Charles Blow: At Yale, the Police Detained My Son

[Toni]

I'm sure that, at Yale, when a white person commits a crime, a few white students are accosted at gunpoint by the Campus Police. Yeah, I bet that happens a lot.

You're aware he matched the clothing description, too?

Read more closely: the hypothetical involved a white suspect and white students. It raised a very good point: There is petty theft as well as vandalism and drug use and dealing on college campuses. When the suspect is white, are white students who match the general description similarly put on the ground at gunpoint? At Yale?

Twice, a member of my family has found themselves surrounded by police with firearms drawn. In one instance, the family member very loosely---very very loosely--fit the description of someone wanted in a shooting. In the other, my family member had been the victim of an armed robbery and was the person who called to report the armed robbery. My family member, already traumatized by being held up at gunpoint was then held at gunpoint was further traumatized when responding officers kept their firearms pointed at my family member while screaming orders. You cannot imagine how profoundly grateful we all were that my family members are white.

 

[Trausti]

Its just that anyone who's ever been to college, will know that most college students dress alike. I gave an example of a common mode of dress on a college campus.

I'm not likely to be awed by someone's vaunted position. That whole letter reeks of guilt and excuses.

The police work with the description they're given. What else can they do? We know the race of perp, his gender, and the color of his shirt; but we know nothing about the kind of shoes he's wearing. We're helpless!

- - - Updated - - -

You're aware he matched the clothing description, too?

Read more closely: the hypothetical involved a white suspect and white students. It raised a very good point: There is petty theft as well as vandalism and drug use and dealing on college campuses. When the suspect is white, are white students who match the general description similarly put on the ground at gunpoint? At Yale?

Twice, a member of my family has found themselves surrounded by police with firearms drawn. In one instance, the family member very loosely---very very loosely--fit the description of someone wanted in a shooting. In the other, my family member had been the victim of an armed robbery and was the person who called to report the armed robbery. My family member, already traumatized by being held up at gunpoint was then held at gunpoint was further traumatized when responding officers kept their firearms pointed at my family member while screaming orders. You cannot imagine how profoundly we all were that my family members are white.

Then the black cop who stopped him is a racist pig.

 

[Derec]

Read more closely: the hypothetical involved a white suspect and white students. It raised a very good point: There is petty theft as well as vandalism and drug use and dealing on college campuses. When the suspect is white, are white students who match the general description similarly put on the ground at gunpoint? At Yale?

- the hypothetical involved "a few white students" being accosted, not one white student that fits the description on more than just skin color
- this case involved a series of burglaries and home invasions that is quite a bit more serious than petty theft, vandalism or drug use. Let's compare like with like shall we?

Twice, a member of my family has found themselves surrounded by police with firearms drawn. In one instance, the family member very loosely---very very loosely--fit the description of someone wanted in a shooting. In the other, my family member had been the victim of an armed robbery and was the person who called to report the armed robbery. My family member, already traumatized by being held up at gunpoint was then held at gunpoint was further traumatized when responding officers kept their firearms pointed at my family member while screaming orders. You cannot imagine how profoundly we all were that my family members are white.

Your last sentence lacks the adjective. "Profoundly" what? And are you trying to say your family members were white? Then the fact that they were held at gunpoint in a case of mistaken identity is a point against the "it would never happen to a white guy" claim.

 

[Toni]

The police work with the description they're given. What else can they do? We know the race of perp, his gender, and the color of his shirt; but we know nothing about the kind of shoes he's wearing. We're helpless!

- - - Updated - - -

You're aware he matched the clothing description, too?

Read more closely: the hypothetical involved a white suspect and white students. It raised a very good point: There is petty theft as well as vandalism and drug use and dealing on college campuses. When the suspect is white, are white students who match the general description similarly put on the ground at gunpoint? At Yale?

Twice, a member of my family has found themselves surrounded by police with firearms drawn. In one instance, the family member very loosely---very very loosely--fit the description of someone wanted in a shooting. In the other, my family member had been the victim of an armed robbery and was the person who called to report the armed robbery. My family member, already traumatized by being held up at gunpoint was then held at gunpoint was further traumatized when responding officers kept their firearms pointed at my family member while screaming orders. You cannot imagine how profoundly we all were that my family members are white.

Then the black cop who stopped him is a racist pig.

I don't know who you were responding to, but you make no sense.

There are two major points:

1. Are blacks treated differently than whites by police officers?
2. Are police officers too quick to fire at suspects? Especially black suspects?

