Impregnation of Cis Female Woman, by Cis Woman, A Discussion of Swyers Syndrome.

[TomC]

My comment stands.

I understand why.


My comment stands as well.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think any male person cares about threats to women, tbh.

You have an extremely distorted picture of the world.

Just a different body of life experiences.

Nevertheless,
Thinking that male persons like Loren and me don't care about threats to women is extremely distorted.

Frankly, I think we're in the majority of male persons.
Tom
ETA ~I was trying to avoid this thread. I consider it a batch of woke nonsense. Your comment about male persons included me.~

I think it comes down to having a different evaluation of the threat. She sees threats in some situations I don't.

 

[Toni]

I don't think any male person cares about threats to women, tbh.

You have an extremely distorted picture of the world.

Just a different body of life experiences.

Nevertheless,
Thinking that male persons like Loren and me don't care about threats to women is extremely distorted.

Frankly, I think we're in the majority of male persons.
Tom
ETA ~I was trying to avoid this thread. I consider it a batch of woke nonsense. Your comment about male persons included me.~

I think it comes down to having a different evaluation of the threat. She sees threats in some situations I don't.

This is it exactly. The reason I see potential threats where you don’t is because of my experiences.

There have been a number of threads where men insisted something was no big deal when to at least some ( or most) women, it’s a very big deal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think any male person cares about threats to women, tbh.

You have an extremely distorted picture of the world.

Just a different body of life experiences.

Nevertheless,
Thinking that male persons like Loren and me don't care about threats to women is extremely distorted.

Frankly, I think we're in the majority of male persons.
Tom
ETA ~I was trying to avoid this thread. I consider it a batch of woke nonsense. Your comment about male persons included me.~

I think it comes down to having a different evaluation of the threat. She sees threats in some situations I don't.

This is it exactly. The reason I see potential threats where you don’t is because of my experiences.

There have been a number of threads where men insisted something was no big deal when to at least some ( or most) women, it’s a very big deal.

However, you have been using circular reasoning to support your fear.

You use the fact that women don't expect to see penises in women's spaces as a reason they should be prohibited in women's spaces.

Triggering, yes. Logical fear, no.

 

[Toni]

I don't think any male person cares about threats to women, tbh.

You have an extremely distorted picture of the world.

Just a different body of life experiences.

Nevertheless,
Thinking that male persons like Loren and me don't care about threats to women is extremely distorted.

Frankly, I think we're in the majority of male persons.
Tom
ETA ~I was trying to avoid this thread. I consider it a batch of woke nonsense. Your comment about male persons included me.~

I think it comes down to having a different evaluation of the threat. She sees threats in some situations I don't.

This is it exactly. The reason I see potential threats where you don’t is because of my experiences.

There have been a number of threads where men insisted something was no big deal when to at least some ( or most) women, it’s a very big deal.

However, you have been using circular reasoning to support your fear.

You use the fact that women don't expect to see penises in women's spaces as a reason they should be prohibited in women's spaces.

Triggering, yes. Logical fear, no.

This is an example of a man not really caring about women. You denigrate logical, justifiable, instinctual fears of women by asserting that they are not logical.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

However, you have been using circular reasoning to support your fear.

You use the fact that women don't expect to see penises in women's spaces as a reason they should be prohibited in women's spaces.

Triggering, yes. Logical fear, no.

This is an example of a man not really caring about women. You denigrate logical, justifiable, instinctual fears of women by asserting that they are not logical.

You're not addressing the circular nature of your argument. That's why I'm saying it's not logical.

 

[Toni]

However, you have been using circular reasoning to support your fear.

You use the fact that women don't expect to see penises in women's spaces as a reason they should be prohibited in women's spaces.

Triggering, yes. Logical fear, no.

This is an example of a man not really caring about women. You denigrate logical, justifiable, instinctual fears of women by asserting that they are not logical.

You're not addressing the circular nature of your argument. That's why I'm saying it's not logical.

This is what men like to say whenever women express justifiable instinctual fears.

You are proving my point.

If you woke up in the middle of the night and found a naked stranger standing beside your bed, you would naturally feel some degree of alarm. This is because you do not expect to see a naked stranger in your bedroom at night. I’m willing to bet your assessment of the threat would be greater if the stranger has a penis.

