Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

The UN had been reporting the number of dead that Hamas claimed. They switched to reporting what the Ministry of Health listed, instead. As you say, this is not half. It is, however, approximately how many combatants Israel claims to have killed. If we figure the Hamas data is total dead an the ministry data is mostly civilian dead everything's consistent. By Occam's razor this would be the most sensible interpretation.

I don't think you are far off here except for your assumption of who is a combatant who is not. For example, Netanyahu most recently has said that there were 14,000 Hamas and other fighters killed plus "probably around" (a very very vague estimate by him) 16,000 civilians killed. This is him on the defense, after earlier he said that 1.1 to 1.5 was the ratio and even earlier after Israel had said the ratio was 1 to 2. So we can take that 16,000 figure to be very loose and an underestimate. If it were 2 to 1, the total would be 42,000 which is above 35,000. If it were 1.5 to 1, it'd be 35,000. If it were his least estimate so far of 16K, the total would be 30,000, which is HIGHER than the 25K of identified persons in the counts. Israel's ranges from least to highest are inclusive of the 35,000 figure but ARE NOT inclusive of the 25K figure. This again is because it is only identified persons, not all the bodies observed.

The point is the numbers line up if you assume ministry of health counts bodies and reports civilian dead, Hamas reports total dead and Israel has a reasonably accurate toll of dead combatants. Ignore what Netanyahu is saying about ratios, he's a politician, expect everything to be a bit slanted. And note that it's a shifting target, you need numbers from the same time.

How do you know it's "reasonably accurate"? How do you know it isn't just propaganda?

I'm going on Israel's claims of combatant kills vs the MoH claims of dead that Israel had been going along with. I figured that if both sides said the same number it probably was reasonably accurate, but it turns out there's a lot of bogus entries in the MoH data and Netanyahu's numbers are better than I thought they were.

In 3 posts earlier, you basically said Israel accepts blame for acts it did not do- that Israel lies. So why accept their estimates on anything?

 

[TV and credit cards]

The International Criminal Court is seeking arrest warrants against three leaders of Palestinian militant group Hamas and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity linked to the October 7 terror attack on Israel and the ongoing conflict in the Gaza Strip.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The Allies strategy in WW2 was to destroy the ability of Germany and Japan to wage war. IIRC it worked rather well.

WW2 involved the whole world and so was more like a closed system than Gaza because the radicalization is spreading to all surrounding neighbors of Israel, probably including the West Bank. The strategy in WW2 Germany was to work together, i.e. the good guys not go it alone, to RESCUE people in the camps as much as possible, to continue to occupy the lands conquered as they were being conquered. The strategy in WW2 was to win back lands on the ground and fight at sea. But in Japa, following that tactic was to bomb the hell out of civilian populations with a great new technology no one else had to get surrender. Then, the post war strategy was for international forces to have trials of the leadership and then to occupy them militarily for decades. There isn't international support to do a world-wide war here, including occupations of territories undergoing radicalization.

 

[lpetrich]

ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza | CNN
From an interview of prosecutor Karim Khan by Christiane Amanpour of CNN

• Israel: Prime Minister Binyamin (Benjamin) Netanyahu, Defense Minister Yoav (Joab) Gallant
• Hamas: Leader in Gaza Yahya Sinwar, Head of Al Qassem Brigades Mohammed Diab Ibrahim al-Masri (Mohammed Deif), Political Leader Ismail Haniyeh

They thus join the likes of Vladimir Putin and former Libyan leader Muammar Khadafy.

Khan said the charges against Sinwar, Haniyeh and al-Masri include “extermination, murder, taking of hostages, rape and sexual assault in detention.”

“The world was shocked on the 7th of October when people were ripped from their bedrooms, from their homes, from the different kibbutzim in Israel,” Khan told Amanpour, adding that “people have suffered enormously.”

