Barbie! Oh Noes!

[jab]

I don

I saw the movie. Barbie Land is initially faux woke. It's a fake world in a fake movie. The barbies live in a virtual matriarchy premised on barbie inspiring women's accomplishments in the real world. For ppl who think there is a message, they are deranged. It is clear the Barbies are clueless. Next, Barbie and Ken go to the real world and Ken sees patriarchical features and successes of men. He runs back to Barbie land to start a MRA revolution. It's fucking silly and humorous. It's a fucking movie. Then, Barbie goes back to Barbie land and undoes Ken's revolution, but she comes back "enlightened" to the contradictions of female identity and successes in the real world. So they are a matriarchy again, sort of, but Ken is also heard and men are being nominated to federal circuit judge positions just not Supreme Court yet. It's an obvious parody to real world history but in reverse. There's way more to the movie than political structure absurdity that conservatives scream about. I've just focused on that part in the post. Also, did I mention it's a silly movie that only morons or propagandists would take seriously?

I think you must not have listened to America Ferrera's speech then. I'm linking it here. I'd copy and paste the whole thing but I don't want to violate any copyright rules (even tho this is widely available on many media outlets:

Here's Every Word of America Ferrera's Big ‘Barbie’ Monologue

It took 30 takes to get, and Ferrera and Greta Gerwig spent months revising it.

www.elle.com

Every single word rang true and that's for me, an older middle class woman who never was a fan of Barbie. I can only imagine if you start throwing in poverty, being queer or not white, abused, dyslexic, disabled, etc. Or just underpaid and overworked, with or without kids but kids adds a whole lot of different layers to it all because still, however the kids turn out, it's the mom's fault, 100%.

I don't see that in conflict with what he said. It reminds me of Ginsburg's SCOTUS being all women being a shocking thought when it was all male for close to two hundred years.

And that's the problem. I like Don but he sees this as 'fake.' It's real. It's reality for every single girl and woman you or anyone else knows --at least in the US and I suspect in most of the Western world. Some have internalized it more than others to the extent that they don't even question it anymore. Think about it. Think about the maternal mortality rate in the US. Think about Serena Williams and Torie Bowie whose names most of us know and the many, many women whose names we don't know.

It's just not your reality.

We are discussing a movie in which faux feminists created a matriarchy. If you think that is real or proclaim it to be real, you are feeding into conservative paranoia. Feminism is about equality, not matriarchy. This was a movie and it was a comedy and like all comedies, it has some serious tidbits and moments but it remains a work of fiction. This monologue was one step away from one of those serious kind of moments in a comedy when a monologue happens as a crowd gathers around and then one guy starts clapping and it's the impetus for more clapping by the crowd. These are usually quite good and meaningful monologues but still fiction, even if meaningful.

Sure, I am a man who saw the movie and my wife is a woman who saw the movie and she thinks the whole bruhaha is ridiculous. Identity politics doesn't trump logic here, though. It's the content of the message and whether it is logical, not the color or gender of the person saying it. In this particular case of the fictional speech inside a fictional movie, yeah, sure there are bits of truth and seriousness, but there is also hyperbole meant as expression in a backdrop of comedy. Hyperbole remains hyperbole, even if there are rampant society and cultural biases against women. It is not 100% the woman's fault in our culture, even if the woman does most often get the short-end of the stick. For example, both Trump's parents are blamed for how he is raised. And Trump himself is blamed for how his spoiled children ended up. I got some blame myself as a stay-at-home dad for being flexible with my son during the pandemic during his school hours for letting him be more independent. Both parents get some blame some of the time. You are quoting a movie. A movie.

We live in a society of hyper-privilege where people have time to debate the Barbie movie. The Barbie movie and most of the people debating haven't even seen it! In the real world, there are institutional powers and patriarchal features literally killing females, trans persons, and minorities. Most recently a store owner was killed because she had a pride flag outside the store. The things that conservative institutions want to implement are that bad. Their clarion call right now is that the Barbie movie is feminist propaganda to brainwash young girls into forming a matriarchy and this is classic projection because we know they want the Make America Great Again patriarchy as they push back on freedoms for women.

I think it is important to tell them how absurd they are and not to validate their nightmares with hyperbolic language, including promoting the fictional work as reality.

Wow. In retrospect, it occurs to me that it may have been unclear that I did go see the movie. I have. I didn’t know whether I’d like it, despite Gerwig, and am a little surprised at how much I did like it.

You know, women are genuinely accustomed to laying down and just taking whatever some man says we have to take. Shit, women were expected to give up their jobs ( and ambitions and economic security) when men came back from WWII. And all the other wars before. We’re expected to not stand up for ourselves but to allow the word woman to be expunged from obstetrics and gynecology. We’re expected to allow old men who have no idea about the medical biological realities of female bodies, pregnancy, childbirth, birth control, miscarriage, abortion, rape to tell us what is and is not real, important, right or our right.

And now because this movie does not address rape, the dismal maternal death rate, trans rights, it’s somehow self indulgent and fake. Not feminist.

Very helpful to have a man explain all of this to me. How nice that you took time out of your busy man day to help me understand that it doesn’t count unless we’re talking about murder and rape and trans rights.

As if any girl or woman gets to forget about rape and murder and domestic violence. There’s always some man to remind us of all the ways they can and do hurt us just to prove they can. Lots of times they are fathers and brothers and friends who mean well. Not well enough to address the sickness that predisposes men to violence. But still, it’s helpful to be reminded that women’s problems aren’t really problems unless someone ends up bleeding or bruised or dead.

Reminds me of when my dad used to tell us to stop crying or he’d give us something to cry about.

Liked this, but can you please explain, "the sickness that predisposes men to violence"?
Informative to know that, for instance, Lucy Letby & Elizabeth Wettlaufer & Susan Smith did not have this same sickness,

 

[Toni]

What I tire of is all the whining whenever there is something female or minority based in media. It happens every time! Barbie is just one in a long line of examples of conservatives losing their shit

Really? I see a lot more fauxgressives losing their shit about conservatives supposedly losing their shit. It's like with AOC's dancing a few years ago. Some lone conservative may have tweeted something, and thousands of illibs were retweeting.

because they feel emasculated cheering on a female or minority protagonist.