The same thing if you saw a naked stranger in your bathroom, living room or kitchen. Because you do not expect to see naked strangers in your private spaces. This is understandable. An unexpected stranger in your private spaces is seen as threatening. The threat goes up if the stranger is naked. It goes up again if the naked stranger has a penis. And of course all of these are more threatening if you, yourself are not clothed or are only partially clothed. This is at least partially instinctual. It is very likely that you would call for help and put distance between yourself and the stranger. Perfectly normal and in fact what any police officer would advise.

Women expect the same amount of security in a women’s dressing room/shower, even if it is at a public gym or spa. The unexpected presence of a naked stranger with a male appearing body is seen as a threat, instinctively but also based on experience. Both by cultural conditioning, and by in too many cases, actual experience of sexual assault this is threatening to most women. The only way I see this as changing is if men stop sexually assaulting women.

It would help if men began to take women and their safety concerns seriously. That would be a good first step.

You have demonstrated repeatedly why I am not holding my breath for even that small step.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

However, you have been using circular reasoning to support your fear.

You use the fact that women don't expect to see penises in women's spaces as a reason they should be prohibited in women's spaces.

Triggering, yes. Logical fear, no.

This is an example of a man not really caring about women. You denigrate logical, justifiable, instinctual fears of women by asserting that they are not logical.

You're not addressing the circular nature of your argument. That's why I'm saying it's not logical.

This is what men like to say whenever women express justifiable instinctual fears.

You are proving my point.

If you woke up in the middle of the night and found a naked stranger standing beside your bed, you would naturally feel some degree of alarm. This is because you do not expect to see a naked stranger in your bedroom at night. I’m willing to bet your assessment of the threat would be greater if the stranger has a penis.

The same thing if you saw a naked stranger in your bathroom, living room or kitchen. Because you do not expect to see naked strangers in your private spaces. This is understandable. An unexpected stranger in your private spaces is seen as threatening. The threat goes up if the stranger is naked. It goes up again if the naked stranger has a penis. And of course all of these are more threatening if you, yourself are not clothed or are only partially clothed. This is at least partially instinctual. It is very likely that you would call for help and put distance between yourself and the stranger. Perfectly normal and in fact what any police officer would advise.

Women expect the same amount of security in a women’s dressing room/shower, even if it is at a public gym or spa. The unexpected presence of a naked stranger with a male appearing body is seen as a threat, instinctively but also based on experience. Both by cultural conditioning, and by in too many cases, actual experience of sexual assault this is threatening to most women. The only way I see this as changing is if men stop sexually assaulting women.

It would help if men began to take women and their safety concerns seriously. That would be a good first step.

You have demonstrated repeatedly why I am not holding my breath for even that small step.

But you have used this as an argument that penises should not be allowed in women's spaces--but if they were allowed they would not longer be unexpected.

 

[Toni]

However, you have been using circular reasoning to support your fear.

You use the fact that women don't expect to see penises in women's spaces as a reason they should be prohibited in women's spaces.

Triggering, yes. Logical fear, no.

This is an example of a man not really caring about women. You denigrate logical, justifiable, instinctual fears of women by asserting that they are not logical.

You're not addressing the circular nature of your argument. That's why I'm saying it's not logical.

This is what men like to say whenever women express justifiable instinctual fears.

You are proving my point.

If you woke up in the middle of the night and found a naked stranger standing beside your bed, you would naturally feel some degree of alarm. This is because you do not expect to see a naked stranger in your bedroom at night. I’m willing to bet your assessment of the threat would be greater if the stranger has a penis.

The same thing if you saw a naked stranger in your bathroom, living room or kitchen. Because you do not expect to see naked strangers in your private spaces. This is understandable. An unexpected stranger in your private spaces is seen as threatening. The threat goes up if the stranger is naked. It goes up again if the naked stranger has a penis. And of course all of these are more threatening if you, yourself are not clothed or are only partially clothed. This is at least partially instinctual. It is very likely that you would call for help and put distance between yourself and the stranger. Perfectly normal and in fact what any police officer would advise.

Women expect the same amount of security in a women’s dressing room/shower, even if it is at a public gym or spa. The unexpected presence of a naked stranger with a male appearing body is seen as a threat, instinctively but also based on experience. Both by cultural conditioning, and by in too many cases, actual experience of sexual assault this is threatening to most women. The only way I see this as changing is if men stop sexually assaulting women.

It would help if men began to take women and their safety concerns seriously. That would be a good first step.

