Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

No, I am trying to do the opposite. By taking the point of Israel supporters and giving it to them by granting that all Gaza teen boys are fighters and not children (I DO NOT AGREE) there are still many thousands of "real' children who have been killed. Same could apply to taking away men over ~55-60 years old and so on from the statistics of Hamas terrorists who have been killed.

Again, this is still giving ground to Israel in their assertion that all adult males killed and crippled were Hamas. Which is absurd.

No. You don't figure all military age males are combatants.

Rather, you figure casualties amongst those who are obviously not combatants is representative of the civilian death rate. Adjust for demographics and you can figure out the expected civilian death rate of military age males. Those casualties of military age males above this number are figured to be combatants or quasi-combatants. (And note that this will undercount quasi-combatants because some of those were civilians directed into danger.)

 

[TomC]

Exact attack plans, obviously secret. The basic intention, decided not secret.

Lots of this.
Even I knew about the tunnels.
The long build up of a military installation aimed at Israel couldn't have been done in secret. Gazans knew, Israel knew, the UN knew, Iran and other international supporters knew.
The fact that it was interspersed amongst civilian infrastructure was known. The stage was set for what is happening in Gaza right now for a while.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again, this is still giving ground to Israel in their assertion that all adult males killed and crippled were Hamas. Which is absurd.

That's a strawman assertion. Nobody is claiming that.

What is claimed is that to call minor dead "children" is a misnomer as many teenage minors are combatants. That will affect the statistics. We know Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others use minor combatants.

And nobody is saying that no civilians and no children die during this war. Wars are hell. Civilians die in them. Especially when the war is against a terrorist organization that hides among and below the civilian population.

Speaking of the latter, IDF has uncovered a tunnel system underneath the UNRWA headquarters.

Hamas had command tunnel under U.N. Gaza headquarters, Israeli military says

You don't fail to note a tunnel under your own headquarters. Furthermore, this isn't merely willful blindness as they don't put tunnels without reason--the presence of a tunnel serving a structure means important Hamas people are there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing. The dead are dead regardless of whatever distinction without a difference you want to make.

The takeaway from this is that you don't see a distinction between violent terrorists or attacking soldiers and their victims. They are all dead?
Tom

I don’t see that it matters what percentage of the dead children are “combatants”. Also I doubt the IDF knows which children in any bomb site are combatants.

I do see the distinction between cogent analysis and your posts.

It does matter because the percentage of women and "children" killed is being used as evidence of supposed Israeli misdeeds. We do not have current demographics but in past conflicts the number of dead "children" that were 16+ is a substantial percent of the total. (And also, in past situations a substantial number of the civilian casualties were actually Hamas misfires. They always blame Israel when a rocket falls short.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think what is being missed now is that much of the demolition of buildings now is not from the air, but by demolition teams.

This is going to be much less deadly, but still it is making Gaza unlivable.

It's unfortunate that Islamic terrorists set into motion a process that is making Gaza unlivable.

But what do you do when nobody wants to call Islamic terrorists to account before they cause so much death and destruction?

Hamas has been dominating Gaza for 18 years and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Oops for Gazans, Gaza isn't going to be livable for awhile. Because Islamic terrorists need to regroup and rearm.

October 7th worked better than they planned.

Tom

You have to do something! If that means looking for your keys under the streetlight you do so because inaction is intolerable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you are in favor of exacting retribution against 2 million people, most of whom are children under the age of 18, for the actions of a few thousand militants, because 18 years ago 150,000 people voted for the political party to which the militants belong and never mind the civil war that clearly showed how strongly some Gazans were against Hamas taking over the government.

And have you stopped beating your wife?

You're assuming it's about retribution.

 

[TomC]

You're assuming it's about retribution.

Honestly, I can't help but assume there's a heavy element of vengeance. Israelis have been under the constant threat of Islamic violence since 1948. How many Israelis are there who haven't lost a loved one or ancestor to it?
Nevertheless, I don't think that is the main motivation for pulverizing the military installation in Gaza. It's about preventing future violence against Israel.

