying I don't care about it enough to learn about ancient language usage.
I am talking about historical usage.
Which is utterly and completely irrelevant to my point, which is entirely about the modern situation and that language changes to fit.

We haven't had the conversation about whether we should or could jettison historical usage for a top-down, prescribed approach.
Speaking for myself, there's nothing "top-down" about it. I prefer that people recognize other people's personhood and personal preferences concerning things as unimportant as pronouns in casual conversation. I flat out don't care if somebody is sexed male. If they go by the name Betsy I'm gonna use feminine gendered pronouns unless they express a preference for male pronouns.

I just don't care enough about ancient speech patterns to let them get in the way of my present concerns and interests.

Whether pronoun usage for humans should be changed to refer to gender identity is a matter of debate. It is not a given.

Sorry dude, I don't care much about your pearl clutching about changes to polite language norms. I don't care what linguists say people used to take for granted in the way of pronoun usage. I'll do whatever I damn well please. That is use whatever pronouns or gendered references another human prefers, regardless of sex or language precedents.

Bless your Heart.*

Tom

* in case you don't understand modern American English well enough to grasp what that means @southernhybrid could better explain it, because she's a lot nicer than I am
 
But they're not born gay, or straight. They're just not.
A bold statement with no basis of fact behind it gets you nowhere.
Sure Jan.

Some babies are born straight. They have decided they know which sex they are sexually attracted to. Others are born gay. They too have decided.

Honestly there's an upper limit to the nonsense you can put out Jarhyn. At least, I hope there's an upper limit.
 
Nope. You're managing to misunderstand.
I'm saying I don't care about it enough to learn about ancient language usage.

You sure claim a lot of things about it for somebody who does 'not care'.

Which is utterly and completely irrelevant to my point, which is entirely about the modern situation and that language changes to fit.

I am perfectly happy to talk about the modern situation, as long as I've corrected the record on your misunderstanding of the historical situation.


Speaking for myself, there's nothing "top-down" about it. I prefer that people recognize other people's personhood

You have advanced the stasis of the argument without both sides accepting premises. I do not accept your premise that pronouns that correspond to sex fail to acknowledge 'personhood'.


and personal preferences concerning things as unimportant as pronouns in casual conversation. I flat out don't care if somebody is sexed male. If they go by the name Betsy I'm gonna use feminine gendered pronouns unless they express a preference for male pronouns.

That's your choice. I'm not the boss of you.

Sorry dude, I don't care much about your pearl clutching about changes to polite language norms. I don't care what linguists say people used to take for granted in the way of pronoun usage. I'll do whatever I damn well please. That is use whatever pronouns or gendered references another human prefers, regardless of sex or language precedents.

You do you. I've not suggested otherwise. I want others to stop telling me what to say, under threat of government violence.
 
But they're not born gay, or straight. They're just not.
A bold statement with no basis of fact behind it gets you nowhere.
Sure Jan.

Some babies are born straight. They have decided they know which sex they are sexually attracted to. Others are born gay. They too have decided.

Honestly there's an upper limit to the nonsense you can put out Jarhyn. At least, I hope there's an upper limit.
Everyone is born primed with a template or heuristic of who they will eventually be sexually attracted to.

It isn't about something they decide, it's about something they are intrinsically, and that is generally something they are well on their way to becoming even at birth.

In that way, some babies are born straight, some are born gay, some are born bisexual some are born asexual. Some will have sexuality grow into them as a function of their born predelictions and experience.

The only deciding they get to do about that is generally whether they will accept the sexuality they find that they have or whether they fight it in a manner most unhealthy.
 
It isn't about something they decide, it's about something they are intrinsically, and that is generally something they are well on their way to becoming even at birth.

I wasn't born 6'8".
People who are 6'8" though were born with most of what leads them to the becoming of it, just as most people are born with most of what it will take to develop within a standard deviation of the bimodal distribution's modes.

You were born with the growth plate thickness, bone mass, nutrient distribution that you had, and while ingredients do not alone make a cake, you get the cake that is produced with the ingredients you have.

Things can change during the mixing and the baking, as it were. Maybe some ingredients spill out, maybe some strange ingredients spill in.

Biology is messy, but a lot of stuff starts early, like genitals, gender identity, and sexuality.

As it is, I can identify individuals who shared my gender identity and sexuality who existed over a thousand years ago, on various continents.

It isn't about something they decide, it's about something they are intrinsically, and that is generally something they are well on their way to becoming even at birth.

I wasn't born 6'8".
Did you decide to be 6'8"?
Maybe wearing platforms...
 
People who are 6'8" though were born with most of what leads them to the becoming of it, just as most people are born with most of what it will take to develop within a standard deviation of the bimodal distribution's modes.

I was not born gay.

I became pre-gay at a young age. Anybody who knows an effeminate male child knows what pre-gay looks like.