The attacks and continued hostage holding mean that “so many innocent Israelis … that are held hostage by Hamas and families that are waiting for their return.”

KK's team has a “variety of evidence” against the Hamas leaders, saying that Israel has “every right and indeed an obligation to get hostages back, but you must do so by complying with the law.”

 

[lpetrich]

Hamas “strongly condemns the attempts of the ICC Prosecutor to equate victims with aggressors by issuing arrest warrants against a number of Palestinian resistance leaders without legal basis.” and “Hamas calls on the ICC Prosecutor to issue arrest warrants against all war criminals among the occupation leaders, officers, and soldiers who participated in crimes against the Palestinian people, and demands the cancellation of all arrest warrants issued against Palestinian resistance leaders.”

KK told CA that the charges include “causing extermination, causing starvation as a method of war, including the denial of humanitarian relief supplies, deliberately targeting civilians in conflict,” saying that “The fact that Hamas fighters need water doesn’t justify denying water from all the civilian population of Gaza.”

Ben Netanyahu: it is a “a political outrage.” and “They will not deter us and we will continue in the war until the hostages are released and Hamas is destroyed.”

Benny Gantz: Israel is fighting “with one of the strictest moral codes in history, while complying with international law and boasting a robust independent judiciary.” and “Drawing parallels between the leaders of a democratic country determined to defend itself from despicable terror to leaders of a blood-thirsty terror organisation is a deep distortion of justice and blatant moral bankruptcy,” and that the prosecutors' decision “is in itself a crime of historic proportion to be remembered for generation.”

Yair Lapid: the application for arrest warrants was “a complete moral failure.” and “We cannot accept the outrageous comparison between Netanyahu and Sinwar … We will not remain silent.”

President Isaac Herzog: “beyond outrageous.”

Most countries are members of the ICC, but exceptions include the US, Israel, and Russia.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you refuse to kill children in Gaza you let Hamas massacre the Jews.

Holy shit.
Wow.

Holy fucking shit.

Sorry, but reality sometimes offers only extremely unpalatable choices. Doesn't mean you get to not choose.

Children will die in any war. What you need to do is update your statement to say "If you refuse to kill countless children in Gaza you let Hamas massacre the Jews." That'd be a more honest reflection of your position.

It is odd, you complain about people victim blaming Israel, yet you seem to have no trouble doing that with the Gazans. If you tell a Palestinian they are worth 1/10 of an Israeli, what should you expect them to feel about your opinion?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hamas “strongly condemns the attempts of the ICC Prosecutor to equate victims with aggressors by issuing arrest warrants against a number of Palestinian resistance leaders without legal basis.” and “Hamas calls on the ICC Prosecutor to issue arrest warrants against all war criminals among the occupation leaders, officers, and soldiers who participated in crimes against the Palestinian people, and demands the cancellation of all arrest warrants issued against Palestinian resistance leaders.”

Listening to Hamas complain about atrocities is one of the hardest things I've ever had to endure, and I've seen the movie 2012. They are worse than heel valets in professional wrestling... and they are just trying to get a reaction. I don't even know what Hamas is trying to do at this point. Did they have a plan other than "not get iced by Mossad" post October 7th?

 

[lpetrich]

Israel reacts in fury as ICC prosecutor seeks Netanyahu arrest warrant | Reuters

President Isaac Herzog: "Any attempt to draw parallels between these atrocious terrorists and a democratically elected government of Israel - working to fulfil its duty to defend and protect its citizens entirely in adherence to the principles of international law – is outrageous and cannot be accepted by anyone."

Israeli ministers condemn ICC arrest warrant call as ‘scandalous’ – as it happened | Iran | The Guardian - also Hamas officials

Senior figures in the Israeli government have reacted angrily to the announcement which Israel’s foreign minister Israel Katz said was “scandalous” and tantamount to attacking the victims of 7 October. Finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, said the decision would be “the last nail in the dismantling of this political and antisemitic court,” adding that “arrest warrants [for Netanyahu and Gallant] are the arrest warrants for all of us”. President Isaac Herzog said it was “one-sided” and in “bad faith”, and that Israel “expects all leaders in the free world to condemn outright this step and firmly reject it.”

