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National Debt And Stuff

Cheerful Charlie

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As we will soon be starting a new Congress in a few weeks, we will soon be hearing a lot of BS. So it is a good time to start with a few facts.

Our National Debt is now $30.93 trillion.
Interest on the National Debt is $103 billion a year. At that rate, $412 billion over a president's 4 year term. That buys us nothing. It subsidizes the big tax breaks for the wealthy and big business.

According to The conservative Manhatten Institute's Brian Reidel, Trump added $ 7.8 trillion to our national debt. A bit over one fourth of our current National Debt. We will soon see newly awakened GOP deficit hawks trying to blame anybody but Trump and the GOP for that $7.8 trillion added to thee debt. And the only cure is to slash safety net spending.

 
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Trump added $ 7.8 trillion to our national debt. A bit over one fourth of our current National Debt.
Nothing happen in March 2020. Nothing.

A lot of Trumptards agree with you.

My prediction is that by April we will be laughing going, "Remember how everyone panicked over the coronavirus because the media started fear mongering?"

The flu reinvented itself after 100 years and now everyone's in a panic because of the media. When I was younger, if you didn't have chicken pox, your parents would invent a friend over who had it so you could get it and be done with it. This isolation nonsense is frustrating. I wish I could tell everyone, "Stop getting your info from the media! They are designed to fear monger!"

THink about it logically. They are telling bars, restaurants, schools to close. Sports have been cancelled. But places like 711, convenience stores and supermarkets? Still open no problem. Why is this? Either it's a problem or it's not. i suppose they are sending a message that, "you can get the virus at a bar or a restaurant but you can't get it form convenience stores or supermarkets!"

Seriously though, this is nothing new when it comes to Reich wingers. They did the same thing when Bush Jnr was in power, blaming the consequences of all his shitty economic decisions on 9/11. And just like then, blaming covid for Trump's pathetic economic performance is complete horseshit.

Economists agree that we needed massive deficit spending during the COVID-19 crisis to ward off an economic cataclysm, but federal finances under Trump had become dire even before the pandemic. That happened even though the economy was booming and unemployment was at historically low levels. By the Trump administration’s own description, the pre-pandemic national debt level was already a “crisis” and a “grave threat.”

The combination of Trump’s 2017 tax cut and the lack of any serious spending restraint helped both the deficit and the debt soar. So when the once-in-a-lifetime viral disaster slammed our country and we threw more than $3 trillion into COVID-19-related stimulus, there was no longer any margin for error.
 
Trump added $ 7.8 trillion to our national debt. A bit over one fourth of our current National Debt.
Nothing happen in March 2020. Nothing.

Trump added $ 7.8 trillion to our national debt. A bit over one fourth of our current National Debt.
Nothing happen in March 2020. Nothing.

A lot of Trumptards agree with you.

My prediction is that by April we will be laughing going, "Remember how everyone panicked over the coronavirus because the media started fear mongering?"

The flu reinvented itself after 100 years and now everyone's in a panic because of the media. When I was younger, if you didn't have chicken pox, your parents would invent a friend over who had it so you could get it and be done with it. This isolation nonsense is frustrating. I wish I could tell everyone, "Stop getting your info from the media! They are designed to fear monger!"

THink about it logically. They are telling bars, restaurants, schools to close. Sports have been cancelled. But places like 711, convenience stores and supermarkets? Still open no problem. Why is this? Either it's a problem or it's not. i suppose they are sending a message that, "you can get the virus at a bar or a restaurant but you can't get it form convenience stores or supermarkets!"

Seriously though, this is nothing new when it comes to Reich wingers. They did the same thing when Bush Jnr was in power, blaming the consequences of all his shitty economic decisions on 9/11. And just like then, blaming covid for Trump's pathetic economic performance is complete horseshit.

Economists agree that we needed massive deficit spending during the COVID-19 crisis to ward off an economic cataclysm, but federal finances under Trump had become dire even before the pandemic. That happened even though the economy was booming and unemployment was at historically low levels. By the Trump administration’s own description, the pre-pandemic national debt level was already a “crisis” and a “grave threat.”

The combination of Trump’s 2017 tax cut and the lack of any serious spending restraint helped both the deficit and the debt soar. So when the once-in-a-lifetime viral disaster slammed our country and we threw more than $3 trillion into COVID-19-related stimulus, there was no longer any margin for error.
Seriously, Oleg...
cold.jpg
 
Yes, covid was costly. Trump blew that by lying to America about how dangerous it was going to be. And on top of that, the crash of the economy cost tax income to the U.S. to take a big hit. Then on top of that a huge set of tax cuts for the rich and big businesses. Now we have price gouging from big business. How to deal with this?
Slash Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Veterans programs and more. Bill Clinton raised taxes on the rich and balanced the budget. But all Republicans in Congress have signed Grover Norquist's foolish pledge to never raise taxes for any reason. Pass a windfall tax on price gouging big businesses. "No, no, no!" Shriek the Republicans. Pass a minute tax on high volume automated stock transactions? "No, no, no!" Shriek the Republicans. Let the deficits skyrocket. Starve the beast.