You have demonstrated repeatedly why I am not holding my breath for even that small step.

But you have used this as an argument that penises should not be allowed in women's spaces--but if they were allowed they would not longer be unexpected.

Why should they be allowed? Why are women not allowed to be safe?

Your argument sounds exactly like the same one that gun rights advocates make: Won’t we all be safer if we all carry concealed weapons? Or more accurately: Aren’t we all safer when we just need to assume anyone might be armed to the teeth?

Never mind the irony of gun advocates only feeling safe in broad day light at a convenience store of armed to the teeth—and in at least one case, insisting that women just need to get used to having naked people with penises in the women’s shower next to them. After all, no one is forcing women to go to gyms, right? And they have to know that women’s locker rims are open now to anyone who says they are a woman?

It sounds very very very much like telling a rape victim that if she didn’t want to be raped she should not have gone to a bar/worn that outfit/worn high heels/not gone out alone or without her boyfriend or to no longer be a virgin because what did she expect? She was obviously asking for it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you have used this as an argument that penises should not be allowed in women's spaces--but if they were allowed they would not longer be unexpected.

Why should they be allowed? Why are women not allowed to be safe?

Your argument sounds exactly like the same one that gun rights advocates make: Won’t we all be safer if we all carry concealed weapons? Or more accurately: Aren’t we all safer when we just need to assume anyone might be armed to the teeth?

Never mind the irony of gun advocates only feeling safe in broad day light at a convenience store of armed to the teeth—and in at least one case, insisting that women just need to get used to having naked people with penises in the women’s shower next to them. After all, no one is forcing women to go to gyms, right? And they have to know that women’s locker rims are open now to anyone who says they are a woman?

It sounds very very very much like telling a rape victim that if she didn’t want to be raped she should not have gone to a bar/worn that outfit/worn high heels/not gone out alone or without her boyfriend or to no longer be a virgin because what did she expect? She was obviously asking for it.

You're still ignoring the circular nature of your argument.

You say it's a threat because it's unexpected--but that's only because it's not legal (although in many places it is legal--and we don't see the predicted problems--we never heard much about this until the QOP started using it as a wedge issue.) If it were legal it wouldn't be unexpected!

 

[Toni]

But you have used this as an argument that penises should not be allowed in women's spaces--but if they were allowed they would not longer be unexpected.

Why should they be allowed? Why are women not allowed to be safe?

Your argument sounds exactly like the same one that gun rights advocates make: Won’t we all be safer if we all carry concealed weapons? Or more accurately: Aren’t we all safer when we just need to assume anyone might be armed to the teeth?

Never mind the irony of gun advocates only feeling safe in broad day light at a convenience store of armed to the teeth—and in at least one case, insisting that women just need to get used to having naked people with penises in the women’s shower next to them. After all, no one is forcing women to go to gyms, right? And they have to know that women’s locker rims are open now to anyone who says they are a woman?

It sounds very very very much like telling a rape victim that if she didn’t want to be raped she should not have gone to a bar/worn that outfit/worn high heels/not gone out alone or without her boyfriend or to no longer be a virgin because what did she expect? She was obviously asking for it.

You're still ignoring the circular nature of your argument.

You say it's a threat because it's unexpected--but that's only because it's not legal (although in many places it is legal--and we don't see the predicted problems--we never heard much about this until the QOP started using it as a wedge issue.) If it were legal it wouldn't be unexpected!

Actually, the predicted problems DO occur and indeed there have been multiple threads about this.

You are still demonstrating exactly why I wrote that some men do not seem to care at all about women. In your case, circular logic would be an improvement over your single insistence that women are not logical when they fear naked strangers with penises in women only spaces.

Your posts in response to me in this thread are illogical and insulting.

 

[TomC]

You are still demonstrating exactly why I wrote that some men do not seem to care at all about women.

That's not the way I remember it.

I don't think any male person cares about threats to women, tbh.

I found that both extremely false and also insulting.

There are males who don't seem to understand why women want a man-free place for personal business. But I'm not one nor am I the only one on IIDB who recognizes why.

And that's just here on this tiny forum, which is hardly representative of the rest of the world. I'm sure I'm in the majority of guys who quite understand why the general public needs to respect that "Women" sign on a restroom door. Why there are "Women's Divisions" for competitive sports leagues.

