How We Got Exspensive College Tuition And Massive Student Debt

[Toni]

And then we have the very pricey textbook scams.

This an issue that always annoyed me greatly when doing my degree in the early 90s in Aust. A newer edition of a text book would be released with the only differences seems to be the chapters are re-ordered and a new preface. Yet it is required and a high price. There was nothing wrong with the older edition. The same when my daughter was doing primary, high school, uni in the 00-20s.
I am not surprised it is world wide.

I went back to school as an older adult, when the expense of books had become an even bigger problem than it was way back when my organic chemistry text cost $35 and I about died at the cost. In my experience as a student in the early 2000's and as the spouse of a university prof, you can ask the prof if the older edition is sufficient. Usually it is, although you might have to pay a little more attention when you're assigned chapters 12-15 that you are reading the correct chapters. Also, attending class was always extremely helpful.

But yes, it's bullshit.

 

[TSwizzle]

“we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployed people.” should probably update that to “we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployable people.”

So many highly trained people in "skills" (liberal arts) that are unemployable with a huge student loan debt seems to be what we are looking at.

I know that you believe people with degrees in liberal arts are unemployable.

I really don't know the specifics, I just based that on when I recruit for a clerical position I get a shit load of resumes from liberal arts degree holders who are either unemployed (and have been for quite a while) or are working as baristas at Starbucks.

Too bad you swallow the anti-education propaganda whole.

I wasn't aware there was any anti-education propaganda so no.

 

[Toni]

“we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployed people.” should probably update that to “we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployable people.”

So many highly trained people in "skills" (liberal arts) that are unemployable with a huge student loan debt seems to be what we are looking at.

I know that you believe people with degrees in liberal arts are unemployable.

I really don't know the specifics, I just based that on when I recruit for a clerical position I get a shit load of resumes from liberal arts degree holders who are either unemployed (and have been for quite a while) or are working as baristas at Starbucks.

Too bad you swallow the anti-education propaganda whole.

I wasn't aware there was any anti-education propaganda so no.

I don't know the specifics sounds like a lot of your posts.

So, you get a lot of Liberal Arts Degreed applicants applying for your clerical positions? And you'd hire from that pool? So, they are employable. It sounds as though you are talking about an entry level position so what? You expected someone with a Ph.D, in astrophysics? Of course you are going to get people who are not employed or who have taken stop gap jobs while they hunt for something better. D'oh.

Almost no one gets a job with a title announcing their degree. Which is vastly different than being unemployable. I, for instance, earned a degree and was quickly employed by a well regarded institution and my job title had nothing to do with my degree. My degree was one of a set of several requisite for the job.

The fact that you are unaware of any anti-education propaganda explains why so many people like yourselves swallow it whole.

 

[laughing dog]

I love people posting about wasted spending and showing a list of people making $45,000 a year! How out of touch are people today?

And just to put Oleg's AEI propaganda to rest, OSU's annual budget is over $8 billion making that $13 million of grift less than 0.2% of OSU's budget. So again, we see the right-wing propaganda shouting out at windmills.

Uh, that $13M may be nothing to you, but if you were a student struggling with tuition you might think differently. Are public universities about the students or the sinecure?

$13 million works out to about $220 per student. In state tuition for OSU is almost $12,000 per year. So if that $13 million disappeared and the reduced expense was translated into a tuition reduction, tuition falls by 1.8% - hardly a driver of high tuition.


And, of course, that analysis assumes that those employees do nothing of value - something you have not shown.

 

[Oleg]

And, of course, that analysis assumes that those employees do nothing of value - something you have not shown.

If they were all fired tomorrow, would anyone notice?

 

[TSwizzle]

I don't know the specifics sounds like a lot of your posts.

Maybe but in this instance I'm only stating an opinion on my experience.

So, you get a lot of Liberal Arts Degreed applicants applying for your clerical positions? And you'd hire from that pool?

No I don't actually. I hire candidates that took the time to read the job description and have resumes that fit the job description.

So, they are employable. It sounds as though you are talking about an entry level position so what?

Sure if they want to work minimum wage stacking shelves or working in Starbucks. Why would someone that spent four years in full time education and took on a ton of debt be working as a barista for minimum wage? We actually had an accounting position posted, scores of liberal arts degree holders applied. It's like they don't read the requirements.

You expected someone with a Ph.D, in astrophysics? Of course you are going to get people who are not employed or who have taken stop gap jobs while they hunt for something better. D'oh.