 

[Toni]

- the hypothetical involved "a few white students" being accosted, not one white student that fits the description on more than just skin color
- this case involved a series of burglaries and home invasions that is quite a bit more serious than petty theft, vandalism or drug use. Let's compare like with like shall we?

The real questions are:

Are black suspects are treated differently by police than whites are?

Are black people are treated with greater suspicion by police and by the general public than white people are?

Are police are too quick to shoot or otherwise use excessive force with suspects or 'suspects.' And is that speed affected by the race or perceived race of the 'suspect.?

Twice, a member of my family has found themselves surrounded by police with firearms drawn. In one instance, the family member very loosely---very very loosely--fit the description of someone wanted in a shooting. In the other, my family member had been the victim of an armed robbery and was the person who called to report the armed robbery. My family member, already traumatized by being held up at gunpoint was then held at gunpoint was further traumatized when responding officers kept their firearms pointed at my family member while screaming orders. You cannot imagine how profoundly we all were that my family members are white.

Your last sentence lacks the adjective. "Profoundly" what? And are you trying to say your family members were white? Then the fact that they were held at gunpoint in a case of mistaken identity is a point against the "it would never happen to a white guy" claim.

Ah: profoundly GRATEFUL. Thanks for pointing out a deleted word.

You are seriously missing my point. I don't know if it is deliberate or you just don't understand.

Only the first was held in the case of mistaken identity. Yes, we were profoundly grateful that he was white as even though this was years ago, the cops in that area had a serious reputation for shooting black suspects or 'suspects' first and then checking to see if they had the right person after.

In the second case, I realize that the police arrived at the scene expecting that they might encounter an armed suspect although my family member told them that the robber had fled on foot and was vastly different in physical description than the family member who called in the robbery. I realize the need for caution on the part of police and their need to be prepared to encounter a very bad situation. Where our gratitude for being white comes into play is that today, police still have a serious reputation for shooting black suspects or 'suspects' first and checking after to see if there was a gun or if they had the right person, etc. Being white gave my family member an edge that should not have been needed. If my family member had been black, I am not at all certain they would still be alive. There were a lot of guns pointed inches from their face.

 

[dismal]

I'll bet firing this Ronell Higgins will placate racists and racial grievance mongers alike. A real win-win.

 

[Sarpedon]

he police work with the description they're given. What else can they do? We know the race of perp, his gender, and the color of his shirt; but we know nothing about the kind of shoes he's wearing. We're helpless!

And apparently, police work entails sticking a gun in the face of anyone who matches a description.

Here's a concept. How about not sticking a gun in someone's face as the first step in an investigation? How about asking a question? Or watching him for a bit? Or virtually anything other than thinking: OMG, he matches our vague description! DRAW WEAPONS AND PREPARE TO FIRE! When did pulling a weapon become standard police procedure in such routine situations? Even if this were the burglar, burglary isn't a violent crime. Why stick a gun in his face? Your whole position just stinks.

 

[ksen]

Police freely sticking guns in [some] peoples' faces is the small government way.

 

[arkirk]

You can really blame the cop, because he fit the description of a burglar that was on campus a week before.

Where does it say it was a week before?

And as long as blacks commit a disproportionate share of crimes a disproportionate share of blacks will genuinely "fit the description". Instead of blaming the police, perhaps Charles Blow should blame the black crime rates.

Your post was predictable for you...more predictable indeed than the prediction that a black person is statistically more "criminal." I am more aware of your reference catalog of memes than you are. You seem to always want to focus on RACE....AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH BLACK PEOPLE. It is as if you are satisfied they (black people) are inferior and will never overcome their built in flaws...so just dress them down for being black and part of the carnival of crime that race represents to you. You don't seem to realize there are black people who are every bit as "moral" as you are.

 

[dystopian]

Where does it say it was a week before?

And as long as blacks commit a disproportionate share of crimes a disproportionate share of blacks will genuinely "fit the description". Instead of blaming the police, perhaps Charles Blow should blame the black crime rates.

Your post was predictable for you...more predictable indeed than the prediction that a black person is statistically more "criminal." I am more aware of your reference catalog of memes than you are. You seem to always want to focus on RACE....AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH BLACK PEOPLE. It is as if you are satisfied they (black people) are inferior and will never overcome their built in flaws...so just dress them down for being black and part of the carnival of crime that race represents to you. You don't seem to realize there are black people who are every bit as "moral" as you are.

