The death of Tyre Nichols

[Derec]

Often in these cases, the terms racism and bigotry get thrown around, when "bias" is easily more accessible and accurate. Black officers don't have to be racist or bigoted to be biased against a suspect, even when a minority.

That could be the case. Given the much higher crime rates among black people, I think cops (of all races) can interpret things like fleeing or mouthing off differently when a black suspect does it without harboring any racist thoughts per se. Again, that applies to cops of all races.

I think the cops were in the wrong for beating him. At the same time, none of it would have happened if he wasn't fleeing. And he probably would not have fled without being flooded by inane #BLM propaganda for a decade now.

 

[Gospel]

And he probably would not have fled without being flooded by inane #BLM propaganda for a decade now.

The fleeing came after the officers already went overboard so I don't know how you're insinuating that the officers wouldn't have gone overboard if he hadn't fled.

Edit: And to clerify, Tyre fled for his life. Not to evade law enforcement. These officers weren't doing what the force considers law enforcement.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Often in these cases, the terms racism and bigotry get thrown around, when "bias" is easily more accessible and accurate. Black officers don't have to be racist or bigoted to be biased against a suspect, even when a minority.

That could be the case. Given the much higher crime rates among black people, I think cops (of all races) can interpret things like fleeing or mouthing off differently when a black suspect does it without harboring any racist thoughts per se. Again, that applies to cops of all races.

I think the cops were in the wrong for beating him. At the same time, none of it would have happened if he wasn't fleeing.

The Police are supposed to be able to rise about that level. But your honor, he fled....

That shouldn't be relevant, only if he was a direct threat to the safety of people around them or themselves should force be used.

And... "beating him"... you mean "beating him to death" right?

And he probably would not have fled without being flooded by inane #BLM propaganda for a decade now.

Person fleeing from the cops because #BLM said the cops were dangerous... only to be beaten to death by the cops he was running away from... seems to be evidence favor of this alleged propaganda.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

He was out at the time the NYPost article was linked in this thread. By you.

No, he wasn't. He was arrested during the riot, and according to the NYC Inmate Lookup, he is still in jail.
I even posted a screenshot showing that. Why do I bother replying to you when you ignore everything I write?

Because you are ignoring what she is writing too. She stated that he was out of jail for the earlier offense, not right now. You already had noted you didn't think he should have been out for that offense. But really, the tit for tat conversations should be expected to be overlooked because no one really gives a fuck what the other person is saying.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jebus Christ man! Warning before post something like that, my irony meter was right next to me when it exploded!

You need to calibrate it better next time then.

Dude, you are obsessed with race, gender, and looks. To ask why anyone else would be is just ridiculous.

"Your girl"?

It is snark. Toni called her attractive twice.

Yes... I get the snark part. My raising it was passively asking why the snark? It is like you want Toni to give a fuck what you say, but then post a ton of snark...

 

[Derec]

He was out at the time the NYPost article was linked in this thread. By you.

No, he wasn't. He was arrested during the riot, and according to the NYC Inmate Lookup, he is still in jail.
I even posted a screenshot showing that. Why do I bother replying to you when you ignore everything I write?

Because you are ignoring what she is writing too. She stated that he was out of jail for the earlier offense, not right now.

Wrong. Read what she wrote. "He was out at the time the NYPost article was linked in this thread. By you."
When I posted the article, Rivera was already arrested for the windshield smashing at the Tyre Nichols riot (or else NYPost could not be writing about it) and he is still in jail.
As far as the previous arrest, he was given $25k bail for that. Hopefully bail for that case will be revoked now, but you never know in soft-on-crime NY. He was not released on own recognizance like Candy Nicole.

 

[Gospel]

That could be the case. Given the much higher crime rates among black people, I think cops (of all races) can interpret things like fleeing or mouthing off differently when a black suspect does it without harboring any racist thoughts per se. Again, that applies to cops of all races.

So, how exactly does one

interpret things like fleeing or mouthing off differently when a black suspect does it

while considering the

Given the much higher crime rates among black people

Without said interpretation being based on their race?

