Venezuela - Updated Chronicles in Socialist Success Stories!

[Axulus]

America attacked Germany in 1917, and again in 1942, so clearly, America has history of aggression against Germany.

Now, Germany is battling a severe measles outbreak.

Ergo, America (and Joe Biden in particular) must be behind the measles outbreak in Germany, even though we don't really know how.

I think that pretty much sums up untermensche's "logic" with regards to US involvement in Venezuela's shortages.

He considers a sternly worded statement: "We think there ought to be a recount" - to be involvement.

Now, more controversial was the U.S. National Endowment for Democracy organization that gave money/grants to groups in Venezuela that were supposedly protecting/promoting democracy and fundamental human rights in Venezuela but later ended up being involved in the coup attempt against Chavez. Unter sees this as proof positive that the US was behind the coup and funneling money to bring it about, but there is no evidence to suggest that the US encouraged the coup or knew that the groups the NED was giving money to were planning any sort of coup. These things happen in politically volatile countries. Not to mention, the US had reason to be supportive of the political opposition in Venezuela that had nothing to do with the leftist policies they wanted to implement: the Chavez government was very anti-US. Finally, let's not forget that the coup attempt happened in 2002 - 13 years ago. It has no bearing on what is happening today.

Oh, and apparently our free press has a few stories every now and then that paints the Venezuelan government in a negative light.

This is the best evidence he has for any sort of US involvement in Venezuela.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is that the real reason why he is only producing half, or is he taking orders from Joe Biden? Hmmm, the mystery deepens.

The story continues:



http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...venezuela-is-now-poor-in-most-everything-else

You misunderstand.

It is the secret US policies, not Joe's policies that are at work here.

And they are only part of the picture.

If these anecdotes are true it sounds as if the policies are keeping the businesses small. To me that is good.

But what also has to happen is more businesses need to grow. This takes stimulation of growth. You need some Keynesian spending to stimulate growth.

I think some of that is happening but obviously more is needed.

You sound like Baghdad Bob!

The problem isn't one of demand--the demand is obviously there. The problem is the government is loading down business to the point it can't function. Businesses have absolutely no reason to grow because of the political climate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What's the difference between telling a company it has to sell a certain amount of product at a certain price and a tax?

A tax is charged based on income or as a percent of the price and remitted to the government. Forcing a company to sell a product at a certain price is what's called a price ceiling. No money is remitted to the government. It is not based on profit or anything relating to the underlying economics of the business.

Isn't it pretty self explanatory?

He's reasonable in calling it a tax. It's just an off-the-books welfare scheme.

By itself it wouldn't even be that big a deal. Sell half the product for peanuts, double the price on the rest. What was really killing him was the bureaucracy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Occam's butter knife par excellence.

Your opinion and lack of any substance is noted.

How does the US get populations to move in directions it favors?

It uses the press. We saw that as clear as day in the buildup to the invasion of Iraq.

Chavez won election after election yet according to the US press he was some kind of hated dictator.

They weren't honest elections.

Consider one very simple tactic he used: Under Venezuelan law someone facing criminal charges can't run for office.

This makes it very simple to remove any candidate you don't like: Charge him with a crime. No investigation, no trial, just the charges.

- - - Updated - - -

No, I want you to provide some plausible evidence to support your claim. I'm looking for some credible explanation of how the US is causing shortages, inflation, lack of investment and black markets as opposed to Venezuela's internal economic policies which are commonly understood to cause shortages, inflation, lack of investment and black markets.

Right now you seem to be working on faith alone.

It's not faith to say that long standing US policies don't magically change for no reason.

Find an example of a nation in the Western hemisphere that tried to break free from the US dominated system that wasn't attacked.

You still don't get it--it's not economics, it's politics. We undermined anyone who joined the Soviet block.

 

[Axulus]

A tax is charged based on income or as a percent of the price and remitted to the government. Forcing a company to sell a product at a certain price is what's called a price ceiling. No money is remitted to the government. It is not based on profit or anything relating to the underlying economics of the business.

Isn't it pretty self explanatory?

He's reasonable in calling it a tax. It's just an off-the-books welfare scheme.

By itself it wouldn't even be that big a deal. Sell half the product for peanuts, double the price on the rest. What was really killing him was the bureaucracy.

There are also price caps on the rest or at least implicit ones: "charge too much and we'll come and arrest you."

Calling a tax just muddies the definitions of words. A tax is a financial levy. Forcing someone to sell a certain amount of product at a fixed price is not that.

 

[untermensche]

He's reasonable in calling it a tax. It's just an off-the-books welfare scheme.

By itself it wouldn't even be that big a deal. Sell half the product for peanuts, double the price on the rest. What was really killing him was the bureaucracy.

There are also price caps on the rest or at least implicit ones: "charge too much and we'll come and arrest you."

Calling a tax just muddies the definitions of words. A tax is a financial levy. Forcing someone to sell a certain amount of product at a fixed price is not that.

It is nothing but a tax. It is a government mandated expense.

But as I said it is a tax that can't be avoided.