From what I have seen, the whole point of the Barbie movie is that it emasculates man. "Barbie World" is, from what I have read, meant to be some sort of radical feminist utopia where men are kept down. Even progs like Don2 and Cheerful Charlie admit it, only they think it's some sort of "satire" and not a vehicle to indoctrinate young girls into radfem "philosophy".

Hell, Ken is the ideal man for the Andrea Dworkin/Julie Bindel style feminists.

Star Wars,

The Disney Star Wars movies have been dreck. The first one was totally unimaginative with another death star, just bigger and with a couple of trees stuck in it. The woke elements were just a rotten cherry on that shit sundae. I do not mind female and non-white protagonists like Fin, but white characters have been almost completely sidelined. And existing characters like Han and Luke were not handled well and were quickly killed off.

The Ghostbusters (female version),

That movie was bad and Paul Feig should feel bad. Besides, the gender reversal was done just for gender reversal sake. Not to mention that they completely objectified the male receptionist, something the original Ghostbusters did not do with their female receptionist.

with the US Women's National Soccer team, where people are openly hoping they fail because they dared to demand equal pay...

I did not hope they fail, but the demand for "equal pay" was ridiculous. They are competing at very different levels (they could be beat by an U-14 male team), and with very different viewership. They should not be automatically getting equal pay if they do not generate equal ticket sales and TV viewership. Pro sports is basically entertainment.

as if the men's game gets a lot of money because the US men's team is remotely competitive.

Men's world cup generates much bigger global viewership numbers.

Bud fucking Light?! You dare to be inclusive! *violence*

I have not seen any violence against Bud Light, just calls for boycotts. Hysterical much?

1. Barbie the movie does not emasculate men. It does focus on Barbie and women as entities whose lives are not centered on men or the male gaze.

2. Ghostbusters with the female cast was great! I write this as a big Ghostbusters fan. I’m sorry for all the men who could not get over the fact that the movie was cast with female leads abc the male was very sexualized —in an over the top, comedic way. If the sexualization of a male character in a film with a predominately female cast makes some men uncomfortable, then good: that’s a very tiny taste of what it is like to be female in the US.

Who the fuck cares if there are boycotts against Bud Light? Don’t all people with a modicum of taste ( literally) simply buy better beer?

 

[Toni]

I don

I saw the movie. Barbie Land is initially faux woke. It's a fake world in a fake movie. The barbies live in a virtual matriarchy premised on barbie inspiring women's accomplishments in the real world. For ppl who think there is a message, they are deranged. It is clear the Barbies are clueless. Next, Barbie and Ken go to the real world and Ken sees patriarchical features and successes of men. He runs back to Barbie land to start a MRA revolution. It's fucking silly and humorous. It's a fucking movie. Then, Barbie goes back to Barbie land and undoes Ken's revolution, but she comes back "enlightened" to the contradictions of female identity and successes in the real world. So they are a matriarchy again, sort of, but Ken is also heard and men are being nominated to federal circuit judge positions just not Supreme Court yet. It's an obvious parody to real world history but in reverse. There's way more to the movie than political structure absurdity that conservatives scream about. I've just focused on that part in the post. Also, did I mention it's a silly movie that only morons or propagandists would take seriously?

I think you must not have listened to America Ferrera's speech then. I'm linking it here. I'd copy and paste the whole thing but I don't want to violate any copyright rules (even tho this is widely available on many media outlets:

Here's Every Word of America Ferrera's Big ‘Barbie’ Monologue

It took 30 takes to get, and Ferrera and Greta Gerwig spent months revising it.

www.elle.com

Every single word rang true and that's for me, an older middle class woman who never was a fan of Barbie. I can only imagine if you start throwing in poverty, being queer or not white, abused, dyslexic, disabled, etc. Or just underpaid and overworked, with or without kids but kids adds a whole lot of different layers to it all because still, however the kids turn out, it's the mom's fault, 100%.

I don't see that in conflict with what he said. It reminds me of Ginsburg's SCOTUS being all women being a shocking thought when it was all male for close to two hundred years.

And that's the problem. I like Don but he sees this as 'fake.' It's real. It's reality for every single girl and woman you or anyone else knows --at least in the US and I suspect in most of the Western world. Some have internalized it more than others to the extent that they don't even question it anymore. Think about it. Think about the maternal mortality rate in the US. Think about Serena Williams and Torie Bowie whose names most of us know and the many, many women whose names we don't know.

It's just not your reality.

We are discussing a movie in which faux feminists created a matriarchy. If you think that is real or proclaim it to be real, you are feeding into conservative paranoia. Feminism is about equality, not matriarchy. This was a movie and it was a comedy and like all comedies, it has some serious tidbits and moments but it remains a work of fiction. This monologue was one step away from one of those serious kind of moments in a comedy when a monologue happens as a crowd gathers around and then one guy starts clapping and it's the impetus for more clapping by the crowd. These are usually quite good and meaningful monologues but still fiction, even if meaningful.

Sure, I am a man who saw the movie and my wife is a woman who saw the movie and she thinks the whole bruhaha is ridiculous. Identity politics doesn't trump logic here, though. It's the content of the message and whether it is logical, not the color or gender of the person saying it. In this particular case of the fictional speech inside a fictional movie, yeah, sure there are bits of truth and seriousness, but there is also hyperbole meant as expression in a backdrop of comedy. Hyperbole remains hyperbole, even if there are rampant society and cultural biases against women. It is not 100% the woman's fault in our culture, even if the woman does most often get the short-end of the stick. For example, both Trump's parents are blamed for how he is raised. And Trump himself is blamed for how his spoiled children ended up. I got some blame myself as a stay-at-home dad for being flexible with my son during the pandemic during his school hours for letting him be more independent. Both parents get some blame some of the time. You are quoting a movie. A movie.