"All I want to do is downsize government small enough to drag it off to a bath tub and drown it."
- Grover Norquist

The GOP is gaming us to do exactly that. The GOP has no intention of dealing with these massive deficits or allowing the Democrats from successfully doing so.
 
Yes, covid was costly.
More costly than necessary. The fourth round of stimulus wasn't needed. Neither was it necessary to continue the expanded unemployment ($600/week on top of regular unemployment), expanded child tax credit ($300-$360/month and child, something Biden and the Dems wanted to make permanent) and other COVID-motivated spending for as long as they were, long after the economy was reopened. All that unnecessary spending added to the debt and was also highly inflationary, pushing inflation almost into double digit territory.
 
Trump's response to covid caused a massive deficit. And it was entirely on him. If you deny that, you're just dishonest.
Nobody (well maybe Oleg) is saying that Trump did not screw up most of the COVID response - although there were bright parts like Operation Warp Speed.
However, COVID spending (including poorly designed programs like PPP loans and expanded unemployment that paid more than many jobs) was bipartisan. Then Biden took over in January 2021 and Dems had control of both legislative chambers. Everything that came after that is on them, not Trump. Biden and the Dem controlled House and Senate decided to keep these COVID programs long after the economy opened up. That not only added to the debt but also contributed to inflation - more money (due to all the government largess) chasing fewer goods (due to supply crunch) ==> massive inflation.
Biden also let Corie Bush et al manipulate him into extending the eviction moratorium (aka "rent is optional" program) even though he knew that he was overstepping executive authority.

Trump made mistakes re COVID response, but Biden and the Dems did too. It is partisan hypocrisy to harp on one but refuse to acknowledge the other.
 
Trump made mistakes re COVID response, but Biden and the Dems did too. It is partisan hypocrisy to harp on one but refuse to acknowledge the other.
There is no way the fuckups involved are even remotely equivalent. I don't give a shit about a broken brake light when the fucking car is on fire.

And you are ignoring what the article I supplied pointed out - Trump's bullshit tax cut and his administration insistence for profligate spending (and before you whatabout Biden is nowhere near the level of Trump) guaranteed Trump would blow out national debt. Covid was just a powerup to Trump's combo.
 
I think we can all agree that the Trump-QOPAnon tax cuts and the Biden-Progressive stimulus BOTH contributed to the rising Treasury debt. But inflation is less clear-cut.

. . . Biden and the Dem controlled House and Senate decided to keep these COVID programs long after the economy opened up. That not only added to the debt but also contributed to inflation - more money (due to all the government largess) chasing fewer goods (due to supply crunch) ==> massive inflation.
... All that unnecessary spending [was] highly inflationary, pushing inflation almost into double digit territory.

Oh my. Here we go again.

I think we finally got Derec to concede that events and trends can have multiple causes, but he still argues as though the Democratic stimulus was by far the major cause of inflation. But professional economists generally do NOT agree with this. Sure, some from the Alabama or Chicago schools, or PhDs pimped by the QOPAnon set will agree with Derec. But mainstream economists will mostly express uncertainty while emphasizing low interest rates as probably the single biggest cause. For over a decade real interest rates, even in the USA, were negative. Europe even had unprecedented negative nominal rates (and Japan still does). It was negative real interest rates in the 1970s that led to stagflation and the election of Ronald Reagan.

Increased money supply is also cited as a cause, but much of the new money from the stimulus ended up uselessly in Excess Reserve accounts. The velocity of M2 money has been falling steadily, and is now about half the value it had during the late 1990's.

This insistence that Biden and AOC are to blame for the inflation is just more right-wing bullshit. Economists aren't sure about the inflation, but are most likely to point to monetary policies, not fiscal.

Germany experienced 10% inflation, U.K. 11% and Italy 12% while U.S. was getting only 7%. Yet of these countries it is the U.S. that has by far the largest deficit as a percent of GDP. I've enlarged this fact in hopes Derec will read it, think about what it means, and finally stop spinning his ill-informed partisan narrative.
 
