A spectre is haunting Europe ...

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Horatio, what have you got so strongly against personal responsibility that it makes you accuse people of wanting to destroy Greece?

What have you got so strongly against society that it makes you accuse people of wanting to destroy personal responsibility?

What have you got against personal responsibility that makes you want to accuse people of being against society?

 

[Horatio Parker]

What have you got so strongly against society that it makes you accuse people of wanting to destroy personal responsibility?

What have you got against personal responsibility that makes you want to accuse people of being against society?

I'm just trying to match your level of incoherence.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, people do impose the condition that they must be paid for goods and services. No one likes to have to pay for things. It'd be great if people offered things for free rather than imposing a requirement for payment (or in the case of lending, a requirement to be repaid).

The austerity measures made it less likely people will be paid back.

Degrade an economy and you make it less likely people will be paid back.

Some Keynesian spending in hard times makes it more likely people will be paid back.

The problem was that the Greeks were doing the Keynesian spending during the good times, too. They were handed the EuroZone credit card and spent as if tomorrow never comes. But it did. Now they're behaving like a petulant child angry at his parents for withholding his allowance for failure to do his chores. (Apologies to any chore-eschewing petulant children who might be reading this tread.)

 

[ZiprHead]

Yes, let's let people die because money is more important.

"For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died." Pink Floyd - Us and Them

Stop the hyperbole, we aren't talking about deaths but things like smaller pensions and higher retirement age and fewer government jobs.

You are using the same kind of inane rhetoric as the republicans who talk about death panels.

Did you not read the link I provided?

 

[Axulus]

Stop the hyperbole, we aren't talking about deaths but things like smaller pensions and higher retirement age and fewer government jobs.

You are using the same kind of inane rhetoric as the republicans who talk about death panels.

Did you not read the link I provided?

If the only part that the Syriza party wanted to change was to ensure food and medical for all, abd were willing to cut pyblic sector jovs to help pay for that, you'd have a point. But they don't want to just do that, now do they?

 

[Medicine Man]

Background: Greece found itself in dire economic straits. EU agreed to bail them out but linked it to spending reforms.
In any case many Greeks disliked the imposed austerity which led to rise of both left wing and right wing radical parties and now the left wing incarnation is going to have power.

Ya' gotta give the Greeks credit, for studying....

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...What Actually WORK$!!!!
January 16, 2015

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"The University of Michigan's preliminary reading on the overall index on consumer sentiment for this month came in at 98.2, the highest since January 2004 and above the median forecast of 94.1 among 72 economists polled by Reuters. The final December reading was 93.6."

 

[untermensche]

The austerity measures made it less likely people will be paid back.

Degrade an economy and you make it less likely people will be paid back.

Some Keynesian spending in hard times makes it more likely people will be paid back.

The problem was that the Greeks were doing the Keynesian spending during the good times, too. They were handed the EuroZone credit card and spent as if tomorrow never comes. But it did. Now they're behaving like a petulant child angry at his parents for withholding his allowance for failure to do his chores. (Apologies to any chore-eschewing petulant children who might be reading this tread.)

It isn't Keynesian spending if it is done in good times.

Keynesian spending is spending in bad times when the private sector isn't spending.

And they aren't behaving like spoiled children they are behaving as wise children that understand when policies are doing more harm than good.

 

[dismal]

The problem was that the Greeks were doing the Keynesian spending during the good times, too. They were handed the EuroZone credit card and spent as if tomorrow never comes. But it did. Now they're behaving like a petulant child angry at his parents for withholding his allowance for failure to do his chores. (Apologies to any chore-eschewing petulant children who might be reading this tread.)

It isn't Keynesian spending if it is done in good times.

Keynesian spending is spending in bad times when the private sector isn't spending.

And they aren't behaving like spoiled children they are behaving as wise children that understand when policies are doing more harm than good.

I'm not feeling you have a grip on the essential problem here.

The "policy" of spending other people's money only works so long as other people are willing to give you money.

 

[Medicine Man]

It's lookin' like Greece has spawned some fans!!!​

Spanish Anti-Austerity Party; Hopes To Emulate Greeks
January 27, 2015

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"The one-year old Podemos party are already equal to the Popular and Socialist parties according to some polls.

If there is one country in Europe where the fallout of the Sunday’s election result in Greece is felt most keenly, it is Spain.