We live in a society of hyper-privilege where people have time to debate the Barbie movie. The Barbie movie and most of the people debating haven't even seen it! In the real world, there are institutional powers and patriarchal features literally killing females, trans persons, and minorities. Most recently a store owner was killed because she had a pride flag outside the store. The things that conservative institutions want to implement are that bad. Their clarion call right now is that the Barbie movie is feminist propaganda to brainwash young girls into forming a matriarchy and this is classic projection because we know they want the Make America Great Again patriarchy as they push back on freedoms for women.

I think it is important to tell them how absurd they are and not to validate their nightmares with hyperbolic language, including promoting the fictional work as reality.

Wow. In retrospect, it occurs to me that it may have been unclear that I did go see the movie. I have. I didn’t know whether I’d like it, despite Gerwig, and am a little surprised at how much I did like it.

You know, women are genuinely accustomed to laying down and just taking whatever some man says we have to take. Shit, women were expected to give up their jobs ( and ambitions and economic security) when men came back from WWII. And all the other wars before. We’re expected to not stand up for ourselves but to allow the word woman to be expunged from obstetrics and gynecology. We’re expected to allow old men who have no idea about the medical biological realities of female bodies, pregnancy, childbirth, birth control, miscarriage, abortion, rape to tell us what is and is not real, important, right or our right.

And now because this movie does not address rape, the dismal maternal death rate, trans rights, it’s somehow self indulgent and fake. Not feminist.

Very helpful to have a man explain all of this to me. How nice that you took time out of your busy man day to help me understand that it doesn’t count unless we’re talking about murder and rape and trans rights.

As if any girl or woman gets to forget about rape and murder and domestic violence. There’s always some man to remind us of all the ways they can and do hurt us just to prove they can. Lots of times they are fathers and brothers and friends who mean well. Not well enough to address the sickness that predisposes men to violence. But still, it’s helpful to be reminded that women’s problems aren’t really problems unless someone ends up bleeding or bruised or dead.

Reminds me of when my dad used to tell us to stop crying or he’d give us something to cry about.

Liked this, but can you please explain, "the sickness that predisposes men to violence"?
Informative to know that, for instance, Lucy Letby & Elizabeth Wettlaufer & Susan Smith did not have this same sickness,

Please look up crime statistics and you will discover that the vast majority of all violent crime is committed by males. This is not to say that women cannot commit violent crimes. They do. But not at nearly the same rates that men do. In fact, for every crime except prostitution, men outnumber women as perpetrators. Only when it comes to fraud and embezzlement are women close to men in numbers who commit such crimes.

 

[jab]

I'm not a fan of newer movies. I don't even have the attention span to watch them, but it sounds like a satire to me, based on some of the comments. Is the movie satirizing male dominance by making up a world dominated by females, or am I missing something?

The amazing thing to me, is that some men seem annoyed by a movie about a pretend matriarchy, based on what was once referred to back in my day, as a "teenage doll". Too bad we didn't evolve to be more like bonobos, instead of chimps. That way we would have always been part of a peaceful, sexy matriarchy, instead of a violent, greedy patriarchy.

But Barbie land isn't very sexy in the movie. And the satire is partly about gender reversal in the Barbieland, where the Kens are decorative beach bunnies, and their biggest desire is a romantic relationship with a Barbie, but the Barbies are into material goods and careers and friendships, but not romance. The satire is quite good, but first it hedges its bets --not wanting to offend Mattel's product or indict gobble-it-up consumerist capitalism, and then the movie becomes very preachy--it tells and tells and tells the audience what it all means, instead of continuing satirically to show. My sister explained to me that this was necessary to reach the understanding of little girls in the audience, like her 8-year old granddaughter. But then I wondered why the little girls needed jokes about sex thrown in frequently--including sneering, but funny jokes about gay sex among the Kens.

 

[jab]

No one I know believes that Hillary deserved to be president because she is female.

There probably are people like that.
I'm not one.

I didn't even like Hillary the high powered Neolib very much. I'm just not into that political spectrum all that much.

But the fact is she rose to the top, despite being a girl politician. She had to be twice as good as her male counterparts to get anywhere. But she kicked ass. I wanted her, in 2016, because I was confident that she could outperform Sanders on his own platform. Because she was better at her game than Slick Willy.

She was like the Ginger in Astaire and Rodgers. She did everything he did, only backwards and in high heels.
Tom

There were better women than Hillary (nepotism) Clinton, I thought, just as Rita Hayworth, Vera-Ellen, Eleanor Powell, did it even better than Ginger Rogers with and without Fred Astaire.

 

[jab]

An odd comment seeing Astaire was entirely self taught. Also, Astaire did a lot more dance overall. Rogers was the better actor.

So, Rogers was professionally trained AND she did everything Astaire did except backwards and in heels.

Challenge to all men: walk around the block wearing a pair of high heel shoes.

challenge to women and men--stop thinking that women should wear heels.

 

[jab]

Challenge to all men: walk around the block wearing a pair of high heel shoes.

I'd rather go sky diving as a grand entry into deep sea diving than wear high heels.

Yeah, most of us get there. I’m down to kitten heels on those rare occasions

It’s my duty as a man to explain to you that you don’t need to wear heels if you don’t want to. You’re welcome.

Quite possibly one of the oddest things in the world... high heels. For the life of me, I have no idea why they exist still. Burned the bras but not the high heels?!

I have a nonexistent Strange Planet comic floating in my mind of the alien onlookers remarking something of the like
A: "Impressive, they haven't fallen."
B: *nods* "And they hide the discomfort well."

What would they call them? Foot slopes?

And after a second of searching:

Spoiler

High heels started in the 10th century to help men keep their feet in stirrups and since then were worn by men to convey a lot of things, including power and status and wealth.

Women began wearing them later but both men and women have long worn platform shoes both to convey status and also to protect themselves from dirty conditions.

Women today wear high heels because it's fashionable. For a long time, when I was young, it was virtually impossible to find a pair of dress shoes suitable for wearing to an office which were not high heels. I'm short and have small feet, so whatever issues an average height woman has with heels are compounded by someone whose feet are small and for whom a 3 inch heel is extremely tall. Now, there are more/better choices than heels. As a side note, someone I knew (generation after me) told me that a sizeable chunk of the women in her DO program were going into podiatry as a basis for working in the shoe industry---to design more comfortable/less damaging heels for women. There actually are some comfort lines of heels but after a certain age, even those are a no-go.