I'm sure he believes there are moral black people; he just likes to think that they're a statistically insignificant subgroup or something and would rather you focus on asking what's up with black people being all immoral and shit.

>.>

<.<

Y'know?

 

[Trausti]

The police work with the description they're given. What else can they do? We know the race of perp, his gender, and the color of his shirt; but we know nothing about the kind of shoes he's wearing. We're helpless!

- - - Updated - - -

You're aware he matched the clothing description, too?

Read more closely: the hypothetical involved a white suspect and white students. It raised a very good point: There is petty theft as well as vandalism and drug use and dealing on college campuses. When the suspect is white, are white students who match the general description similarly put on the ground at gunpoint? At Yale?

Twice, a member of my family has found themselves surrounded by police with firearms drawn. In one instance, the family member very loosely---very very loosely--fit the description of someone wanted in a shooting. In the other, my family member had been the victim of an armed robbery and was the person who called to report the armed robbery. My family member, already traumatized by being held up at gunpoint was then held at gunpoint was further traumatized when responding officers kept their firearms pointed at my family member while screaming orders. You cannot imagine how profoundly we all were that my family members are white.

Then the black cop who stopped him is a racist pig.

I don't know who you were responding to, but you make no sense.

There are two major points:

1. Are blacks treated differently than whites by police officers?
2. Are police officers too quick to fire at suspects? Especially black suspects?

1. Yes, they're less likely to get shot: http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7653755-Cops-hesitate-more-err-less-when-shooting-black-suspects-study-finds/
2. No one was shot in this instance. See No. 1.

 

[Toni]

The police work with the description they're given. What else can they do? We know the race of perp, his gender, and the color of his shirt; but we know nothing about the kind of shoes he's wearing. We're helpless!

- - - Updated - - -

You're aware he matched the clothing description, too?

Read more closely: the hypothetical involved a white suspect and white students. It raised a very good point: There is petty theft as well as vandalism and drug use and dealing on college campuses. When the suspect is white, are white students who match the general description similarly put on the ground at gunpoint? At Yale?

Twice, a member of my family has found themselves surrounded by police with firearms drawn. In one instance, the family member very loosely---very very loosely--fit the description of someone wanted in a shooting. In the other, my family member had been the victim of an armed robbery and was the person who called to report the armed robbery. My family member, already traumatized by being held up at gunpoint was then held at gunpoint was further traumatized when responding officers kept their firearms pointed at my family member while screaming orders. You cannot imagine how profoundly we all were that my family members are white.

Then the black cop who stopped him is a racist pig.

I don't know who you were responding to, but you make no sense.

There are two major points:

1. Are blacks treated differently than whites by police officers?
2. Are police officers too quick to fire at suspects? Especially black suspects?

1. Yes, they're less likely to get shot: http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7653755-Cops-hesitate-more-err-less-when-shooting-black-suspects-study-finds/
2. No one was shot in this instance. See No. 1.

Your #1 statement doesn't follow even the link you provided. Plus, I hate to burst your bubble, but the study in the link you provided is a)limited only to police officers in the Spokane, WA area and says nothing about the behavior of police officers in other areas or as a group, nationally. b) The study did not collect data about actual police shootings and do any sort of statistical analysis on whether there were differences in the numbers of black vs whites who were shot by police. Instead, it is a simulated study in which police officers were provided scenarios and their shoot time in a simulator was measured and recorded. In other words, it was a lab experiment, not real life data.

Here:
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/sep/05/wsu-study-finds-local-officers-slower-to-fire-at/

Thirty law enforcement officers from local agencies were tested in the lab, which employs a training simulator used by many police departments throughout the country to simulate common interactions in the field, such as a domestic violence dispute or a reported robbery attempt.

The elements of the scenarios were presented in ratios that mirrored those of the FBI’s statistics on use-of-force incidents reported from cities nationwide. These included race of the suspect, time of day and aggressiveness of the armed individual. Participants were given a replica Glock handgun similar to the one carried by many law enforcement agencies, equipped with sensors that measured, within fractions of a second, when participants fired.

According to the results of the research, law enforcement took 1.34 seconds longer to shoot a black suspect than a white suspect when all other factors were the same. Members of the public, recruited for a separate study, delayed their decisions to use lethal force against a black suspect by 0.68 seconds compared to a white suspect. There was no significant difference between the delay in shooting for white and Hispanic suspects in either group.