The move has also been condemned by senior Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhuri, who said the decision “equates the victim with the executioner” and encourages Israel to continue its “war of extermination” in Gaza. Wasel Abu Youssef of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) said there was confusion over who was the victim, and that “The Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves. The ICC is required to issue arrest warrants against Israeli officials who are pursuing crimes of genocide in the Gaza Strip.”

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Beautiful.

We must disenthrall ourselves

If we do not, Israel will stay bonded to violence, remaining a nation and a people that live by the sword, forever killing and being killed

blogs.timesofisrael.com

 

[steve_bank]

Netanyahu et al are hiding behind antisemitism to cover their asses and justify what amounts to genocide.

We can see now from reports it is certainly not all Israelis. There have been anti war Jewish protests over here.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Over at X/Twitter I've found several threads with lots and lots of video of IDF soldiers being destructive and disrespectful -- video that those soldiers themselves have posted online.

Well, duh, what war didn't have this sort of thing? It's just more obvious with Shitter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas “strongly condemns the attempts of the ICC Prosecutor to equate victims with aggressors by issuing arrest warrants against a number of Palestinian resistance leaders without legal basis.” and “Hamas calls on the ICC Prosecutor to issue arrest warrants against all war criminals among the occupation leaders, officers, and soldiers who participated in crimes against the Palestinian people, and demands the cancellation of all arrest warrants issued against Palestinian resistance leaders.”

Listening to Hamas complain about atrocities is one of the hardest things I've ever had to endure, and I've seen the movie 2012. They are worse than heel valets in professional wrestling... and they are just trying to get a reaction. I don't even know what Hamas is trying to do at this point. Did they have a plan other than "not get iced by Mossad" post October 7th?

We are seeing their plan in action: parade the suffering people to get the world to stop Israel from bashing them. Parading suffering people before the world press is a pretty standard weapon of scumbags involved in any sort of conflict with a first world power.

It's just they were so successful it didn't work this time.

 

[steve_bank]

Actually up till now over here we have only seen the Israeli side painting themselves as innocent victims. We see it in the pathetic Israeli TV propaganda. Old allegedly staving Israeli women, requests for donations for bomb shelters.

Now we see the Palestrina side. They have been dealing with an repressive Israel for a long time. Militray occupation of the West Bank, seizure of land, bombings on yakked terrorists, assassinations, declaring Jerusalem the sole nomad of Israel, ethnic cleansing.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Seems like a great pretext for genocide.

Over the last 7 months, this has been the most overused word. It even overtook "racism".

All men are evil enemies. All women are support personnel for evil enemies. All children are future evil enemies or else future support personnel for evil enemies.

I did not say anything like that. I just said that we should not assume that these four were civilians. Just because some tweet says it, doesn't make it so.

South Africa urged the U.N.'s top court on Thursday to order a halt to Israel's offensive on Rafah, saying attacks on the southern Gaza city "must be stopped" to ensure the survival of the Palestinian people.

The people will survive. But to root out the remaining Hamas battalions and the leadership, taking Rafah is imperative.
Why should Rafah be off limits?

South Africa's ambassador to the Netherlands, Vusimuzi Madonsela, asked judges to order Israel to "immediately, totally and unconditionally, withdraw the Israeli army from the entirety of the Gaza Strip."

And leave Hamas in power. So they can attack Israel again as they have vowed.
This is idiotic.

South Africa also asked the court to order Israel to allow unimpeded access to Gaza for U.N. officials, organisations providing humanitarian aid, journalists and investigators.

UN is strongly biased against Israel. Any UN investigator would not be partial. Just look at that Albanese woman.