The reality is that most clothes are designed for women who are at least 5'9 and weigh at most 110 lbs: walking stick insects. The illusion of a long, lean silhouette is still a standard of beauty, desirability, status, wealth, fashion. Frankly, a lot of clothes look better if you are wearing heels. Also if you are at least 5'9, and weigh no more than 110 lbs but heels are more achievable.

Challenge to all men: walk around the block wearing a pair of high heel shoes.

I'd rather go sky diving as a grand entry into deep sea diving than wear high heels.

Yeah, most of us get there. I’m down to kitten heels on those rare occasions

It’s my duty as a man to explain to you that you don’t need to wear heels if you don’t want to. You’re welcome.

Quite possibly one of the oddest things in the world... high heels. For the life of me, I have no idea why they exist still. Burned the bras but not the high heels?!

I have a nonexistent Strange Planet comic floating in my mind of the alien onlookers remarking something of the like
A: "Impressive, they haven't fallen."
B: *nods* "And they hide the discomfort well."

What would they call them? Foot slopes?

And after a second of searching:

Spoiler

High heels started in the 10th century to help men keep their feet in stirrups and since then were worn by men to convey a lot of things, including power and status and wealth.

Women began wearing them later but both men and women have long worn platform shoes both to convey status and also to protect themselves from dirty conditions.

Women today wear high heels because it's fashionable. For a long time, when I was young, it was virtually impossible to find a pair of dress shoes suitable for wearing to an office which were not high heels. I'm short and have small feet, so whatever issues an average height woman has with heels are compounded by someone whose feet are small and for whom a 3 inch heel is extremely tall. Now, there are more/better choices than heels. As a side note, someone I knew (generation after me) told me that a sizeable chunk of the women in her DO program were going into podiatry as a basis for working in the shoe industry---to design more comfortable/less damaging heels for women. There actually are some comfort lines of heels but after a certain age, even those are a no-go.

The reality is that most clothes are designed for women who are at least 5'9 and weigh at most 110 lbs: walking stick insects. The illusion of a long, lean silhouette is still a standard of beauty, desirability, status, wealth, fashion. Frankly, a lot of clothes look better if you are wearing heels. Also if you are at least 5'9, and weigh no more than 110 lbs but heels are more achievable.

And how does the movie under discussion challenge this reality?

 

[jab]

I don

I saw the movie. Barbie Land is initially faux woke. It's a fake world in a fake movie. The barbies live in a virtual matriarchy premised on barbie inspiring women's accomplishments in the real world. For ppl who think there is a message, they are deranged. It is clear the Barbies are clueless. Next, Barbie and Ken go to the real world and Ken sees patriarchical features and successes of men. He runs back to Barbie land to start a MRA revolution. It's fucking silly and humorous. It's a fucking movie. Then, Barbie goes back to Barbie land and undoes Ken's revolution, but she comes back "enlightened" to the contradictions of female identity and successes in the real world. So they are a matriarchy again, sort of, but Ken is also heard and men are being nominated to federal circuit judge positions just not Supreme Court yet. It's an obvious parody to real world history but in reverse. There's way more to the movie than political structure absurdity that conservatives scream about. I've just focused on that part in the post. Also, did I mention it's a silly movie that only morons or propagandists would take seriously?

I think you must not have listened to America Ferrera's speech then. I'm linking it here. I'd copy and paste the whole thing but I don't want to violate any copyright rules (even tho this is widely available on many media outlets:

Here's Every Word of America Ferrera's Big ‘Barbie’ Monologue

It took 30 takes to get, and Ferrera and Greta Gerwig spent months revising it.

www.elle.com

Every single word rang true and that's for me, an older middle class woman who never was a fan of Barbie. I can only imagine if you start throwing in poverty, being queer or not white, abused, dyslexic, disabled, etc. Or just underpaid and overworked, with or without kids but kids adds a whole lot of different layers to it all because still, however the kids turn out, it's the mom's fault, 100%.

I don't see that in conflict with what he said. It reminds me of Ginsburg's SCOTUS being all women being a shocking thought when it was all male for close to two hundred years.

And that's the problem. I like Don but he sees this as 'fake.' It's real. It's reality for every single girl and woman you or anyone else knows --at least in the US and I suspect in most of the Western world. Some have internalized it more than others to the extent that they don't even question it anymore. Think about it. Think about the maternal mortality rate in the US. Think about Serena Williams and Torie Bowie whose names most of us know and the many, many women whose names we don't know.

It's just not your reality.

We are discussing a movie in which faux feminists created a matriarchy. If you think that is real or proclaim it to be real, you are feeding into conservative paranoia. Feminism is about equality, not matriarchy. This was a movie and it was a comedy and like all comedies, it has some serious tidbits and moments but it remains a work of fiction. This monologue was one step away from one of those serious kind of moments in a comedy when a monologue happens as a crowd gathers around and then one guy starts clapping and it's the impetus for more clapping by the crowd. These are usually quite good and meaningful monologues but still fiction, even if meaningful.

Sure, I am a man who saw the movie and my wife is a woman who saw the movie and she thinks the whole bruhaha is ridiculous. Identity politics doesn't trump logic here, though. It's the content of the message and whether it is logical, not the color or gender of the person saying it. In this particular case of the fictional speech inside a fictional movie, yeah, sure there are bits of truth and seriousness, but there is also hyperbole meant as expression in a backdrop of comedy. Hyperbole remains hyperbole, even if there are rampant society and cultural biases against women. It is not 100% the woman's fault in our culture, even if the woman does most often get the short-end of the stick. For example, both Trump's parents are blamed for how he is raised. And Trump himself is blamed for how his spoiled children ended up. I got some blame myself as a stay-at-home dad for being flexible with my son during the pandemic during his school hours for letting him be more independent. Both parents get some blame some of the time. You are quoting a movie. A movie.