You'd be surprised who applies for some of these low level positions., some very well educated people indeed. I have had a PhD apply but it wasn't astrophysics, I can't remember what it was in. For the position I was hiring for I hired a high school graduate who was going to community college. I passed over the scores of liberal arts holders that were unemployed or working as baristas.

Almost no one gets a job with a title announcing their degree. Which is vastly different than being unemployable. {snip}

Almost no one? I think that may be inaccurate. Of course, I don't have the specifics but "almost no one" does seem a stretch.

The fact that you are unaware of any anti-education propaganda explains why so many people like yourselves swallow it whole.

I don't think so but you seem adamant.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I love people posting about wasted spending and showing a list of people making $45,000 a year! How out of touch are people today?

And just to put Oleg's AEI propaganda to rest, OSU's annual budget is over $8 billion making that $13 million of grift less than 0.2% of OSU's budget. So again, we see the right-wing propaganda shouting out at windmills.

Uh, that $13M may be nothing to you, but if you were a student struggling with tuition you might think differently. Are public universities about the students or the sinecure?

The subject is expensive college. All you did was post AEI propaganda which whined about a number of people that account for less than 0.2% of the expense of running OSU, which is a rather worthless argument when blaming something about why college is so expensive.

 

[laughing dog]

And, of course, that analysis assumes that those employees do nothing of value - something you have not shown.

If they were all fired tomorrow, would anyone notice?

Most likely more than one person would notice. I get that you think inclusion and diversity are a waste of time.

For some reason, you keep evading the OP topic with your responses. Even if all those people were fired and the compensation savings were all passed on to students, that would result in less than a 2% reduction in annual tuition.

Perhaps math is difficult for you, but a 2% reduction would not do much about high tuition - at least by normal standards.

 

[bilby]

liberal arts degree holders who are either unemployed (and have been for quite a while) or are working as baristas

Hey, at least they've advanced from their positions as solicitas. Quite impressive for someone who's degree isn't in law.

 

[Toni]

I don't know the specifics sounds like a lot of your posts.

Maybe but in this instance I'm only stating an opinion on my experience.

So, you get a lot of Liberal Arts Degreed applicants applying for your clerical positions? And you'd hire from that pool?

No I don't actually. I hire candidates that took the time to read the job description and have resumes that fit the job description.

So, they are employable. It sounds as though you are talking about an entry level position so what?

Sure if they want to work minimum wage stacking shelves or working in Starbucks. Why would someone that spent four years in full time education and took on a ton of debt be working as a barista for minimum wage? We actually had an accounting position posted, scores of liberal arts degree holders applied. It's like they don't read the requirements.

You expected someone with a Ph.D, in astrophysics? Of course you are going to get people who are not employed or who have taken stop gap jobs while they hunt for something better. D'oh.

You'd be surprised who applies for some of these low level positions., some very well educated people indeed. I have had a PhD apply but it wasn't astrophysics, I can't remember what it was in. For the position I was hiring for I hired a high school graduate who was going to community college. I passed over the scores of liberal arts holders that were unemployed or working as baristas.

Almost no one gets a job with a title announcing their degree. Which is vastly different than being unemployable. {snip}

Almost no one? I think that may be inaccurate. Of course, I don't have the specifics but "almost no one" does seem a stretch.

The fact that you are unaware of any anti-education propaganda explains why so many people like yourselves swallow it whole.

I don't think so but you seem adamant.

Sounds like you are purposely selecting for the least educated applicant so they won’t make trouble by expecting decent pay and some chance at career advancement.

The fact is that most college students work at least one job while going to school, often full time hours. After graduation, some few are able to take their time while job hunting b; some go straight into jobs. A lot pick up what they can while applying for what they want and exploring options. Most graduate exhausted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And then we have the very pricey textbook scams.

I don't know, isn't that an issue of demand not being too high for those types of books and the expertise required in developing them?

The authors don't see that much of the money. The publishers change up a bit so the old books can't be used next year.

There are topics where the books need frequent updating but in many fields that's simply not needed. Learning from a 10 year old book is fine.

 

[laughing dog]

And then we have the very pricey textbook scams.

I don't know, isn't that an issue of demand not being too high for those types of books and the expertise required in developing them?

The authors don't see that much of the money. The publishers change up a bit so the old books can't be used next year.

There are topics where the books need frequent updating but in many fields that's simply not needed. Learning from a 10 year old book is fine.

Whether it is "needed" or not from a pedagogical point of view, the editions come out anyway for the very reason I elucidated early and which you reiterated.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And then we have the very pricey textbook scams.