Yes, covid was costly.
More costly than necessary. The fourth round of stimulus wasn't needed. Neither was it necessary to continue the expanded unemployment ($600/week on top of regular unemployment), expanded child tax credit ($300-$360/month and child, something Biden and the Dems wanted to make permanent) and other COVID-motivated spending for as long as they were, long after the economy was reopened. All that unnecessary spending added to the debt and was also highly inflationary, pushing inflation almost into double digit territory.
Thank you for your unsupported opinion. "Pushing inflation into almost double digit territory" is pretty much a meaningless statement due to the lack of quantification of the different effects. For example, if the "unneccesary" policies you list only added 2 tenths of a percent to inflation compared to the 8 percent from supply-chain issues, then it seems your point is nugatory.

It is partisan hypocrisy to harp on one but refuse to acknowledge the other.
It depends. It is not hypocrisy to point out the hypocrisy of the GOP for expanding deficit spending when they carry on about the evils of deficit spending and increasing the deficit. It is hypocrisy to condemn deficit spending only when the other side does it.
 
Seriously, Oleg...
You're all well aware that COVID caused a massive deficit. If you deny that, then you're just dishonest.
Yes, it did cause a massive deficit. It also caused massive death. Those two facts are not unrelated. Both were caused in large part by the incompetence and selfish stupidity of Trump and his minions.
 
Why Congress should vote NO on raising the debt ceiling


Is the national debt too high? Are the annual deficits too high?

If the answer is "yes," then the next question is: What can be done to stop it from going ever higher?

And there's only one answer (at this time), and that is: a NO vote on raising the debt ceiling. Because there is no other mechanism to stop the increasing debt.

If this is a bad way to limit the debt, then we must find another way to limit it. What is that other way? Whatever other means there might be, it's obvious that it's not going to happen any time soon, probably not for many years, as long as the Reds and Blues keep bashing each other and living in their separate realities. Which they will probably continue to do. Not even the separate factions WITHIN each party can agree on this.

So, as long as you think the national debt is too high, there's only one realistic solution: Congress must vote against raising the debt ceiling. When this finally happens, then probably someone will finally propose a better way to limit the debt, in which case the future debt problem can be addressed in a better way than this debt ceiling approach. But for now, this is the only way to do anything about stopping the runaway debt.

Even if the Chicken-Little warnings about default! default! are true, this too will only be temporary. The worst result will be that future debt will be made virtually impossible as the lenders refuse to ever buy bonds again, and the future system will become a "pay as you go" process. This would be better in some ways -- not totally bad. There are many possible alternatives to the present system. There is nothing logical about worshiping the present runaway debt system as sacred and unchangeable -- "World without End, Amen."

Even if this debt ceiling causes pain, it will only be temporary -- maybe 2 or 3 years -- because changes in the budget process will be forced, one way or another, whether the Reds and Blues can agree or not. If they do not, the changes will happen anyway, with forced spending cuts and increased revenue by one means or another. So after a difficult period, a new system will evolve even if it's not planned by the Red/Blue decision-makers. Even if no new law is passed and the President issues Executive Orders (even unconstitutionally), those changes will happen. Even if the House impeaches the President it won't make any difference, because the Senate will never convict the President. So the worst outcome will be some Draconian Executive Orders by the President, and the crisis will come to an end after 3 or 4 years as a new system evolves to replace the current one which promotes ever higher and higher debt. Thus, we can choose short-term pain and a solution to the runaway debt, or we can continue with the long-term debt damage continuing to afflict the nation for decades and decades into the future.

So if you say we must always keep raising the debt ceiling, you're saying in effect that the debt is not a problem and it can continue to rise -- higher and higher debt-to-GDP ratio -- without limit. And it doesn't matter, because the gov't is not limited like private individuals and families and businesses are, because it can always just "print" more money --- so nevermind the runaway debt.

If this is what you think, then don't condemn either Republicans or Democrats for running up the debt.
 
Whether or not the level of debt is a problem depends on our ability to finance and repay the debt which depends on the level of debt, the ownership of the debt and the US's net worth or income. That is why responsible analysis looks at the debt to net worth ratio for most borrowers. The US gov't has lots of assets but they are pretty hard to value.

So, for most gov'ts, the debt/GDP is usually taken as one measure of whether debt is too high. The ability to handle the interest payments on the debt is usually measured by the gov't primary deficit/surplus (the gov't deficit - interest paytments). If it is a primary surplus, that is usually taken to indicate the gov't is in decent shape to handle its deficit.

Moreover, the extent that the gov't debt is owned domestically is the extent to which repayment is not a national macroeconomic problem since it involves a redistribution from taxpayers to domestic bond holders. Currently, US citizens and institutions own just a little over 70% of the Federal debt which means that repayment would involve the US sending 30% of the debt over time (around $6 trillion) outside the country. Which would represent a drain on our economy.