We live in a society of hyper-privilege where people have time to debate the Barbie movie. The Barbie movie and most of the people debating haven't even seen it! In the real world, there are institutional powers and patriarchal features literally killing females, trans persons, and minorities. Most recently a store owner was killed because she had a pride flag outside the store. The things that conservative institutions want to implement are that bad. Their clarion call right now is that the Barbie movie is feminist propaganda to brainwash young girls into forming a matriarchy and this is classic projection because we know they want the Make America Great Again patriarchy as they push back on freedoms for women.

I think it is important to tell them how absurd they are and not to validate their nightmares with hyperbolic language, including promoting the fictional work as reality.

Wow. In retrospect, it occurs to me that it may have been unclear that I did go see the movie. I have. I didn’t know whether I’d like it, despite Gerwig, and am a little surprised at how much I did like it.

You know, women are genuinely accustomed to laying down and just taking whatever some man says we have to take. Shit, women were expected to give up their jobs ( and ambitions and economic security) when men came back from WWII. And all the other wars before. We’re expected to not stand up for ourselves but to allow the word woman to be expunged from obstetrics and gynecology. We’re expected to allow old men who have no idea about the medical biological realities of female bodies, pregnancy, childbirth, birth control, miscarriage, abortion, rape to tell us what is and is not real, important, right or our right.

And now because this movie does not address rape, the dismal maternal death rate, trans rights, it’s somehow self indulgent and fake. Not feminist.

Very helpful to have a man explain all of this to me. How nice that you took time out of your busy man day to help me understand that it doesn’t count unless we’re talking about murder and rape and trans rights.

As if any girl or woman gets to forget about rape and murder and domestic violence. There’s always some man to remind us of all the ways they can and do hurt us just to prove they can. Lots of times they are fathers and brothers and friends who mean well. Not well enough to address the sickness that predisposes men to violence. But still, it’s helpful to be reminded that women’s problems aren’t really problems unless someone ends up bleeding or bruised or dead.

Reminds me of when my dad used to tell us to stop crying or he’d give us something to cry about.

Liked this, but can you please explain, "the sickness that predisposes men to violence"?
Informative to know that, for instance, Lucy Letby & Elizabeth Wettlaufer & Susan Smith did not have this same sickness,

Please look up crime statistics and you will discover that the vast majority of all violent crime is committed by males. This is not to say that women cannot commit violent crimes. They do. But not at nearly the same rates that men do. In fact, for every crime except prostitution, men outnumber women as perpetrators. Only when it comes to fraud and embezzlement are women close to men in numbers who commit such crimes.

you didn't answer my question; nor did you did deal with women's capacity for violence--is it intrinsically different than men's, in your opinion?

 

[Patooka]

The other post pandemic movie we saw was the last Indiana Jones, which was a vast improvement over #3 but it's good it's the last one.

That's...an interesting take. Most people's favourite is either 1 or 3, with 4 being the worst.

 

[Toni]

The other post pandemic movie we saw was the last Indiana Jones, which was a vast improvement over #3 but it's good it's the last one.

That's...an interesting take. Most people's favourite is either 1 or 3, with 4 being the worst.

OMG, you're right. I forgot #2. The very worst film was #4 the stupid Crystal Skull thing. In order, I think they are #1, #3, #5, #2 and #4. I am leaving out the young Indiana Jones stuff.

 

[Toni]

I don

I saw the movie. Barbie Land is initially faux woke. It's a fake world in a fake movie. The barbies live in a virtual matriarchy premised on barbie inspiring women's accomplishments in the real world. For ppl who think there is a message, they are deranged. It is clear the Barbies are clueless. Next, Barbie and Ken go to the real world and Ken sees patriarchical features and successes of men. He runs back to Barbie land to start a MRA revolution. It's fucking silly and humorous. It's a fucking movie. Then, Barbie goes back to Barbie land and undoes Ken's revolution, but she comes back "enlightened" to the contradictions of female identity and successes in the real world. So they are a matriarchy again, sort of, but Ken is also heard and men are being nominated to federal circuit judge positions just not Supreme Court yet. It's an obvious parody to real world history but in reverse. There's way more to the movie than political structure absurdity that conservatives scream about. I've just focused on that part in the post. Also, did I mention it's a silly movie that only morons or propagandists would take seriously?

I think you must not have listened to America Ferrera's speech then. I'm linking it here. I'd copy and paste the whole thing but I don't want to violate any copyright rules (even tho this is widely available on many media outlets:

Here's Every Word of America Ferrera's Big ‘Barbie’ Monologue

It took 30 takes to get, and Ferrera and Greta Gerwig spent months revising it.

www.elle.com

Every single word rang true and that's for me, an older middle class woman who never was a fan of Barbie. I can only imagine if you start throwing in poverty, being queer or not white, abused, dyslexic, disabled, etc. Or just underpaid and overworked, with or without kids but kids adds a whole lot of different layers to it all because still, however the kids turn out, it's the mom's fault, 100%.

I don't see that in conflict with what he said. It reminds me of Ginsburg's SCOTUS being all women being a shocking thought when it was all male for close to two hundred years.

And that's the problem. I like Don but he sees this as 'fake.' It's real. It's reality for every single girl and woman you or anyone else knows --at least in the US and I suspect in most of the Western world. Some have internalized it more than others to the extent that they don't even question it anymore. Think about it. Think about the maternal mortality rate in the US. Think about Serena Williams and Torie Bowie whose names most of us know and the many, many women whose names we don't know.

It's just not your reality.

We are discussing a movie in which faux feminists created a matriarchy. If you think that is real or proclaim it to be real, you are feeding into conservative paranoia. Feminism is about equality, not matriarchy. This was a movie and it was a comedy and like all comedies, it has some serious tidbits and moments but it remains a work of fiction. This monologue was one step away from one of those serious kind of moments in a comedy when a monologue happens as a crowd gathers around and then one guy starts clapping and it's the impetus for more clapping by the crowd. These are usually quite good and meaningful monologues but still fiction, even if meaningful.