I don't know, isn't that an issue of demand not being too high for those types of books and the expertise required in developing them?

The authors don't see that much of the money. The publishers change up a bit so the old books can't be used next year.

There are topics where the books need frequent updating but in many fields that's simply not needed. Learning from a 10 year old book is fine.

Whether it is "needed" or not from a pedagogical point of view, the editions come out anyway for the very reason I elucidated early and which you reiterated.

The point is the cost of writing them is not an important factor in the "new" edition problem.

 

[Oleg]

Weeding out the commisars could save a lot of money and make college more affordable. But, priorities.

The rise of universities’ diversity bureaucrats

How is the hiring spree for a new kind of official changing higher education in America?

www.economist.com

Bureaucrats outnumber faculty 2:1 at public universities and 2.5:1 at private colleges, double the ratio in the 1970s. Diversity is the top justification for these hires, says Richard Vedder of the Centre for College Affordability and Productivity, a think-tank. Of more than 1,000 bureaucrats at Ohio University in Athens, 400 are superfluous, he reckons. If let go, tuition fees could be cut by a fifth.

 

[laughing dog]

Weeding out the commisars could save a lot of money and make college more affordable. But, priorities.

The rise of universities’ diversity bureaucrats

How is the hiring spree for a new kind of official changing higher education in America?

www.economist.com

Bureaucrats outnumber faculty 2:1 at public universities and 2.5:1 at private colleges, double the ratio in the 1970s. Diversity is the top justification for these hires, says Richard Vedder of the Centre for College Affordability and Productivity, a think-tank. Of more than 1,000 bureaucrats at Ohio University in Athens, 400 are superfluous, he reckons. If let go, tuition fees could be cut by a fifth.

I find that data about bureaucrats outnumbering faculty at public university to be unbelievable, unless it disingenously includes anyone who is not faculty as a bureaucrat.

Tuition at Ohio University is about $12,000 per student and there are about 29,000 which makes tuition revenue around 350 million dollars,. 20% of that is 70 million dollars. That means that the average compensation of those 400 "bureaucrats" is $175,000. Seems a bit high, but it is possible.

I do know that Mr Vedder is a long-time conservative critic of higher education.

 

[steve_bank]

Simple economics.

The idea was promoted that the only way to have a decent life was to get a college degree. The bar was lowered for entrance. Easy loanns were made available. Demand goes up. Price goes up.

Econ 101, supply and demand. Easy loans for stdnts and scji[olls wil chare approritly. Schools are not on the hook for loans.

Add to the growth in programs, like culture studies and women's studies. They have to be funded.

Schools became social engineering.

And lastly, sstdnts taking on debt without any idea of how they are going to ay it. It seems lie students think a degree is an automatic ticket to a job. I got a degree, where's my job?

Increase the numbers of college grads and the value goes down, again supply and demand.

During the 90s .com boom students oped for computer science with dollar signs in their eyes instead of electrical engineering. Supply of EEs went down and salaries went up.

 

[Oleg]

I do know that Mr Vedder is a long-time conservative critic of higher education.

Well, maybe. (I've never heard of him before.) But if the talking point is that tuition is high because state legislatures have cut funding, it's peculiar these universities can still find money to pay for their army of diversicrats.

 

[Oleg]

The idea was promoted that the only way to have a decent life was to get a college degree. The bar was lowered for entrance. Easy loanns were made available. Demand goes up. Price goes up.

Not completely on board with that. Tuition goes up because the unversities know the students have access to loans. It's not how much tuition costs, it's how much can students pay. An idea, which I think Andrew Yang promoted, is to require that universities taking public loan payment not charge over a certain amount for tuition. We already do this with Medicare and Medicaid. Why not federal student loans and grants?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The point is, tuition used to be affordable. Now it isn't because an Austrian idiot declared the U.S. should not have an educated protelariat. That leads to students becoming Nazis! Leading the GOP to slash support to Universities and requiring large loans to prevent the proles from becoming educated.

 

[laughing dog]

The idea was promoted that the only way to have a decent life was to get a college degree. The bar was lowered for entrance. Easy loanns were made available. Demand goes up. Price goes up.

Not completely on board with that. Tuition goes up because the unversities know the students have access to loans. It's not how much tuition costs, it's how much can students pay. An idea, which I think Andrew Yang promoted, is to require that universities taking public loan payment not charge over a certain amount for tuition. We already do this with Medicare and Medicaid. Why not federal student loans and grants?

And we all know how well Medicare and Medicaid works.