Like in Athens, the government in Madrid has relied on a European bailout to support the economy and it has suffered from high unemployment, a large budget deficit and deteriorating living conditions.

What worries the administration of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy most, is, like in Greece, the presence of a start-up political party whose aim is to take on the establishment and upset four decades of political homogeneity.

Podemos, which translates as “We Can”, was formed almost a year ago, and in some polls is already equal with the center-right governing Popular Party and the opposition Socialists. Rajoy was so concerned that a victory for Podemos’s ‘sister party’ Syriza in Greece would provide a boost for Podemos in Spain that he travelled to Athens to support the then Greek prime minister, Antonio Samaras, before last Sunday’s poll. The Podemos leader, Pablo Iglesias, responded in kind by making an appearance at Syriza’s last election rally, alongside Alexis Tsipras.

Podemos, a coalition of leftists, the poor, intellectuals and the disaffected middle classes, is due to hold a rally in Madrid on Saturday, the start of the countdown to change, it says. Iglesias likes using the imagery of ticking clock, “tick, tock, tick, tock,” he says in interviews. The message is clear. His time is coming, and that of the Spanish establishment is running out."

 

[untermensche]

It isn't Keynesian spending if it is done in good times.

Keynesian spending is spending in bad times when the private sector isn't spending.

And they aren't behaving like spoiled children they are behaving as wise children that understand when policies are doing more harm than good.

I'm not feeling you have a grip on the essential problem here.

The "policy" of spending other people's money only works so long as other people are willing to give you money.

You spend it to keep the economy moving.

You spend it so everybody benefits, not just the rich who benefit when people are in misery and desperate.

 

[Medicine Man]

It isn't Keynesian spending if it is done in good times.

Keynesian spending is spending in bad times when the private sector isn't spending.

And they aren't behaving like spoiled children they are behaving as wise children that understand when policies are doing more harm than good.

I'm not feeling you have a grip on the essential problem here.

The "policy" of spending other people's money only works so long as other people are willing to give you money.​

So, you're suggesting.....during the Meltdown....those Wall $treet banks has assumed gambling-away depo$itor$' buck$ was perfectly-FINE with their depo$itor$???? ​

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral. Doesn't matter whether it was a left wing party elected or a right wing party. Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

It was not forced on them. Austerity was the price to pay for additional credit. They could have chosen to crash instead.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's less of a spectre than it was. A year or so ago, the fear was that if Greece exited the Euro, Spain, Portugal and Italy might follow. That's no longer a concern. OTOH, if the Germans agree to debt relief for Greece, those countries will want some too.

So if Greece leaves the EU, they can use a devalued currency. That will mean more pain, but it will also enable their economy to grow again. If they stay in the EU, they'll get more of the status quo.

But default is not new there. There was in negotiated default in 2012.

Actually I agree. The solution for Greece is not easy, but for them it is preferable to paying off their debts. Default. Argentina (and a few others) have shown that after a few years of difficulty, the international loan sources are more than happy to start lending again - and then the borrower defaults again. The financiers never learn.

However, the problem is that a new government would want to go back to its old ways immediately, rather than use the opportunity to transform the Greek economy.

Greece is going to have to go through a lot of pain until the people recognize that they can't live on credit. They still haven't learned their lesson, no government that would actually fix things could get elected there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Approximately 0.43% of Germany's exports go to Greece. My guess is there are better uses of their 240 billion euros than propping up Greece if they want to encourage exports.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/hs/export/deu/show/all/2012/

Glad to hear the EU is such great shape that member nations are expendable.

Are you hoping to pick up the Parthenon for a song?

The issue with Greece is that they continue to be a problem. There comes a point where supporting a basket case is a bad idea and I think we've passed that point with Greece.

 

[untermensche]

The issue with Greece is that they continue to be a problem. There comes a point where supporting a basket case is a bad idea and I think we've passed that point with Greece.

Sure, impose disastrous policies that do more harm than good and then claim it is the victims of those policies that are to blame.

 

[Horatio Parker]

The issue with Greece is that they continue to be a problem. There comes a point where supporting a basket case is a bad idea and I think we've passed that point with Greece.

Sure, impose disastrous policies that do more harm than good and then claim it is the victims of those policies that are to blame.

And extract rents from them in perpetuity.

 

[ksen]

You guys know that Greece is currently running a surplus, right?

