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Fake Gay Marriage Website and SCOTUS Ruling

It does not forbid religion nor does it endorse religion.

Religion as a protected class is an endorsement of religion.
And yet religion is expressly protected in the first amendment. Not any specific religion, and it has been interpreted to include the absence of religion, but it is still there.

Also, religion is specifically listed as one of the protected classes so frequently appealed to in this discussion. ;) You might not want it to be, but there it is.


Emily, I kindly request that you direct your attention to the substance of my argument rather than assuming or misconstruing my personal motives. The merit of my statements should be the primary focus here. Let's not assume or speculate on my intentions, as that remains known only to me.
I believe I am responding to the substance of your posts, not speculating in any way.

That said, it's certainly possible I have misunderstood you. If that's the case, please feel free to enlighten me by making your argument more clearly.
 
Emily, I gather that you don't perceive the designation of religion as a protected class as a form of endorsing religion.
I don't see designating religion as a protected class as being an endorsement of religion. Nor do I see designating sexual orientation as a protected class being an endorsement of homosexuality. Nor do I see designating race as a protected class as being an endorsement for black people.

I think there's a fundamental difference between saying "You can't discriminate against people because of this characteristic" and "Hooray, this characteristic is great and good".

Are you familiar with the concept of endorsement, and its implications in the context of a US constitution that says congress shall make no laws respecting an established religion?
Probably not. Why don't you go ahead and expound on it?

I will say that "make no laws respecting an established religion" is commonly understood to mean the government can't designate an official US religion, nor require a specific religion of its citizens or politicians. And that doesn't seem to be how you're reading that, so it seems like you think that clause means something completely different, and I'm in the dark about what's inside your brain ;)
 
The SCOTUS is always grappling with how to maintain the balance between the government's duty not to establish a religion, while also not inhibiting the free exercise of religion—a tension that lies at the heart of First Amendment jurisprudence.

IMO - The impact of a web designer creating a website for a same-sex couple on their ability to practice their religion is as negligible as the effect of death on Christ's role as the Messiah. :whistle:
I feel like someone spiked my afternoon tea. Seriously, I'm having trouble parsing this.

Your last statement is tripping me up. Specifically ...
The impact of a web designer creating a website for a same-sex couple on their ability to practice their religion is as negligible as
seems to imply that you think that such a thing IS negligible. It would seem to imply that you think that there is no material impact on the designers ability to practice their religion by being obligated to design a same-sex website.

But then...
as the effect of death on Christ's role as the Messiah.
Would seem to say exactly the opposite.

Honestly, Gospel, I'm just gonna have to assume you and I are speaking different languages. I suspect you rely on a lot of subtlety and subtext... and I'm really horrible at gleaning those from written text. I'm not even good at getting it when there are lots of non-verbal cues to clue me in.
 
While support for revolution may not have been unanimous, I'd say the victors did a pretty good job in maintaining the original goal and established the first large scale representative democracy and then the first successful large scale representative democracy.
That seems unlikely; But rather depends on what you imagine "the original goal" actually was, which itself depends on there having been an original goal at all.

Like most historical events, the American Revolution wasn't really planned; It just happened. The various parties all had different goals, and the victors got together later to declare that what had happened was what they had wanted all along.

Representative democracy was an unintended consequence of the need to present a united front against a powerful enemy.
330px-Benjamin_Franklin_-_Join_or_Die.jpg
 
Then they should also have no obligation to participate in the religious aspects of the wedding by being required to provide a cake or a website for it.
I am not aware of any religion that has a requirement for weddings to involve cake (though such a faith seems oddly attractive to me); And I am almost entirely certain that no religion has a dogmatic insistence on a website as a prerequisite for a marriage to be considered valid.

Cakes and websites are not religious aspects of a wedding. The religious aspects are stuff like having an official who is ordained by the church; Holding the ceremony in a consecrated place; and using wording that's authorised by church authorities for use in wedding ceremonies.
 
I am not aware of any religion that has a requirement for weddings to involve cake (though such a faith seems oddly attractive to me);

Yep.
Decades ago a perfectly ordinary friend of mine was planning to get married. She said, "Yeah, if it was up to Bill and me we'd have a picnic in the park and a multi tiered pizza."