Israel's military campaign has killed tens of thousands of children and women, destroyed civilian infrastructure and starved the population, South Africa's legal team told the court.

People get killed in wars. This war was started by Hamas. Nobody else.
Of course, aid needs to be let in. But what about Hamas shooting missiles at the Kerem Shalom crossing?

"From the onset Israel's intent was always to destroy Palestinian life and to wipe them off the face of the earth. Rafah is the final stand," Tembeka Ngcukaitobi, one of the legal team, said.

Rafah is the final stand for the remaining Hamas battalions. I think South Africa is working on behalf of Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

The International Criminal Court’s prosecutor faced demands Tuesday for speedy action against Israeli leaders and a blistering Russian attack over the ICC’s arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin stemming from Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.

There should also be arrest warrants for Ismail Hanniyeh, Khaled Mashal, Ghazi Hamas, Yaya Sinwar etc.

Karim Khan responded by telling the U.N. Security Council that he will not be swayed or intimidated as his team investigates possible war crimes or crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Palestinian territories as well as in Ukraine.

Why no investigation into war crimes by Hamas?

The ICC deals with disputes and crimes by states. Gaza is not a state.

Any country that is a member of ICC can start a case. Until the case is won there doesn’t need to be any substance to an accusation.

I see this case against Netanyahu as pure politics. Since Netanyahu can prove that the IDF has done there best to protect Palestinian civilians, while trying to find the hostages, this case is dead in the water

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Seems like a great pretext for genocide.

Over the last 7 months, this has been the most overused word. It even overtook "racism".

All men are evil enemies. All women are support personnel for evil enemies. All children are future evil enemies or else future support personnel for evil enemies.

I did not say anything like that. I just said that we should not assume that these four were civilians. Just because some tweet says it, doesn't make it so.

South Africa urged the U.N.'s top court on Thursday to order a halt to Israel's offensive on Rafah, saying attacks on the southern Gaza city "must be stopped" to ensure the survival of the Palestinian people.

The people will survive. But to root out the remaining Hamas battalions and the leadership, taking Rafah is imperative.
Why should Rafah be off limits?

South Africa's ambassador to the Netherlands, Vusimuzi Madonsela, asked judges to order Israel to "immediately, totally and unconditionally, withdraw the Israeli army from the entirety of the Gaza Strip."

And leave Hamas in power. So they can attack Israel again as they have vowed.
This is idiotic.

South Africa also asked the court to order Israel to allow unimpeded access to Gaza for U.N. officials, organisations providing humanitarian aid, journalists and investigators.

UN is strongly biased against Israel. Any UN investigator would not be partial. Just look at that Albanese woman.

Israel's military campaign has killed tens of thousands of children and women, destroyed civilian infrastructure and starved the population, South Africa's legal team told the court.

People get killed in wars. This war was started by Hamas. Nobody else.
Of course, aid needs to be let in. But what about Hamas shooting missiles at the Kerem Shalom crossing?

"From the onset Israel's intent was always to destroy Palestinian life and to wipe them off the face of the earth. Rafah is the final stand," Tembeka Ngcukaitobi, one of the legal team, said.

Rafah is the final stand for the remaining Hamas battalions. I think South Africa is working on behalf of Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

The International Criminal Court’s prosecutor faced demands Tuesday for speedy action against Israeli leaders and a blistering Russian attack over the ICC’s arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin stemming from Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.

There should also be arrest warrants for Ismail Hanniyeh, Khaled Mashal, Ghazi Hamas, Yaya Sinwar etc.

Karim Khan responded by telling the U.N. Security Council that he will not be swayed or intimidated as his team investigates possible war crimes or crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Palestinian territories as well as in Ukraine.

Why no investigation into war crimes by Hamas?

The ICC deals with disputes and crimes by states. Gaza is not a state.

Any country that is a member of ICC can start a case. Until the case is won there doesn’t need to be any substance to an accusation.

