Is there a God of atheism?

[bilby]

But If I did listen and God didn't stop me, like Abraham was stopped, then that voice in my head was not God's

OK. So you're saying that if someone else, not God, but someone who you genuinely believed at the time was God (even if that 'someone' was a part of your own mind suffering a psychosis), told you to kill your son, then that would be an evil act on the part of whoever was telling you to do that killing, right?

 

[Learner]

No. I'd more likely not trust what I'm hearing in my head. Abraham was chosen, no one else. But If I did listen and God didn't stop me, like Abraham was stopped, then that voice in my head was not God's and I would have just killed my son.

That sounds like the old formula for identifying witches. Everyone knows that witches float, so throw a suspect in the river. If she floats, take her out and hang her for being a witch. If she drowns, then good news. She wasn't a witch.

Fortunately what you post is not a Christian practice.

How do we know that Abraham was chosen by God? Because God stopped him from murdering Isaac.

And how do we know that God stopped him? Because Abraham told us so.

And why do we believe Abraham's story? Because Abraham was chosen by God.

It's simple James. There were scriptures written after Abraham as well as many Prophets that came after him. I'm a simple man and the bible wasn't made to be difficult - what should be easy to conclude from what came after Abraham is that 'they all talk about him' therefore he is vouched for.

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

No. I'd more likely not trust what I'm hearing in my head. Abraham was chosen, no one else. But If I did listen and God didn't stop me, like Abraham was stopped, then that voice in my head was not God's and I would have just killed my son.

That sounds like the old formula for identifying witches. Everyone knows that witches float, so throw a suspect in the river. If she floats, take her out and hang her for being a witch. If she drowns, then good news. She wasn't a witch.

Fortunately what you post is not a Christian practice.

How do we know that Abraham was chosen by God? Because God stopped him from murdering Isaac.

And how do we know that God stopped him? Because Abraham told us so.

And why do we believe Abraham's story? Because Abraham was chosen by God.

It's simple James. There were scriptures written after Abraham as well as many Prophets that came after him. I'm a simple man and the bible wasn't made to be difficult - what should be easy to conclude from what came after Abraham is that 'they all talk about him' therefore he is vouched for.

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

Jesus, if he actually existed, contradicted prophets, laws, and Elohim/Yahweh: against an eye for an eye, against stoning, for love your neighbor as yourself which you would think is also against stealing land from Canaanites and constant holy wars of the old testament.

 

[James Brown]

Fortunately what you post is not a Christian practice.

Yes, not anymore, thanks to the Enlightenment.

There were scriptures written after Abraham as well as many Prophets that came after him. I'm a simple man and the bible wasn't made to be difficult - what should be easy to conclude from what came after Abraham is that 'they all talk about him' therefore he is vouched for.

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

Yes, many biblical authors mentioned Abraham, but almost no one "validated" his attempt to murder his son based on voices he heard in his head. Jesus certainly didn't.

Paul praised Abraham for believing Yahweh, but for what he doesn't specify. The author of James said he was justified in trying to kill Isaac. The author of Hebrews called it an act of faith, and even tossed in an extra bit about how Abraham must have somehow known that Yahweh would resurrect Isaac from the dead, but of course there's nothing in the Genesis passage to indicate that was true. I suspect it was a rationalization on the more-enlightened author of Hebrews who must have been a little bit horrified at the swift obedience of Abraham to commit child sacrifice.

You, Learner, on the other hand, don't have biographers writing hundreds or thousands of years from now to praise you for your obedience so you've decided that you must be suffering from a mental delusion if you hear a voice in your head that says, Prove how much you love me by killing your son.

Very well, then. I'll amend the circular logic of yours that I posted earlier in light of your counter-argument:

How do we know that Abraham was chosen by God? Because God stopped him from murdering Isaac.

And how do we know that God stopped him? Because Abraham the biographers of Abraham told us so.

And why do we believe Abraham's story? Because people have read that Abraham was chosen by God.