Which is also not the same as achieving peace with their Islamic neighbors. I also think that Zionists have given up on that. For reasons I understand, they don't think it's possible. Regardless of the rhetoric for media consumption, I think folks like Likud and Netanyahu don't believe peace is possible, and aren't particularly willing to make concessions in pursuit of that.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It looks to me like you're saying you don't give a flying fuck that most Gazans are children or far too young to have voted Hamas into power or lost the civil war against them, you think they deserve the slaughter and destruction the IDF is doling out.

More wife-beating.

There is no issue of "deserve". Israel is doing what it needs to to prevent a repeat of 10/7. Gaza won't surrender, they keep getting the crap pounded out of them.

Also, could you explain what you meant when you said "nobody wants to call Islamic terrorists to account before they cause so much death and destruction"? Are you suggesting support for Hamas in Gaza increased from 44% to something somewhat higher over the last 18 years? Do you have evidence of Hamas' popularity prior to the October 2023 attack?

1) Your conclusion doesn't follow your argument.

2) https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-777918

The poll found that there were "significant differences" between the attitudes of West Bank residents and Gaza residents. In the West Bank, 82% believed that Hamas' decision to launch the attack was correct and only 12% said it was incorrect, while in Gaza, 57% said it was correct and 37% said it was incorrect.

Doesn't matter if they support Hamas or not, they support 10/7.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some good news in this dreary war, two hostages rescued:

Israel rescues two hostages in Rafah amid deadly strikes

The two men, Israeli-Argentines, were rescued as Israel carried out air strikes on the southern Gazan city.

www.bbc.com

I hope now everyone who has been crying about the IDF attacking Rafah understands why they're doing it and why it's necessary. We must never let Hamas get away with using the Palestinian people as human shields. It's an unacceptable behaviour.

The IDF isn’t. Between rescuing and killing noncombatants, there are fewer if them to use as human shields. Theough in didrase and malnutrition, even fewer.

The IDF will attack anywhere where hostages are suspected to be held. It would be wrong of Israel not to do everything in their power to free the civilians. It's the primary job of the Israeli government to protect it's own citizens. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people, they'd move the hostages away from civilians, and inform the IDF where they are. If they do anything else it's on Hamas that Palestinian civilians are dying now. What makes this so barbaric, is that Rafah is filled to the brim with refugees from the rest of Gaza. They're already weakened and starving. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people they'd of course do what they can not to give Israel a reason to attack Rafah.

Or even better, just return them. They had no right to take them to begin with. But Hamas has never had a working moral compass.

Your applaue and approval of the displacement of millions of people, the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians from bombs and bullets, and the resulting malnutrition and disease( which hits the very young and the very old the worst) makes your comments about "giving a shit about the Palestrinian people" epically ironic.

Nobody's applauding what's happening. We are saying that Israel has the right to defend itself and that an attacker who suffers badly from attacking doesn't get protection.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The IDF will attack anywhere where hostages are suspected to be held. It would be wrong of Israel not to do everything in their power to free the civilians. It's the primary job of the Israeli government to protect it's own citizens. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people, they'd move the hostages away from civilians, and inform the IDF where they are. If they do anything else it's on Hamas that Palestinian civilians are dying now. What makes this so barbaric, is that Rafah is filled to the brim with refugees from the rest of Gaza. They're already weakened and starving. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people they'd of course do what they can not to give Israel a reason to attack Rafah.

Or even better, just return them. They had no right to take them to begin with. But Hamas has never had a working moral compass.

Your applaue and approval of the displacement of millions of people, the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians from bombs and bullets, and the resulting malnutrition and disease( which hits the very young and the very old the worst) makes your comments about "giving a shit about the Palestrinian people" epically ironic.

Nobody's applauding what's happening. We are saying that Israel has the right to defend itself and that an attacker who suffers badly from attacking doesn't get protection.

But that isn't what has been said. There have been multiple posters who have attributed some level of blame for the October 7th atrocity on the civilians in Gaza. This has been done after people have asked about the collateral damage of IDF attacks.

The context provided is that while they aren't in (vocal) support of directly targeting the civilians, they don't feel the civilians deserve any protection.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

... If Israel were to simply carpet bomb or nuke Gaza, ensuring that 100% of Hamas and Gazans were killed, would that be a justified response and we could simply blame Hamas for the carnage?