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2014/cr14151.pdf

Greece has continued to make significant progress in rebalancing the economy. The scale of pre-crisis imbalances and indebtedness—an overall fiscal deficit of 15½ percent of GDP at end-2009, an external current account deficit of 11 percent of GDP, and public debt of nearly 130 percent of GDP—meant that Greece had no option but to undertake a sizeable adjustment, when the capital inflows that financed them came to a sudden stop in early 2010. By end-2013, the primary fiscal and external current account balances were in surplus. To have reached a surplus so swiftly is an extraordinary adjustment by any international comparison.

The argument now is about how much of that surplus should go to creditors and how much Greece should be able to keep to spend on further improvements.

 

[ZiprHead]

It's lookin' like Greece has spawned some fans!!!​

Spanish Anti-Austerity Party; Hopes To Emulate Greeks
January 27, 2015

*​

"The one-year old Podemos party are already equal to the Popular and Socialist parties according to some polls.

If there is one country in Europe where the fallout of the Sunday’s election result in Greece is felt most keenly, it is Spain.

Like in Athens, the government in Madrid has relied on a European bailout to support the economy and it has suffered from high unemployment, a large budget deficit and deteriorating living conditions.

What worries the administration of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy most, is, like in Greece, the presence of a start-up political party whose aim is to take on the establishment and upset four decades of political homogeneity.

Podemos, which translates as “We Can”, was formed almost a year ago, and in some polls is already equal with the center-right governing Popular Party and the opposition Socialists. Rajoy was so concerned that a victory for Podemos’s ‘sister party’ Syriza in Greece would provide a boost for Podemos in Spain that he travelled to Athens to support the then Greek prime minister, Antonio Samaras, before last Sunday’s poll. The Podemos leader, Pablo Iglesias, responded in kind by making an appearance at Syriza’s last election rally, alongside Alexis Tsipras.

Podemos, a coalition of leftists, the poor, intellectuals and the disaffected middle classes, is due to hold a rally in Madrid on Saturday, the start of the countdown to change, it says. Iglesias likes using the imagery of ticking clock, “tick, tock, tick, tock,” he says in interviews. The message is clear. His time is coming, and that of the Spanish establishment is running out."

While I agree with your sentiments and I find your posts valuable and informative, epilepsy runs in my family and I feel like I'm going to spazz out and start flopping around on the floor while reading your formatting.

 

[Togo]

You guys know that Greece is currently running a surplus, right?

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2014/cr14151.pdf

Greece has continued to make significant progress in rebalancing the economy. The scale of pre-crisis imbalances and indebtedness—an overall fiscal deficit of 15½ percent of GDP at end-2009, an external current account deficit of 11 percent of GDP, and public debt of nearly 130 percent of GDP—meant that Greece had no option but to undertake a sizeable adjustment, when the capital inflows that financed them came to a sudden stop in early 2010. By end-2013, the primary fiscal and external current account balances were in surplus. To have reached a surplus so swiftly is an extraordinary adjustment by any international comparison.

The argument now is about how much of that surplus should go to creditors and how much Greece should be able to keep to spend on further improvements.

And whether they should stay in the Euro. The problem with sharing a currency with Germany is that your currency ends up being overvalued compared to the local economy, and your exports suffer as a result. The advantage of sharing a currency with Greece is that your currency ends being undervalued compared to the local economy, and you end up with your exports being far more competitive than they otherwise would be. The effect is a transfer of wealth from Greece to Germany.

 

[dismal]

You guys know that Greece is currently running a surplus, right?

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2014/cr14151.pdf

Greece has continued to make significant progress in rebalancing the economy. The scale of pre-crisis imbalances and indebtedness—an overall fiscal deficit of 15½ percent of GDP at end-2009, an external current account deficit of 11 percent of GDP, and public debt of nearly 130 percent of GDP—meant that Greece had no option but to undertake a sizeable adjustment, when the capital inflows that financed them came to a sudden stop in early 2010. By end-2013, the primary fiscal and external current account balances were in surplus. To have reached a surplus so swiftly is an extraordinary adjustment by any international comparison.

The argument now is about how much of that surplus should go to creditors and how much Greece should be able to keep to spend on further improvements.

And you are aware the topic of this thread is that they just elected a bunch of leftish buffoons who will likely put a stop to that?

Although I'm sure in hindsight when we examine the wreckage they will have stopped somewhere short of *real*socialism