But even if my genetics and environment predestined me, it still does not make sense to say I was born a particular sexual orientation, and I think it is unhelpful and wrong to frame it that way.
 
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My "moral sensibility" here is based on people in the here and now getting along with each other.
A lot of folks in the 16th and 17th centuries justified the widespread religious uniformity laws based on people getting along with each other. The Huguenots might be able to tell you a thing or two about how well that strategy worked out. Letting all the people do their own thing tends to be better at helping people get along with each other.
 
I was not born gay.

How can you state that do confidently?

I'm not claiming to know anything important. But I can see a ton of different influences that might result in you identifying as a homosexual male, when they all come together to result in you the individual.
Genetics
Epigenetics
Chemical environment
Early childhood experiences
Later experiences

I dunno. I'm certain that nobody else does either.
Same with trans. I've no idea why anyone would want to change their sex identity(gender). That makes no sense to me, except possibly females preferring to be men. Being a man is way better. I do get that part, sorta.

Somethings happened that resulted in you(and me) being abnormal, concerning orientation. I tried very hard to be normal, it just didn't work.

Same thing with trans people. I don't get it any better than my dad understood my homosexual tendencies. He got over it. Because he was a decent human being.
Tom
 
I was not born gay.

How can you state that do confidently?
It's easy to state that confidently. No baby has a sexual orientation.


I'm not claiming to know anything important. But I can see a ton of different influences that might result in you identifying as a homosexual male, when they all come together to result in you the individual.
Genetics
Epigenetics
Chemical environment
Early childhood experiences
Later experiences

I dunno. I'm certain that nobody else does either.
Same with trans. I've no idea why anyone would want to change their sex identity(gender). That makes no sense to me, except possibly females preferring to be men. Being a man is way better. I do get that part, sorta.

Somethings happened that resulted in you(and me) being abnormal, concerning orientation. I tried very hard to be normal, it just didn't work.

Same thing with trans people. I don't get it any better than my dad understood my homosexual tendencies. He got over it. Because he was a decent human being.
Tom
I did not say I had any choice in being gay. In fact, I do not believe in libertarian free will.

I am also undecided about whether it was predestined, given my genetics. I do not know if in a different environment, I would have been not gay. It doesn't matter though. Babies do not have a sexual orientation. I was not born gay, nor was anyone, ever.
 
It's easy to state that confidently. No baby has a sexual orientation.

How can you state that confidently?
Babies don't express an orientation, but that's not the same as don't have one.
Tom
 
People who are 6'8" though were born with most of what leads them to the becoming of it, just as most people are born with most of what it will take to develop within a standard deviation of the bimodal distribution's modes.

I was not born gay.

I became pre-gay at a young age. Anybody who knows an effeminate male child knows what pre-gay looks like.

But even if my genetics and environment predestined me, it still does not make sense to say I was born a particular sexual orientation, and I think it is unhelpful and wrong to frame it that way.
It is supremely dishonest to say that my position is specifically "everyone is born with an orientation".

This is my position: which you failed to quote when you straw-manned it:
some babies are born straight, some are born gay, some are born bisexual some are born asexual. Some will have sexuality grow into them as a function of their born predelictions and experience.

As can be seen, I expect that even at the time of birth, some are going to be gay some are going to be straight, and some may be more malleable according to their nurtures.

At any rate the point is that it's not really a decision and is largely dependent on structures of the brain that form in particular ways, as a result of particular developmental differentiations in utero.

The same is in fact true of trans people, with aspects of gender identity becoming apparent at very young ages, and indicating that discordance is observed as a statistically significant event even at young ages.

The leading thoughts on this is that it has something to do with how the brain develops. It's not something that people choose, though I do accept it is something that folks will occasionally attempt to claim in bad faith. My thought is to take all claims in such faith seriously, and allow the consequences of doing so be visible for all to see.

This person I would see thrown in a prison claiming to be a woman, with many people who identify as men, because they will be there for the sole reason that this is a place not specifically for "men" but for those who do or may be able to ejaculate sperms, and who do or may have a large amount of testosterone.

If they were willing to castrate themselves such as to not produce sperms or steroids, then I would not see the issue with them being housed with others who produce neither sperm nor steroids.

It's a long ways to go, though, in bad faith.

More, I expect their claim will lead to unwanted consequences for claiming to be a woman who will inevitably be housed with a supermajority of criminal men, some of which are most assuredly gay, and some of which will not take kindly to someone who murdered a bunch of gay people and treats LGBT issues flippantly enough to use clear bad faith...
 
It's easy to state that confidently. No baby has a sexual orientation.

How can you state that confidently?
Babies don't express an orientation, but that's not the same as don't have one.
Tom
Because babies can barely even see. They have barely any thoughts except 'milk'. Babies do not have a complex internal life.

I don't want to get into this. It's off topic. If you want to make the case that babies have a sexual orientation, be my guest.
 
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