I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t respond but clearly there’s a line and we are negotiating that line.

That would be unreasonable. Israel can do better than carpet bombing, therefore they should. However, I do not see anybody proposing a viable path to Israeli safety that would cause less collateral damage.

Okay, here's a viable path to Israeli safety that would cause less collateral damage.

Saying "viable" doesn't make it so.

Phase 1: Negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas. Immediate withdrawal of IDF from Gaza in exchange for immediate release of all hostages. Israel would probably have to sweeten the deal by also releasing a few hundred Palestinian criminals from Israeli jails. Fine, as long as the released criminals are released into Gaza rather than Israel.

That's basically what Israel offered before. Hamas already broke the deal.

And it's not "fine" that they are released into Gaza--because Hamas doesn't want criminals. Hamas wants terrorists.

Phase 2: After a few months' cooling off period, sudden incursion of IDF into Gaza, seizing 1200 hectares some place along its border with Israel.

Think that's going to help with peace?!

Phase 3: Knesset passes a law permanently annexing those 1200 hectares into Israel, and authorizing the seizure and permanent annexation of a further hectare for every Israeli noncombatant murdered by Palestinian terrorists going forward.

I have suggested something of the sort going forward. It should not be retroactive.

Sure it's a violation of international law; but international law hasn't delivered either Israeli safety or minimization of collateral damage, so maybe some revisions of international law should be considered.

I do agree that international law does not address conflicts like this.

 

[TomC]

Nobody's applauding what's happening. We are saying that Israel has the right to defend itself and that an attacker who suffers badly from attacking doesn't get protection.

Nobody on this thread.
But you can bet your sweet bippy that there are Israelis who have been victims of Islamic attacks through the decades who are. If you lost your mom to a suicide bomber from Gaza, twenty years ago, it would be quite understandable to cheer for the pulverizing of Gaza today.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Posting a follow up to this^.

It appears the linked article, The Origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness with other Mediterranean populations, was not retracted due to any flaws in the study or conclusions. The objections to the article were political in nature.

The study's principal author, Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, is an accomplished immunologist with several published scientific articles. He may have been wrong about a thing or two, but from what I can find about the controversy, his data and the conclusions he drew from them have not been shown to be incorrect.

How do you conclude the objections were political? I see nothing at your link that says why it was retracted, only that it was.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It starts with a Two State solution based on the 1967 borders.

Starts with? You realize that's almost exactly what Israel did with Gaza and it only made things worse? Fool me twice?

My personal opinion is that Israel and Palestine are heading towards a political shotgun marriage in a messy One State solution.

You mean a genocide?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Palestinian self-rule does not mean Hamas is free to operate in Gaza. That is a ridiculous excluded middle fallacy.

Palestinian self rule means Palestinian police go after terrorists and other criminals in the State of Palestine. It means The Palestinian government can seek assistance from foreign governments if it so desires.

And seven days are nowhere near a week!

(The Palestinians have chosen and continue to choose the path of violence--10/7 polls higher than Hamas. Thus Palestinian self rule means the war continues.)

Its illogic like the above that supports bigotry and ethnic cleansing.

If the logic is wrong show how. When you just post stuff like this is basically an admission you have no actual flaw to point to.

 

[laughing dog]

Nothing. The dead are dead regardless of whatever distinction without a difference you want to make.

The takeaway from this is that you don't see a distinction between violent terrorists or attacking soldiers and their victims. They are all dead?
Tom

I don’t see that it matters what percentage of the dead children are “combatants”. Also I doubt the IDF knows which children in any bomb site are combatants.

I do see the distinction between cogent analysis and your posts.

It does matter because the percentage of women and "children" killed is being used as evidence of supposed Israeli misdeeds. We do not have current demographics but in past conflicts the number of dead "children" that were 16+ is a substantial percent of the total. (And also, in past situations a substantial number of the civilian casualties were actually Hamas misfires. They always blame Israel when a rocket falls short.)