Participants were not told they were being studied for reactions based on the race of the suspect in the videos.

I have a hard time believing that study participants had no clue that their response to 'targets' was not being evaluated. They knew they were being watched and evaluated.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is an example of behaving correctly when faced with a felony stop. Nobody hurt, nobody arrested.

It's what I have been saying for years--how you behave with the police makes a big difference in the outcome of the situation.

 

[Trausti]

Your #1 statement doesn't follow even the link you provided. Plus, I hate to burst your bubble, but the study in the link you provided is a)limited only to police officers in the Spokane, WA area and says nothing about the behavior of police officers in other areas or as a group, nationally. b) The study did not collect data about actual police shootings and do any sort of statistical analysis on whether there were differences in the numbers of black vs whites who were shot by police. Instead, it is a simulated study in which police officers were provided scenarios and their shoot time in a simulator was measured and recorded. In other words, it was a lab experiment, not real life data.

Are you able to rebut with a peer-reviewed, double-blind study, establishing your position beyond anecdote? Regardless, for the OP, what matters is what matters in this instance. The cop responded to a person who fit the description and no one was shot.

 

[Toni]

Your #1 statement doesn't follow even the link you provided. Plus, I hate to burst your bubble, but the study in the link you provided is a)limited only to police officers in the Spokane, WA area and says nothing about the behavior of police officers in other areas or as a group, nationally. b) The study did not collect data about actual police shootings and do any sort of statistical analysis on whether there were differences in the numbers of black vs whites who were shot by police. Instead, it is a simulated study in which police officers were provided scenarios and their shoot time in a simulator was measured and recorded. In other words, it was a lab experiment, not real life data.

Are you able to rebut with a peer-reviewed, double-blind study, establishing your position beyond anecdote? Regardless, for the OP, what matters is what matters in this instance. The cop responded to a person who fit the description and no one was shot.

Dude: I used the exact same study you linked. The exact same study. I just found a better article that actually explained how the study ---that is , the study described in the link YOU provided--was conducted. You linked to a police publication which did a terrible job of summarizing the article.
You should read more carefully.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why couldn't the cops in this case just approach the suspect, ask for ID, and detain without going into full-blown take-down guns-drawn mode? (I know, that's a lot of hyphens)

 

[Nexus]

Shock and awe.

 

[Trausti]

Are you able to rebut with a peer-reviewed, double-blind study, establishing your position beyond anecdote? Regardless, for the OP, what matters is what matters in this instance. The cop responded to a person who fit the description and no one was shot.

Dude: I used the exact same study you linked. The exact same study. I just found a better article that actually explained how the study ---that is , the study described in the link YOU provided--was conducted. You linked to a police publication which did a terrible job of summarizing the article.
You should read more carefully.

No. You're insinuating that the student here was treated differently by the Yale police because he's black. Which is complete bullshit.

 

[Toni]

Dude: I used the exact same study you linked. The exact same study. I just found a better article that actually explained how the study ---that is , the study described in the link YOU provided--was conducted. You linked to a police publication which did a terrible job of summarizing the article.
You should read more carefully.

No. You're insinuating that the student here was treated differently by the Yale police because he's black. Which is complete bullshit.

I insinuated nothing.

I said that was one of the important questions: was this student treated differently than a white student would have been in similar circumstances.

You linked an article that inaccurately represented a very limited study's scope and conclusions. In fact, you claimed that the study proved blacks were less likely to be shot by police, a claim not made or supported by the study referred to in your article. Apparently you didn't read your own link and you certainly did not read the article I linked about the same study nor the study itself.

The other important question that should be asked is of police are too quick to draw their weapons. Every time a police officer draws a weapon, someone's life is put at risk. Every single time, the important question to ask is if that risk is justified

 

[RavenSky]

This is an example of behaving correctly when faced with a felony stop. Nobody hurt, nobody arrested.

It's what I have been saying for years--how you behave with the police makes a big difference in the outcome of the situation.

Must be the Yale culture, right Loren?

I find it *interesting* that you still excuse that the cop never even asked for ID until long after stopping the young man at gun point.

Now, don’t get me wrong: If indeed my son matched the description of a suspect, I would have had no problem with him being questioned appropriately. School is his community, his home away from home, and he would have appreciated reasonable efforts to keep it safe. The stop is not the problem; the method of the stop is the problem.

Why was a gun drawn first? Why was he not immediately told why he was being detained? Why not ask for ID first?