I see this case against Netanyahu as pure politics. Since Netanyahu can prove that the IDF has done there best to protect Palestinian civilians, while trying to find the hostages, this case is dead in the water

You skipped arrest warrant.

 

[lpetrich]

Statement of ICC Prosecutor Karim A.A. Khan KC: Applications for arrest warrants in the situation in the State of Palestine | International Criminal Court

On the Hamas side: Yahya SINWAR (Head of the Islamic Resistance Movement (“Hamas”) in the Gaza Strip), Mohammed Diab Ibrahim AL-MASRI, more commonly known as DEIF (Commander-in-Chief of the military wing of Hamas, known as the Al-Qassam Brigades), and Ismail HANIYEH (Head of Hamas Political Bureau)

On the Israeli side: Benjamin NETANYAHU, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav GALLANT, the Minister of Defence of Israel

Violations of the Rome Statute listed in that indictment, allegedly committed by Hamas (H) and/or Israel (I):

• 7(1)(a) - H, I
• 7(1)(b) - H, I
• 7(1)(f) - H
• 7(1)(g) - H
• 7(1)(h) - I
• 7(l)(k) - H, I
• 8(2)(a)(i) - I
• 8(2)(a)(iii) - H, I
• 8(2)(b)(i) - I
• 8(2)(b)(xxv) - I
• 8(2)(c)(i) - H, I
• 8(2)(c)(ii) - H
• 8(2)(c)(iii) - H
• 8(2)(e)(i) - I
• 8(2)(e)(vi) - H

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court - Rome-Statute.pdf
Charging the H and I officials with crimes under Article 7: Crimes against Humanity and Article 8: War Crimes. No charges under Article 6: Genocide, however.

 

[Gospel]

Rounding up the leadership responsible for the deteriorating situation could be a reasonable step towards reducing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Iran made good with a helicopter, and while they have a long way to go, we should still do our part.

 

[lpetrich]

איתמר בן גביר on X: "האג שמאג " / X - I can read the Hebrew alphabet, and IBG did indeed post "Hague Schmague".

Not exactly bragging about Israel's compliance.

Or, they know they are complying already and poking fun at the ruling. What's more likely?

That does not seem very serious.

What's MUCH more likely is that Itamar Ben Gvir was sneering at the ICJ.

schm- - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

English

(chiefly US) Used to form a reduplicated rhyming compound of any word in order to express disparagement, dismissal, or derision.

I have to tell you, madam, that your son is suffering from an Oedipus complex. —Oedipus, Schmoedipus! What does it matter, so long as he loves his mother?

Rain, schmain, we've got a game to play.

 Shm-reduplication

Shm-reduplication is a form of reduplication originating in Yiddish in which the original word or its first syllable (the base) is repeated with the copy (the reduplicant) beginning with shm- (sometimes schm-), pronounced /ʃm/. The construction is generally used to indicate irony, sarcasm, derision, skepticism, or lack of interest with respect to comments about the discussed object. In general, the new combination is used as an interjection.

Using a noun

Shm-reduplication is often used with a noun, as a response to a previously-made statement to express the viewer's doubts (eg. "He's just a baby!", "Baby-shmaby, he's five years old!") or lack of interest ("What a sale!", "Sale, schmale,[1] there's nothing I would want.")

Used as an adjective

When used as an adjective, the reduplicated combination can belong to the same syntactical category as the original.

It can be used as an intensifier, as in "Whenever we go to a fancy-schmancy restaurant, we feel like James Bond."[2] - the speaker is implying that the restaurant is particularly fancy.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Arctish]

Let's see: unsupported assertion linking the ICC to Nazis, "fake court", the g-word, advocating restricting rights and freezing the assets of the court and its employees, wanting them to be prosecuted for "providing material aid" to Nazis (?), and that this should be done by "all people of good faith".

Sounds reasonable </sarcasm>