 

[Derec]

Dude, you are obsessed with race, gender, and looks. To ask why anyone else would be is just ridiculous.

Wrong. I did not mention Candy Nicole's race, gender or looks. Toni did. Your irony detector should have gone off with her.

Yes... I get the snark part. My raising it was passively asking why the snark? It is like you want Toni to give a fuck what you say, but then post a ton of snark...

Because Toni went out of her way to call Candy Nicole "attractive". Twice. So I think calling Nicole "your girl" re Toni was appropriate.

 

[Derec]

Without said interpretation being based on their race?

A lot of it is subconscious. Especially when these reactions are done mostly in quickly unfolding situations without being able to reflect on it.

 

[Gospel]

Without said interpretation being based on their race?

A lot of it is subconscious. Especially when these reactions are done mostly in quickly unfolding situations without being able to reflect on it.

ahh I see. So as long as it is subconscious it's not racist. So unintended racism is not racism. Got it.

 

[Derec]

The Police are supposed to be able to rise about that level. But your honor, he fled....
That shouldn't be relevant, only if he was a direct threat to the safety of people around them or themselves should force be used.

Even without police doing anything wrong, actions such as fleeing and resisting put you at a higher risk than complying.
Much more chance of injury or misunderstandings.

Person fleeing from the cops because #BLM said the cops were dangerous... only to be beaten to death by the cops he was running away from... seems to be evidence favor of this alleged propaganda.

My point is that he would not have been beaten if he did not flee. It's a sticky cycle (so to speak). Black suspects are more likely to escalate due to #BLM propaganda, police respond more aggressively to this escalation, which #BLM use to fuel their anti-cop propaganda. Rinse, repeat. My point is that #BLM has done far more harm than good to US race relations, as well as relations between police and the public.

 

[Derec]

ahh I see. So as long as it is subconscious it's not racist. So unintended racism is not racism. Got it.

It can be (implicit) bias, but I do not think it's fair to call it racist.
In the end, that's arguing over semantics though. I do not think it is right to treat suspects differently based on their race, but I do also think intent matters. And intent is by definition conscious.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Police are supposed to be able to rise about that level. But your honor, he fled....
That shouldn't be relevant, only if he was a direct threat to the safety of people around them or themselves should force be used.

Even without police doing anything wrong, actions such as fleeing and resisting put you at a higher risk than complying.
Much more chance of injury or misunderstandings.

Person fleeing from the cops because #BLM said the cops were dangerous... only to be beaten to death by the cops he was running away from... seems to be evidence favor of this alleged propaganda.

My point is that he would not have been beaten if he did not flee. It's a sticky cycle (so to speak). Black suspects are more likely to escalate due to #BLM propaganda, police respond more aggressively to this escalation, which #BLM use to fuel their anti-cop propaganda. Rinse, repeat. My point is that #BLM has done far more harm than good to US race relations, as well as relations between police and the public.

You just have to blame #BLM, don't you. You've already stated that the beating death was unjustifiable... but you can't leave it there. You need to drag #BLM and assign some blame on them. Do you actually think discomfort and fear of the police by blacks is sourced to #BLM?

No! The blame is on the people that beat this man TO DEATH! The allegedly trained professionals that should be able to take a man into custody without killing him.

 

[Gospel]

ahh I see. So as long as it is subconscious it's not racist. So unintended racism is not racism. Got it.

It can be (implicit) bias, but I do not think it's fair to call it racist.
In the end, that's arguing over semantics though. I do not think it is right to treat suspects differently based on their race, but I do also think intent matters. And intent is by definition conscious.

If it's determined by race it is racist. Bias against for example everyone that drives a Tesla is bias because it wouldn't be based on a persons race but rather the vehicle they are driving. But if the bias is only against black people who drive Teslas then yeah, its about race.

 

[Gospel]

In the end, that's arguing over semantics though. I do not think it is right to treat suspects differently based on their race, but I do also think intent matters. And intent is by definition conscious.

FYI on intent. A person can be unintentionally racist.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

ahh I see. So as long as it is subconscious it's not racist. So unintended racism is not racism. Got it.