But their parents didn't want that, so they had a church wedding. Complete with reception, that left them in debt for a couple of years. The moms wanted the event, but didn't want to pay for it.
Tom
 
I don't see designating religion as a protected class as being an endorsement of religion. Nor do I see designating sexual orientation as a protected class being an endorsement of homosexuality. Nor do I see designating race as a protected class as being an endorsement for black people.

Aww crap. You're right. :ROFLMAO:
 
It does not forbid religion nor does it endorse religion.

Religion as a protected class is an endorsement of religion.
And yet religion is expressly protected in the first amendment. Not any specific religion, and it has been interpreted to include the absence of religion, but it is still there.

Also, religion is specifically listed as one of the protected classes so frequently appealed to in this discussion. ;) You might not want it to be, but there it is.


Emily, I kindly request that you direct your attention to the substance of my argument rather than assuming or misconstruing my personal motives. The merit of my statements should be the primary focus here. Let's not assume or speculate on my intentions, as that remains known only to me.
I believe I am responding to the substance of your posts, not speculating in any way.

That said, it's certainly possible I have misunderstood you. If that's the case, please feel free to enlighten me by making your argument more clearly.

Well, I believe religion being a protected class makes sense and I have no desire to change that.
 
I feel like someone spiked my afternoon tea. Seriously, I'm having trouble parsing this.

Your last statement is tripping me up. Specifically ...

When I said,

IMO - The impact of a web designer creating a website for a same-sex couple on their ability to practice their religion is as negligible as the effect of death on Christ's role as the Messiah.

What I implied was if Christ could confront death while maintaining his faith, then surely the act of designing a website would have a lesser impact on one's faith.
 
[
Another non-answer.

Are you going to address the issue of creativity or keep throwing up non-answers to avoid addressing it?
It is no more a non- answer than your ironic replies. You think web design requires more creativity than practicing medicine and I don’t. Your self- serving definitions do not create the differentiation you wish to make.
I presented a simple yardstick that you have never addressed.
 
Based on some legal language I recall reading before it seemed to me that the standard was “sincerely held religious belief”. So the “traditional” may be a red herring. Note: I am not a lawyer.
Why would that make "traditional" a red herring? Whether the belief is sincerely held is a question of fact; the court is perfectly entitled to investigate it and examine evidence for and against, same as if they're deciding whether a killer sincerely believed the dead woman was trying to kill him when they're evaluating his self-defense plea. What, if a guy says he has a sincere belief that God wanted him to sell that crystal meth, the court is required to take him at his word just because he intoned the word "God"? A belief is a heck of a lot more likely to be sincere if it was taught to the defendant as a child by a community that's been teaching it to children for hundreds of years than if it's something he just made up himself, suspiciously synchronized with encountering a law he wanted to break.

Why would that make "traditional" a red herring?
Because
1) there is no consensus on what traditional means in an operative sense, and
2) it denies the legal validity of newly or “ nontraditional” religious beliefs that are sincerely held.
:rolleyesa: I.e., you snipped out my explanation and answered as though I'd never said it. The lack of consensus is immaterial since the judge/jury in each given case can simply decide; and of course it doesn't deny the legal validity of nontraditional religious beliefs that are sincerely held -- nothing of the sort.

In ruling on one of these cases there are two distinct questions a court has before it, and you persist in conflating them.

(1) Should we "accept that belief as a valid operational guide when we are dealing with social policy."
(2) Is the belief sincerely held.

You appear to be taking an attitude of "Question 1: No. Question 2: Who cares? See 1." As you put it, "So, of course, we can believe whatever they say the believe." Well, yes, we "can"; but that doesn't mean we ought to believe whatever they say they believe. If we want, we can have our courts subject question 2 to normal standards of evidence and try to get correct answers instead of a one-size-fits-all answer good for nothing but letting us pat ourselves on the back about how accepting we are. If we want to actually find out if the belief is sincere, whether it's traditional is highly relevant. Not dispositive, obviously; but a traditional doctrine is more likely to be sincere than a newly made up ad hoc doctrine, so if the defendant wants to prove he isn't lying about a nontraditional belief he's going to need to produce stronger evidence.