I sincerely hope for the sake of your son that you don't ever believe that you've been chosen by God the way Abraham supposedly was.

 

[bilby]

No. I'd more likely not trust what I'm hearing in my head. Abraham was chosen, no one else. But If I did listen and God didn't stop me, like Abraham was stopped, then that voice in my head was not God's and I would have just killed my son.

That sounds like the old formula for identifying witches. Everyone knows that witches float, so throw a suspect in the river. If she floats, take her out and hang her for being a witch. If she drowns, then good news. She wasn't a witch.

Fortunately what you post is not a Christian practice.

Seriously??

It's about as Christian as it gets.

Maybe you should take a look at what else King James did, other than commission the now definitive English Language version of the Bible that bears his name.

If it's not a Christian practice, then nothing ever is or was.

 

[TomC]

If it's not a Christian practice, then nothing ever is or was.

But "was" and "is" are two different things.
Around the globe and through the centuries, people have done all kinds of things now considered horrific. Nothing resembling that can be found in Jesus's teachings.
So while Christian practices can be bronze age nastiness, nobody does that any more and it's not exactly Christian.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

It's simple James. There were scriptures written after Abraham as well as many Prophets that came after him. I'm a simple man and the bible wasn't made to be difficult - what should be easy to conclude from what came after Abraham is that 'they all talk about him' therefore he is vouched for.

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

Do you know how many books there are out there about ghosts? About elves? They ALL talk about ghosts, therefore ghosts are vouched for, right?

Actually, let's make this easier. There are TONS of books about Zeus. There are books about Zeus written in the early days of the greek pantheon, and then there's even more books written about Zeus during the decline of the pantheon. Then there's even more written after that. There are probably more books and stories written about greek gods than there are about the christian god.

 

[TomC]

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

What do you mean by "validates" in that sentence?
Tom

 

[Learner]

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

What do you mean by "validates" in that sentence?
Tom

The obvious things Tom, like when Jesus says things like in the verses below:

John:8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Learner]

It's simple James. There were scriptures written after Abraham as well as many Prophets that came after him. I'm a simple man and the bible wasn't made to be difficult - what should be easy to conclude from what came after Abraham is that 'they all talk about him' therefore he is vouched for.

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

Do you know how many books there are out there about ghosts? About elves? They ALL talk about ghosts, therefore ghosts are vouched for, right?

Not quite the same thing. Those I previously mentioned (who vouch) refer to one particular person.

Curiously - what would you say about atheists who believe they've seen ghosts and we're pretty sure these were not imagined? I know of 3 atheists at least and have been in discussions with them, one is a member on this forum (perhaps a topic for another discussion).

Actually, let's make this easier. There are TONS of books about Zeus. There are books about Zeus written in the early days of the greek pantheon, and then there's even more books written about Zeus during the decline of the pantheon.

The bible acknowledges Zeus and many other pagan gods. But the logic is flawed when talking "tons of books" as somehow being an argument in your favour.

Do you know the Bible is the best selling book of all time?

Then there's even more written after that. There are probably more books and stories written about greek gods than there are about the christian god.

How many people believe and follow Zeus?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

How many people believe and follow Zeus?

Some old timey emperors banned greek mythology religion and instead forced christianity mythology cult on citizens. There were centuries of torture and murder by Christians.

Christian Atrocities: Three Centuries Of Pagan Persecution

Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the gentiles. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

churchandstate.org.uk

 

[James Brown]

How many people believe and follow Zeus?

Not very many. Why do you ask?

I hope we're not committing the logical fallacy  Argumentum_ad_populum, claiming that something is true or good because the majority think it so.

Let's also not forget for long periods of time in history, more people believed and followed Zeus than Christ. That in itself is not a reason to shed Christianity for paganism, is it?

 

[James Brown]

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

What do you mean by "validates" in that sentence?
Tom

The obvious things Tom, like when Jesus says things like in the verses below:

John:8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Are you sticking with your claim that mentioning a person's name is equivalent to "validating" that person's moral behavior--in this case, the behavior of attempting to murder one's own son because a voice in your head told you to?