As usual, you missed the point. Killing noncombatants is wrong. Whether the percentage is 10% or 90% noncombatant, it is fucking wrong. Quibbling over the number of "justified" dead reminds of the Holocaust denier MO of quibbling about the exact number of Holocaust victims. It is simply a smokescreen to divert from the inhuman tragedy.

 

[laughing dog]

Palestinian self-rule does not mean Hamas is free to operate in Gaza. That is a ridiculous excluded middle fallacy.

Palestinian self rule means Palestinian police go after terrorists and other criminals in the State of Palestine. It means The Palestinian government can seek assistance from foreign governments if it so desires.

And seven days are nowhere near a week!

(The Palestinians have chosen and continue to choose the path of violence--10/7 polls higher than Hamas. Thus Palestinian self rule means the war continues.)

Its illogic like the above that supports bigotry and ethnic cleansing.

If the logic is wrong show how. When you just post stuff like this is basically an admission you have no actual flaw to point to.

I have pointed it out earlier in the thread. I am sorry I assumed you were paying attention. Perhaps you might recall this the next time you whine about someone who is unfamiliar with an earlier post of yours.

Ex post approval of an act does not necessarily mean ex ante approval or that one would continue the act. it is quite possible many of those who approve now do so because of Israel's inhumane destruction.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're assuming it's about retribution.

Honestly, I can't help but assume there's a heavy element of vengeance. Israelis have been under the constant threat of Islamic violence since 1948. How many Israelis are there who haven't lost a loved one or ancestor to it?
Nevertheless, I don't think that is the main motivation for pulverizing the military installation in Gaza. It's about preventing future violence against Israel.

Which is also not the same as achieving peace with their Islamic neighbors. I also think that Zionists have given up on that. For reasons I understand, they don't think it's possible. Regardless of the rhetoric for media consumption, I think folks like Likud and Netanyahu don't believe peace is possible, and aren't particularly willing to make concessions in pursuit of that.
Tom

I think Israel has enough valid targets to shoot at to be interested in diverting them to vengeance. Although there is a deterrent value to taking out leaders beyond just the tactical advantage it confers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The IDF will attack anywhere where hostages are suspected to be held. It would be wrong of Israel not to do everything in their power to free the civilians. It's the primary job of the Israeli government to protect it's own citizens. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people, they'd move the hostages away from civilians, and inform the IDF where they are. If they do anything else it's on Hamas that Palestinian civilians are dying now. What makes this so barbaric, is that Rafah is filled to the brim with refugees from the rest of Gaza. They're already weakened and starving. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people they'd of course do what they can not to give Israel a reason to attack Rafah.

Or even better, just return them. They had no right to take them to begin with. But Hamas has never had a working moral compass.

Your applaue and approval of the displacement of millions of people, the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians from bombs and bullets, and the resulting malnutrition and disease( which hits the very young and the very old the worst) makes your comments about "giving a shit about the Palestrinian people" epically ironic.

Nobody's applauding what's happening. We are saying that Israel has the right to defend itself and that an attacker who suffers badly from attacking doesn't get protection.

But that isn't what has been said. There have been multiple posters who have attributed some level of blame for the October 7th atrocity on the civilians in Gaza. This has been done after people have asked about the collateral damage of IDF attacks.

The context provided is that while they aren't in (vocal) support of directly targeting the civilians, they don't feel the civilians deserve any protection.

The civilians favor the attacks. They share some of the culpability.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Palestinian self-rule does not mean Hamas is free to operate in Gaza. That is a ridiculous excluded middle fallacy.

Palestinian self rule means Palestinian police go after terrorists and other criminals in the State of Palestine. It means The Palestinian government can seek assistance from foreign governments if it so desires.

And seven days are nowhere near a week!

(The Palestinians have chosen and continue to choose the path of violence--10/7 polls higher than Hamas. Thus Palestinian self rule means the war continues.)

Its illogic like the above that supports bigotry and ethnic cleansing.

If the logic is wrong show how. When you just post stuff like this is basically an admission you have no actual flaw to point to.

I'd say the biggest flaw is that of the idea that war is ever going to stop. Especially when people keep pointing to past losses to justify future ones. Here is the biggest problem. If Palestinians can't rule themselves, and Israel won't rule them... what is the alternative?