It can be (implicit) bias, but I do not think it's fair to call it racist.
In the end, that's arguing over semantics though. I do not think it is right to treat suspects differently based on their race, but I do also think intent matters. And intent is by definition conscious.

If it's determined by race it is racist. Bias against for example everyone that drives a Tesla is bias because it wouldn't be based on a persons race but rather the vehicle they are driving. But if the bias is only against black people who drive Teslas then yeah, its about race.

My understanding is racism = intentionally institutionalized. Police policies targeting blacks over whites is racist. To me, presumption of a suspect based on their race doesn't have to be racist, though it can be.

ETA: There is bias (presumption based on id), racial bias (presumption in part due to racial identity), bigotry (malice opinions based on race or whatever), racism (laws, regulations designed to negatively impact targeted minorities), and while these terms are used interchangeably, I don't think that makes their use right.

 

[Toni]

(Suprised that no-one has started a thread yet it seems)

So yet another death from a police beating in the USA.
Why do you people hate each other so much?

I cannot understand why the police stopping a car should result in a death?
From what we hear/see in Australia it would seem that police stop a vehicle, assume trouble and then go nuclear.
Are there any polite, calm police in the US?

The fact that it is black on black is not good indicative of a better society occuring.

I kept checking to see if someone had posted about this. I couldn't bring myself to do it. My anger and outrage have been overcome by such profound sadness. I have not looked at the video. I think I won't ever look at it. And I don't know if that is cowardice on my part or simply refusing to take part in that particular, all too familiar ritual, one that I know some (no one here) watch with a great deal of satisfaction and worse. I tell myself that I also want him remembered as a vibrant young man who was a budding photographer, loved by his family, full of promise. I don't want that lost in the ugly, hateful, horrific way he died.

And I sit here, comfortably white in a comfortably overwhelmingly white town in a comfortably overwhelmingly white state and know that the talks I gave my kids as they got old enough to go out on their own were so far removed from what the parents of children of color must give theirs that it is as though we lived on completely different planets. Even the talk I gave my daughter, the one that so infuriated her as it infuriated and sickened me was not the same one that black parents must give their children and know how little good it may do if they are ever pulled over by the wrong police officer. I figured it was something like looking at the shoes of black parents and that about destroyed me. These days, we call that white privilege: the ability to not fear for your child's life when they go to the store for snacks or to take photos or go for a run. I struggle with that entire concept because it should not be a privilege. It should just be.

 

[RVonse]

I'm surprised that the right wing hasn't yet found anything in Nichols' past they can use to paint him as a "thug" or "criminal" who maybe deserved his fate.

They do it with every single extrajudicial killing without fail. It's like clockwork.

I'm surprised I did not hear the media droning on about racism....they do it with every police killing without fail. Its like clockwork.

I guess they found a way to keep the narrative going, black police are racist now:

https://coloradosun.com/2023/01/29/tyre-nichols-racism-police-opinion-littwin/

 

[repoman]

When a suspect is rightfully or mistakenly (even drug fueled) fearful of police attacking him and is reacting in a total freakout manner -- this is the time for police to be able to use the most effective and least harmful method to restrain that person.

If Tyre Nichols was (this is a hypothetical) drugged out on something or having a non drug caused psychotic episode, then the barked orders from the police punctuated by harsh blows would be counterproductive.

Also for a non drugged suspect who was initially resisting and decided he wants to stop resisting, I can imagine this -- he tries to go limp and surrender, then a cop gives him a kidney punch and he flinches (as anyone would) then another cop sees that flinch as resisting and this merry go round continues. Instead of stop resisting, more like stop flinching from the blows.

Why yell so intensely at the beginning of the encounter to a person already in intense fight or flight panic?

This is totally different from the Keenan Anderson encounter where the cop was doing a good job of calming him down at the beginning.

 

[Oleg]

There are thousands, if not millions, of police interactions every day. When one bad act by some bad apples occurs, it does not mean that police or policing is bad. It just means those bad apples need to be removed. Any organization that has people is going to have bad apples.