Sure, I am a man who saw the movie and my wife is a woman who saw the movie and she thinks the whole bruhaha is ridiculous. Identity politics doesn't trump logic here, though. It's the content of the message and whether it is logical, not the color or gender of the person saying it. In this particular case of the fictional speech inside a fictional movie, yeah, sure there are bits of truth and seriousness, but there is also hyperbole meant as expression in a backdrop of comedy. Hyperbole remains hyperbole, even if there are rampant society and cultural biases against women. It is not 100% the woman's fault in our culture, even if the woman does most often get the short-end of the stick. For example, both Trump's parents are blamed for how he is raised. And Trump himself is blamed for how his spoiled children ended up. I got some blame myself as a stay-at-home dad for being flexible with my son during the pandemic during his school hours for letting him be more independent. Both parents get some blame some of the time. You are quoting a movie. A movie.

We live in a society of hyper-privilege where people have time to debate the Barbie movie. The Barbie movie and most of the people debating haven't even seen it! In the real world, there are institutional powers and patriarchal features literally killing females, trans persons, and minorities. Most recently a store owner was killed because she had a pride flag outside the store. The things that conservative institutions want to implement are that bad. Their clarion call right now is that the Barbie movie is feminist propaganda to brainwash young girls into forming a matriarchy and this is classic projection because we know they want the Make America Great Again patriarchy as they push back on freedoms for women.

I think it is important to tell them how absurd they are and not to validate their nightmares with hyperbolic language, including promoting the fictional work as reality.

Wow. In retrospect, it occurs to me that it may have been unclear that I did go see the movie. I have. I didn’t know whether I’d like it, despite Gerwig, and am a little surprised at how much I did like it.

You know, women are genuinely accustomed to laying down and just taking whatever some man says we have to take. Shit, women were expected to give up their jobs ( and ambitions and economic security) when men came back from WWII. And all the other wars before. We’re expected to not stand up for ourselves but to allow the word woman to be expunged from obstetrics and gynecology. We’re expected to allow old men who have no idea about the medical biological realities of female bodies, pregnancy, childbirth, birth control, miscarriage, abortion, rape to tell us what is and is not real, important, right or our right.

And now because this movie does not address rape, the dismal maternal death rate, trans rights, it’s somehow self indulgent and fake. Not feminist.

Very helpful to have a man explain all of this to me. How nice that you took time out of your busy man day to help me understand that it doesn’t count unless we’re talking about murder and rape and trans rights.

As if any girl or woman gets to forget about rape and murder and domestic violence. There’s always some man to remind us of all the ways they can and do hurt us just to prove they can. Lots of times they are fathers and brothers and friends who mean well. Not well enough to address the sickness that predisposes men to violence. But still, it’s helpful to be reminded that women’s problems aren’t really problems unless someone ends up bleeding or bruised or dead.

Reminds me of when my dad used to tell us to stop crying or he’d give us something to cry about.

Liked this, but can you please explain, "the sickness that predisposes men to violence"?
Informative to know that, for instance, Lucy Letby & Elizabeth Wettlaufer & Susan Smith did not have this same sickness,

Please look up crime statistics and you will discover that the vast majority of all violent crime is committed by males. This is not to say that women cannot commit violent crimes. They do. But not at nearly the same rates that men do. In fact, for every crime except prostitution, men outnumber women as perpetrators. Only when it comes to fraud and embezzlement are women close to men in numbers who commit such crimes.

you didn't answer my question; nor did you did deal with women's capacity for violence--is it intrinsically different than men's, in your opinion?

I dealt with it to the extent that I intended to deal with it. I don't have any good answers as to why men are more violent but they seem to be much more prone to violence compared with women. I am certain some of it is socialization but I wonder if that's the entire story.

I grew up with sisters and know for a fact that girls and women are capable of violence-towards each other and in self defense but also as initiators in some cases. The propensity towards violence seems less than in males. Is it the influence of testosterone, which is present in much greater levels in males than in females? Does it begin in utero, during prenatal development, when testosterone first stimulates the growth of male fetus's amygdala? I don't know.

 

[Patooka]

The other post pandemic movie we saw was the last Indiana Jones, which was a vast improvement over #3 but it's good it's the last one.

That's...an interesting take. Most people's favourite is either 1 or 3, with 4 being the worst.

OMG, you're right. I forgot #2. The very worst film was #4 the stupid Crystal Skull thing. In order, I think they are #1, #3, #5, #2 and #4. I am leaving out the young Indiana Jones stuff.

Yeah, #2 was basically "Indiana Jones and how not to divorce".

 

[Toni]

Challenge to all men: walk around the block wearing a pair of high heel shoes.

I'd rather go sky diving as a grand entry into deep sea diving than wear high heels.

Yeah, most of us get there. I’m down to kitten heels on those rare occasions

It’s my duty as a man to explain to you that you don’t need to wear heels if you don’t want to. You’re welcome.

Quite possibly one of the oddest things in the world... high heels. For the life of me, I have no idea why they exist still. Burned the bras but not the high heels?!

I have a nonexistent Strange Planet comic floating in my mind of the alien onlookers remarking something of the like
A: "Impressive, they haven't fallen."
B: *nods* "And they hide the discomfort well."

What would they call them? Foot slopes?

And after a second of searching:

Spoiler

High heels started in the 10th century to help men keep their feet in stirrups and since then were worn by men to convey a lot of things, including power and status and wealth.

Women began wearing them later but both men and women have long worn platform shoes both to convey status and also to protect themselves from dirty conditions.

Women today wear high heels because it's fashionable. For a long time, when I was young, it was virtually impossible to find a pair of dress shoes suitable for wearing to an office which were not high heels. I'm short and have small feet, so whatever issues an average height woman has with heels are compounded by someone whose feet are small and for whom a 3 inch heel is extremely tall. Now, there are more/better choices than heels. As a side note, someone I knew (generation after me) told me that a sizeable chunk of the women in her DO program were going into podiatry as a basis for working in the shoe industry---to design more comfortable/less damaging heels for women. There actually are some comfort lines of heels but after a certain age, even those are a no-go.