The internal repayment would have some distributional effects on the macroeconomy but most analysts think that effect would be relatively minor.

Finally, the notion that a default would involve only a couple of years of pain ignores the effects on anyone who receives federal income support or who works for the federal gov't for those years. A default might cause significant hardship on those recipients and workers.
 
Whether or not the level of debt is a problem depends on our ability to finance and repay the debt . . .
That ability is made less by past debt, because today's revenue is less as a result of the past debt. Today's resources to finance and repay are less as a result of debt from 10 or 20 years ago. And our ability to finance and repay in the future will be made less by the debt we add today. Our deficits are not ones which enrich the country later, but which only increase our spending today on today's consumption, or instant gratification.
. . . our ability to finance and repay the debt which depends on the level of debt, the . . .
The level of debt is made higher by earlier higher debt, overall getting higher and higher percentagewise. So, as we borrow more, we make the future debt problem worse and worse. So our debt problem today is higher because of past increased debt, and our future debt problem will be made worse by our higher and higher debt today.
. . . depends on the level of debt, the ownership of the debt and . . .
It doesn't really matter who owns the debt. No matter who owns it, it has to be paid back, and the burden is no less because a foreigner owns it. The same principle and interest has to be paid back and imposes the same burden on future taxpayers, or the same pressure to borrow more later in order to pay back the previous debt to whoever owns it.
. . . ownership of the debt and the US's net worth or income.
The net worth or income is made less by past debt. The present net worth and income is less today as a result of past debt 10 or 20 years ago, because it is a liability today which we otherwise would not have, just as the net worth and income in the future will be made less by today's debt which imposes a liability onto the future.

That is why responsible analysis looks at the debt to net worth ratio for most borrowers.
That net worth is less because of past debt. Our net worth today is lower as a result of past debt 10-20 years ago, and the nation's net worth in the future will be less because of our increased debt today.

So, for most gov'ts, the debt/GDP is usually taken as one measure of whether debt is too high.
And that ratio is the highest ever because of the past higher debt, and our increasing debt today will drive that ratio even higher for the future. So if "too high" means anything, it is much too high today and will become even worse in the future if we don't stop the out-of-control deficits.

The ability to handle the interest payments on the debt is usually measured by the gov't primary deficit/surplus . . . .
This also is the worst ever, and in the future it will become even worse if something does not change to reduce rather than continue to increase the debt.

If it is a primary surplus, that is usually taken to indicate the gov't is in decent shape to handle its deficit.
Overall it is becoming less and less "in decent shape to handle" it. Arguably it was in good shape back in the late 1990s during the boom, which was unusual and probably won't happen again. Maybe there will be a similar boom in 40 or 50 years when fusion power comes into play to save us from climate change and give us cheap and clean energy. But in the meantime it is fantasy to expect there is any boom on the way such as we had in the late 1990s. And without such a boom, the gov't will not ever be "in decent shape" to handle the deficit unless something drastically different is done, like keeping the debt ceiling where it is rather than raising it.

Moreover, the extent that the gov't debt is owned domestically is the extent to which repayment is not a national macroeconomic problem since it involves a redistribution from taxpayers to domestic bond holders.
No, it doesn't matter who the bond holders are. They must be repaid, whoever they are, and this obligation to pay them is the problem, not whether they are foreign or domestic.

Currently, US citizens and institutions own just a little over 70% of the Federal debt which means that repayment would involve the US sending 30% of the debt over time (around $6 trillion) outside the country. Which would represent a drain on our economy.
No, it's no more a drain on the economy than if it's paid to US citizens and institutions. The obligation to pay, and benefits of paying rather than defaulting, is the same, no matter who the creditors are.

The internal repayment would have some distributional effects on the macroeconomy but most analysts think that effect would be relatively minor.
They are wrong if they think it makes any difference overall. Of course there are winners and losers with any kind of distribution. But overall there is no gain just because the repayment is internal rather than external.

Finally, the notion that a default would involve only a couple of years of pain ignores the effects on anyone who receives federal income support or who works for the federal gov't for those years.
The damage to those receiving federal payments is worse, in the long run, if the runaway debt continues. I.e., it's worse than if there is a default which brings an end to the out-of-control debt we rely on now. That default would do less damage overall than a continuation of the present debt without limit.

A default might cause significant hardship on those recipients and workers.
The hardship on them will be greater if there is no default so that future recipients and workers suffer the consequences of the continuing higher debt.

Today's recipients and workers are being made worse off by past increasing debt which has now become a higher cost for today's gov't and reduction in its ability to pay today's recipients and workers.
 
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