As for why we ought to try to get a correct answer to 2, with respect to public policy, if we get correct answers then the magnitude of the problem of cutting believers some slack goes way down -- we'd only need to consider a few dozen sincerely held beliefs instead of the million-odd made-up fake beliefs people might offer as grounds for being exempted from some law. Of course if your goal is to make that problem as big as possible in order to justify your "Question 1: No." attitude, then this isn't going to appeal to you; but we're a democracy and most Americans are in favor of cutting believers some slack and therefore have reason to make the problem as small as possible. So doing what needs to be done to make that feasible helps make this the sort of country most of us want it to be. You're perfectly entitled to oppose that goal, but your policy preferences don't magically make "traditional" a red herring or magically make "traditional" deny the legal validity of nontraditional religious beliefs that are sincerely held.
 
will say that "make no laws respecting an established religion" is commonly understood to mean the government can't designate an official US religion, nor require a specific religion of its citizens or politicians. And that doesn't seem to be how you're reading that, so it seems like you think that clause means something completely different, and I'm in the dark about what's inside your brain

My intention was to highlight that endorsing is, essentially, publicly expressing approval or support. When a law protects an individual, it implies support for that individual, and support entails assistance, which is inherently a sign of respect. I'm unsure how these points do not signify respect for religion, defined as the focus on or consideration for religious matters.

To deny that religion as a protected class indicates support for religion is analogous to stating that the United States did not support slavery during the era when it was enshrined in law.

However, it seems that the importance of the Constitution's intention to separate church and state— not just preventing the government from establishing a church— is often overlooked. And while it may seem that my argument is pushing for the removal of religion as a protected class, that's not my focus.

My argument revolves around the belief that courts should be cautious of involving themselves in religious affairs. The more entangled they become, the more the essence of the First Amendment risks being diluted.

But you can keep focusing on winning arguments citizen! Cheerio!
 
To my reading “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” doesn’t refer to respecting religion(s). It is just meant to guarantee that the gov won’t get on your shit for your religion or lack thereof.
I also think making megachurches (or even mini-churches) tax exempt, violates the spirit of that clause.
 
To my reading “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” doesn’t refer to respecting religion(s). It is just meant to guarantee that the gov won’t get on your shit for your religion or lack thereof.

It literally says "make no law".

Edit: Which is what the point I'm making is that Religion as a protected class is a law respecting an establishment of religion. Heck it's respecting multiple establishments of religions. :ROFLMAO:
 
It latterly says "make no law".
Your point? Obviously it is Congress’ job to make laws. The clause restricts itself to “the establishment of any religion”. The word “respecting” meant “with respect to”or “regarding” not “paying respect“, though I can see that included in the proscription.
 
[
Another non-answer.

Are you going to address the issue of creativity or keep throwing up non-answers to avoid addressing it?
It is no more a non- answer than your ironic replies. You think web design requires more creativity than practicing medicine and I don’t. Your self- serving definitions do not create the differentiation you wish to make.
I presented a simple yardstick that you have never addressed.

I agree with Laughing Dog on this one. Your subjective yardstick seems simple and clear in your mind, but it seems vague and murky to others. It almost certainly won't be a yardstick that will be clear in the minds of business owners and judges that actually have to deal with real cases of discrimination, unlike the imaginary one that SCOTUS decided to base their decision on. The legal definition of "creativity" is a real mental football when it comes to issues like patent law. I don't see it getting any easier when it comes to goods and services designed by businesses.
 
It latterly says "make no law".
Your point? Obviously it is Congress’ job to make laws. The clause restricts itself to “the establishment of any religion”. The word “respecting” meant “with respect to”or “regarding” not “paying respect“, though I can see that included in the proscription.

Sorry I made the clarification too late. Yes, Congress is the only one that can make laws. And as such congress is mandated by the constitution to avoid writing laws that have anything to do with religion. Yet here we are with religion as a protect class on the law books.
 
[
Another non-answer.

Are you going to address the issue of creativity or keep throwing up non-answers to avoid addressing it?
It is no more a non- answer than your ironic replies. You think web design requires more creativity than practicing medicine and I don’t. Your self- serving definitions do not create the differentiation you wish to make.
I presented a simple yardstick that you have never addressed.
Simple usually means wrong.
 
I didn't mean to implay it was. I was extrapolating the future cases that will involve "stock", that this case is a stepping stone to.
Sure there are--doesn't mean we agree with them.

And why quotes around "stock"--it's a common term in describing product.
 
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