The reality is that most clothes are designed for women who are at least 5'9 and weigh at most 110 lbs: walking stick insects. The illusion of a long, lean silhouette is still a standard of beauty, desirability, status, wealth, fashion. Frankly, a lot of clothes look better if you are wearing heels. Also if you are at least 5'9, and weigh no more than 110 lbs but heels are more achievable.

Challenge to all men: walk around the block wearing a pair of high heel shoes.

I'd rather go sky diving as a grand entry into deep sea diving than wear high heels.

Yeah, most of us get there. I’m down to kitten heels on those rare occasions

It’s my duty as a man to explain to you that you don’t need to wear heels if you don’t want to. You’re welcome.

Quite possibly one of the oddest things in the world... high heels. For the life of me, I have no idea why they exist still. Burned the bras but not the high heels?!

I have a nonexistent Strange Planet comic floating in my mind of the alien onlookers remarking something of the like
A: "Impressive, they haven't fallen."
B: *nods* "And they hide the discomfort well."

What would they call them? Foot slopes?

And after a second of searching:

Spoiler

High heels started in the 10th century to help men keep their feet in stirrups and since then were worn by men to convey a lot of things, including power and status and wealth.

Women began wearing them later but both men and women have long worn platform shoes both to convey status and also to protect themselves from dirty conditions.

Women today wear high heels because it's fashionable. For a long time, when I was young, it was virtually impossible to find a pair of dress shoes suitable for wearing to an office which were not high heels. I'm short and have small feet, so whatever issues an average height woman has with heels are compounded by someone whose feet are small and for whom a 3 inch heel is extremely tall. Now, there are more/better choices than heels. As a side note, someone I knew (generation after me) told me that a sizeable chunk of the women in her DO program were going into podiatry as a basis for working in the shoe industry---to design more comfortable/less damaging heels for women. There actually are some comfort lines of heels but after a certain age, even those are a no-go.

The reality is that most clothes are designed for women who are at least 5'9 and weigh at most 110 lbs: walking stick insects. The illusion of a long, lean silhouette is still a standard of beauty, desirability, status, wealth, fashion. Frankly, a lot of clothes look better if you are wearing heels. Also if you are at least 5'9, and weigh no more than 110 lbs but heels are more achievable.

And how does the movie under discussion challenge this reality?

Did I suggest that it does?

Although if you pay any attention at all, you will notice that Margot Robbie's Stereotypical Barbie developed flat feet once she began to have her existential crisis.

 

[jab]

The reality is that most clothes are designed for women who are at least 5'9 and weigh at most 110 lbs: walking stick insects. The illusion of a long, lean silhouette is still a standard of beauty, desirability, status, wealth, fashion. Frankly, a lot of clothes look better if you are wearing heels. Also if you are at least 5'9, and weigh no more than 110 lbs but heels are more achievable.

And how does the movie under discussion challenge this reality?

Did I suggest that it does?

Although if you pay any attention at all, you will notice that Margot Robbie's Stereotypical Barbie developed flat feet once she began to have her existential crisis.

good point about the feet. However, the reality you refer to is much wider than that,

 

[jab]

The other post pandemic movie we saw was the last Indiana Jones, which was a vast improvement over #3 but it's good it's the last one.

That's...an interesting take. Most people's favourite is either 1 or 3, with 4 being the worst.

I liked it better than the Crystal Skull one, I liked Barbie better than the Crystal Skull one.

 

[TomC]

There were better women than Hillary (nepotism) Clinton, I thought,

I hear ya.
That nepotism thing had a lot to do with why I didn't want her in 2008.
But after watching the Obama administration, I came to value Clinton's experience and clout.
Tom

 

[jab]

And people were pissing their pants when Biden said it'd be a black woman...

Nobody pissed themselves. But he was rightly criticized for limiting himself like that just to score political points and to win South Carolina. It was the new corrupt bargain between him and Jim Clyburn.

cause that ain't fair to all the white candidates out there.

Every candidate should be evaluated on their merit. And Dems have not put a man on SCOTUS since 1994 - almost 30 years ago!

Your phrasing, "Dems have not put a man on SCOTUS", manages to pass over Merrick Garland's nomination without outright denying it. I thought that Biden's response to the Repugs obstructionism in the US Senate, 4 years later, was viciously appropriate: "You wouldn't even consider our qualified old(ish) white male nominee"--okay, I guarantee you're going to have to wrap your heads around a qualified black woman nominee."
Best joke in Barbie, Stereotypical Barbie, having emerged from little-girl Fantasy Land where you can have your career and stunner looks and wardrobe too, mistakes a "real-world" billboard of beauty pageant contestants for a portrait honoring the Supreme Court.
Speaking tangentially of the law and Barbie, let's think of the legal institution of marriage. The most mendacious thing about the movie is that it purports to cover all the main versions of Barbie (and Ken), but completely omits Bridal (or Wedding) Barbie, sometimes sold in a package with Bridegroom Ken. (Sometimes the two toys are sold separately.) To have included this popular iteration of the line would have, shall we say, complicated the movie's message that Barbie merchandize teaches little girls the feminist message: close one-on-one relationships with men are not at all important. Just as including open consideration of Garland's nomination would have complicated Derec's message about the excessive wokeness of the "Dems".

 

[TomC]

Your phrasing, "Dems have not put a man on SCOTUS", manages to pass over Merrick Garland's nomination without outright denying it. I thought that Biden's response to the Repugs obstructionism in the US Senate, 4 years later, was viciously appropriate: "You wouldn't even consider our qualified old(ish) white male nominee"--okay, I guarantee you're going to have to wrap your heads around a qualified black woman nominee."

Part of what made the Merrick Garland thing so pernicious was that the Republicans had put him forward as their alternative to one of Obama's nominations, Kagan I think. They considered Garland excellent a few years prior.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No one I know believes that Hillary deserved to be president because she is female.

There probably are people like that.
I'm not one.

I didn't even like Hillary the high powered Neolib very much. I'm just not into that political spectrum all that much.