Yeah, most of us males get it. It isn't difficult to understand and it's not irrational or arbitrary. It's a reasonable reaction to the human situation and human failings.
Tom

 

[Toni]

You are still demonstrating exactly why I wrote that some men do not seem to care at all about women.

That's not the way I remember it.

I don't think any male person cares about threats to women, tbh.

I found that both extremely false and also insulting.

There are males who don't seem to understand why women want a man-free place for personal business. But I'm not one nor am I the only one on IIDB who recognizes why.

And that's just here on this tiny forum, which is hardly representative of the rest of the world. I'm sure I'm in the majority of guys who quite understand why the general public needs to respect that "Women" sign on a restroom door. Why there are "Women's Divisions" for competitive sports leagues.

Yeah, most of us males get it. It isn't difficult to understand and it's not irrational or arbitrary. It's a reasonable reaction to the human situation and human failings.
Tom

I’m not trying to be insulting. But I am very aware that I don’t know what it is like to be a man or a gay man or a person of color even if I have been married to a man for most of my life and have make children who are now grown men, make friends and other family members, friends and family who are gay or persons of color and so on.

Every human being has failings and many are shared amongst all of us humans. But it remains a fact that in the US and in Europe and Australia and New Zealand, most of those making the rules are white men and most of the rules are made from that perspective and consciously or not, are made to preserve the current power structure which happens to best support white men in charge. I’m not even assuming evil intentions. I’m simply aware of the limitations of my own perspective and realize that there are issues facing people who differ from me that I just am not aware of or invested in. Which, of course, is the reason that having representation from as many perspectives as possible is so vital to a free and just society.

But my observation is that most men are fine with work place structures that favor men m/men with spouses who manage the home life after there are children and who certainly assume that the make can be available for whatever work demands. I’m aware that this is not actually good or healthy for men. I’m aware of how much of standard medical care is based on what the norms for healthy white men under 40. I’m aware of how and why that came to be and I know from personal experience that this fails women and persons of color very badly. And much, much more.

Very few men will say they don’t care about women and women’s safety. I think many do care….. right up to the point where it inconveniences them or makes them feel bad or gasp! challenges how men look at women, how men treat women, how often men ignore or look away when women are being assaulted or harassed. Or how women are still treated in many work places. Or at doctor’s offices. For starters.

That makes it hard not to believe that men don’t really care about women. For the most part, men are in charge. And they change nothing or not nearly enough to bring women to parity. They call women bigots and worse for having concerns about their own physical safety. That’s not caring about women. That’s specifically not caring about women.

I am certain that all the people posting here are really genuinely good people.

But all of us have blind spots.

 

[Emily Lake]

But you have used this as an argument that penises should not be allowed in women's spaces--but if they were allowed they would not longer be unexpected.

Men: We think penises should totally be allowed in women's spaces, places where women are naked. We think it would be just great and no problem at all for penis-havers to be there, and to get to look at all the naked chics.

Women: No, we don't want penises in our private spaces. By and large, seeing a dick when we're naked and vulnerable causes us fear. At the very minimum, this is a space that is supposed to be just for women, so that we can be naked and also be safe. Seeing penises there is going to cause us to be startled and concerned.

Men: Oh, you're just overreacting. It'll be fine. There's no good reason for penises to have to stay out.

Women: Oh really? Rape, sexual assault, voyeurism, exhibitionism, and just plain intimidation are reasons we think are very, very good ones for barring penises from places where we're naked and vulnerable. We have enough of that in spaces where we're NOT naked and vulnerable, and adding penises to our single-sex spaces is going to make it worse.

Men: You're exaggerating, it's not that bad. Besides, people with penises who want to be in women's spaces are totally not ever going to do any of those things. We promise.

Women: We still say no. We think this is a bad idea. Most of us have been sexually victimized in our lives. At a bare minimum, seeing a penis where it's not expected is going to be a problem.

Men: Well here's the beauty of it - if those dicks are allowed to be hanging out in your naked spaces, they won't be unexpected - then you won't be surprised! Problem solved!

++++++++

Men: You know, if we just decriminalize voyeurism and exhibitionism, then they won't be crimes! Then women won't have any grounds for complaint when they get ogled or flashed, or when they get recorded without their permission and plastered across the internet. Because it's totally legal! We should get on that!

 

[Emily Lake]

I don't know what any of that has to do with the tik tok fantasy that a female can impregnate a female.