 

[TomC]

Just as Jesus validates Abraham!

What do you mean by "validates" in that sentence?
Tom

The obvious things Tom, like when Jesus says things like in the verses below:

John:8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

To me, that's not even clear, much less obvious.
Of course gJohn attributed a belief in Abraham to Jesus. Jesus was a first century Jew. And frankly, the basic story about Abraham was quite plausible. A nomadic herdsman started out to sacrifice his son to God. On the hike up the mountain, he started having serious second thoughts. When they arrived at the spot, they found a suitable animal for a sacrifice. Abraham interpreted that as a message from God. After that, he and his progeny abandoned the old practice of child sacrifice. Totally plausible.

However, I also find it important to point out that gJohn was written decades after Jesus, by people who couldn't have even met Him. The possibility that they could accurately recount long mystical teachings, word for word, is utterly implausible. I'm extremely certain that it was produced by folks attributing their beliefs to Jesus.
Tom

 

[Learner]

How many people believe and follow Zeus?

Not very many. Why do you ask?

I hope we're not committing the logical fallacy  Argumentum_ad_populum, claiming that something is true or good because the majority think it so.Let's also not forget for long periods of time in history, more people believed and followed Zeus than Christ. That in itself is not a reason to shed Christianity for paganism, is it?

(Responding in no particular order to posters).

I ask because people through the ages have not been convinced enough by what is written about Zeus to become followers, compared with the billions of followers today who are convinced of the God the bible.

Arguing from the popularity angle was not what I was doing. Ironically if you didn't notice. I was sort of alluding to the 'same' thing about the popularity argument when I was responding to the line that was posted saying: "there was more books about Zeus".

The bible is popular indeed. But even then... What difference would the scale of popularity be anyway, even if the bible were true?
Imo no difference, it would still be popular either way!

 

[Rhea]

Do you know the Bible is the best selling book of all time?

Out of curiosity, how do they know how many books to subtract from the total because they were just bought by believers who were scattering books without invitation into hotels, whorehouses, doctor’s offices and bus stations?

I’m always a little amused and a litttle bemused by the idea that “bestselling of all time” is considered to be a sign of divinity.

Care to guess what is the “best selling of all time” movie topic?
Do you know which websites are the “best selling of all time”?

Well. Alrighty then.

 

[bilby]

Curiously - what would you say about atheists who believe they've seen ghosts and we're pretty sure these were not imagined?

I would say that they lack a grasp of the sheer power of our imaginations to mislead us; And perhaps point out that even if they saw something, it would fly in the face of what we know for certain about the way reality works, to assume that that thing was caused by a dead human.

 

[pood]

I was reading that the second-best selling book of all time is the Koran, and the third is The Sayings of Chairman Mao.

If either of those two books surpass the bible, what then? Shall we conclude that Allah is God? Or Chairman Mao?

 

[ideologyhunter]

If you want to see a book that's meant for public use but stays in mint condition, pick up any Gideon Bible next time you're in a motel. Printed on fine white paper (called Bible paper or scritta paper in the business) -- I've never encountered one that didn't sit completely flat and compact in the bedside table drawer, with tight uncreased binding and pages all lined up in perfect, precise alignment. A holy, virginal cuboid. No crinkles, no folds, no water marks. Almost as if none of the guests sought to consult God's message to mankind.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Do you know the Bible is the best selling book of all time?

The Bible is actually a collection of books and while I know you know that, this makes it interesting because the bible books contain Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, numbers, and Deuteronomy. Those first five books of the bible are the Torah. So, for every bible that is printed or sold, there is also a Torah. Conversely, for every Torah printed or sold, there isn't necessarily a bible. So the Torah is even more popular than the bible because the bible includes the Torah.

As you know, the Torah includes various genocides, holy wars, holocausts committed by an alleged Yahweh and commandments to murder people, like the gays, for example.

So, what is it in particular about these murderous books that makes them so popular? Even more popular than the New Testament?