But the fact is she rose to the top, despite being a girl politician. She had to be twice as good as her male counterparts to get anywhere. But she kicked ass. I wanted her, in 2016, because I was confident that she could outperform Sanders on his own platform. Because she was better at her game than Slick Willy.

She was like the Ginger in Astaire and Rodgers. She did everything he did, only backwards and in high heels.
Tom

There were better women than Hillary (nepotism) Clinton, I thought, just as Rita Hayworth, Vera-Ellen, Eleanor Powell, did it even better than Ginger Rogers with and without Fred Astaire.

Hillary Clinton's biggest flaw was Bill Clinton's biggest flaw... and it wasn't nepotism. While being the husband of a President helps, no other First Lady became a US Senator or served as the Secretary of State. These weren't minor tasks. Yes, getting elected Senator in New York as a Democrat these days isn't that hard, but still no other First Lady remotely did anything like it. She certainly put more Federal time in for her Presidential nomination than Bill did... he was Governor of a piss poor and low population state.

Her flaw, like her husband's, was a lack of genuine principles. Her husband had an a lot of charisma which helped cover that up while she had a lot of determination, skill, and intelligence (which doesn't cover it up as much). Her sit down in front of the rabid GOP Congress, where she weathered (with a great deal of class) a torrent of attacks was a masterclass of statesmanship. I thought it was the moment she had won the General Election.

 

[Toni]

I don

I saw the movie. Barbie Land is initially faux woke. It's a fake world in a fake movie. The barbies live in a virtual matriarchy premised on barbie inspiring women's accomplishments in the real world. For ppl who think there is a message, they are deranged. It is clear the Barbies are clueless. Next, Barbie and Ken go to the real world and Ken sees patriarchical features and successes of men. He runs back to Barbie land to start a MRA revolution. It's fucking silly and humorous. It's a fucking movie. Then, Barbie goes back to Barbie land and undoes Ken's revolution, but she comes back "enlightened" to the contradictions of female identity and successes in the real world. So they are a matriarchy again, sort of, but Ken is also heard and men are being nominated to federal circuit judge positions just not Supreme Court yet. It's an obvious parody to real world history but in reverse. There's way more to the movie than political structure absurdity that conservatives scream about. I've just focused on that part in the post. Also, did I mention it's a silly movie that only morons or propagandists would take seriously?

I think you must not have listened to America Ferrera's speech then. I'm linking it here. I'd copy and paste the whole thing but I don't want to violate any copyright rules (even tho this is widely available on many media outlets:

Here's Every Word of America Ferrera's Big ‘Barbie’ Monologue

It took 30 takes to get, and Ferrera and Greta Gerwig spent months revising it.

www.elle.com

Every single word rang true and that's for me, an older middle class woman who never was a fan of Barbie. I can only imagine if you start throwing in poverty, being queer or not white, abused, dyslexic, disabled, etc. Or just underpaid and overworked, with or without kids but kids adds a whole lot of different layers to it all because still, however the kids turn out, it's the mom's fault, 100%.

I don't see that in conflict with what he said. It reminds me of Ginsburg's SCOTUS being all women being a shocking thought when it was all male for close to two hundred years.

And that's the problem. I like Don but he sees this as 'fake.' It's real. It's reality for every single girl and woman you or anyone else knows --at least in the US and I suspect in most of the Western world. Some have internalized it more than others to the extent that they don't even question it anymore. Think about it. Think about the maternal mortality rate in the US. Think about Serena Williams and Torie Bowie whose names most of us know and the many, many women whose names we don't know.

It's just not your reality.

We are discussing a movie in which faux feminists created a matriarchy. If you think that is real or proclaim it to be real, you are feeding into conservative paranoia. Feminism is about equality, not matriarchy. This was a movie and it was a comedy and like all comedies, it has some serious tidbits and moments but it remains a work of fiction. This monologue was one step away from one of those serious kind of moments in a comedy when a monologue happens as a crowd gathers around and then one guy starts clapping and it's the impetus for more clapping by the crowd. These are usually quite good and meaningful monologues but still fiction, even if meaningful.

Sure, I am a man who saw the movie and my wife is a woman who saw the movie and she thinks the whole bruhaha is ridiculous. Identity politics doesn't trump logic here, though. It's the content of the message and whether it is logical, not the color or gender of the person saying it. In this particular case of the fictional speech inside a fictional movie, yeah, sure there are bits of truth and seriousness, but there is also hyperbole meant as expression in a backdrop of comedy. Hyperbole remains hyperbole, even if there are rampant society and cultural biases against women. It is not 100% the woman's fault in our culture, even if the woman does most often get the short-end of the stick. For example, both Trump's parents are blamed for how he is raised. And Trump himself is blamed for how his spoiled children ended up. I got some blame myself as a stay-at-home dad for being flexible with my son during the pandemic during his school hours for letting him be more independent. Both parents get some blame some of the time. You are quoting a movie. A movie.

We live in a society of hyper-privilege where people have time to debate the Barbie movie. The Barbie movie and most of the people debating haven't even seen it! In the real world, there are institutional powers and patriarchal features literally killing females, trans persons, and minorities. Most recently a store owner was killed because she had a pride flag outside the store. The things that conservative institutions want to implement are that bad. Their clarion call right now is that the Barbie movie is feminist propaganda to brainwash young girls into forming a matriarchy and this is classic projection because we know they want the Make America Great Again patriarchy as they push back on freedoms for women.

I think it is important to tell them how absurd they are and not to validate their nightmares with hyperbolic language, including promoting the fictional work as reality.

You may not realize this but there is no low that women (and other minorities) can bow that is low enough to stop people from attempting to define us and keep us locked into tiny little boxes with very rigid sides in order for those people to feel safe in their own positions of privilege.

In truth, starting at least with Greek plays, entertainment has been all about teaching, enforcing and subverting cultural norms and histories. Laughing and crying are both releases (yes, Joni Mitchell reference). We cannot affect real change, real progress towards justice and equality without engaging emotions as well as intellect. It's much easier to change minds than it is to change hearts.