That is the biggest problem some have with it.

 

[Axulus]

There are also price caps on the rest or at least implicit ones: "charge too much and we'll come and arrest you."

Calling a tax just muddies the definitions of words. A tax is a financial levy. Forcing someone to sell a certain amount of product at a fixed price is not that.

It is nothing but a tax. It is a government mandated expense.

But as I said it is a tax that can't be avoided.

That is the biggest problem some have with it.

A tax is a subset of government mandated expenses. It is a financial levy. Some regulations result in mandated expenses being incurred. Are these regulations taxes? Why are you using such odd definitions of words when the current definitions serve the situation just fine?

If the point you are trying to make is that this regulation has the same economic impact as a tax (why don't you just say so?), I have to ask: compared to what tax? There are dozens of different kinds of taxes.

 

[untermensche]

It is nothing but a tax. It is a government mandated expense.

But as I said it is a tax that can't be avoided.

That is the biggest problem some have with it.

A tax is a subset of government mandated expenses. It is a financial levy. Some regulations result in mandated expenses being incurred. Are these regulations taxes? Why are you using such odd definitions of words when the current definitions serve the situation just fine?

If the point you are trying to make is that this regulation has the same economic impact as a tax (why don't you just say so?), I have to ask: compared to what tax? There are dozens of different kinds of taxes.

It isn't a regulation.

The regulation is written in some document.

It is a tax. A cost that is required to be paid to the government.

In this case the payment is in goods not money.

 

[maxparrish]

Aren't they having fun building socialism? Recent experience is a guide to the future festivities, the "hoarders" will be followed up by the arrest of "wreckers" and "saboteurs".

Naturally, a new reality series spinoff is in the works, a delightful bit of programming called "Show Trials " and the weekly tearful confessions of the imprisoned.

Venezuela Confronts Retail Sector
Caracas Arrests CEO of Chain Store, Seizes Business, Alleging It Hoarded Goods; 20 Other Executives Held


By EZEQUIEL MINAYA and SARA SCHAEFER MUÑOZ
Feb. 9, 2015 7:38 p.m. ET

CARACAS—Retailing is becoming an increasingly risky business in Venezuela, a country struggling with shortages of basic goods, soaring prices and hourslong customer lines.

In the past week, the CEO of supermarket chain Día Día was arrested after a meeting in the presidential palace, two dozen of its store managers brought in for questioning, and all 35 stores taken over by the government.

Behind the Venezuelan government’s moves is its allegation that Día Día and other chains are hoarding food in an attempt to sow instability and overthrow the government.

Companies reject that charge. “If you want the cooperation of private enterprise the best way to get it is probably not by arresting people coming out of the presidential palace,” said José Aguerrevere, the founder and part owner of Día Día supermarket chain, who wasn’t arrested.

It wasn’t the government’s first recent confrontation with big retailers. This month, officials arrested several managers of Farmatodo, a major drugstore chain. The government said it has arrested more than 20 executives of food and goods companies and their distributors this year.

The Día Día chief, Manuel Morales, was charged with sabotage and destabilizing the economy.

Venezuela is in the throes of a deepening economic crisis. Consumers face widespread shortages of price-controlled products ranging from deodorant to milk. Price controls and nationalizations have hurt local production, and currency controls have starved the economy of dollars needed for imports, many economists say.

But the government blames the private sector for the shortages, saying that businesses are purposefully hoarding products to enrage Venezuelans and destabilize the government. President Nicolás Maduro, in announcing the takeover of Día Día, said the chain was “carrying out a war against the people.” He said the chain would be folded in to the state food distribution system.

Some of the company’s 800 employees wonder about their fate as government agents descend on the stores following Friday’s announcement. The government has already seized nearly a quarter of the food retailer’s inventory, company officials said.

State inspectors and security forces have begun trying to take the operation out of store managers’ hands, said Yohana Carrillo, a 23-year-old manager at a storefront in the center of the capital here. “They have come here, insulting us, telling us that they are in charge. What’s going to happen to us?” she asked.

Many businessmen in Venezuela say they fear talking publicly because they say the government casts them as villains or traitors. But Mr. Aguerrevere said that he was going public in the hopes of gaining Mr. Morales’s release.

Mr. Aguerrevere said he also was seeking to defend his company. Before Día Día, which has 35 stores in the country’s impoverished zones, most poor people bought their food at local mom-and-pop shops that charged about 30% more than the country’s bigger supermarkets, he said. ...

Can you pronounce G..u..l..a..g?

PS:http://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuela-confronts-retail-sector-1423528705

 

[untermensche]

Behind the Venezuelan government’s moves is its allegation that Día Día and other chains are hoarding food in an attempt to sow instability and overthrow the government.

Is this true or not?

Because if it is true then that is one thing and if it is not that is another.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

He's reasonable in calling it a tax. It's just an off-the-books welfare scheme.

By itself it wouldn't even be that big a deal. Sell half the product for peanuts, double the price on the rest. What was really killing him was the bureaucracy.

There are also price caps on the rest or at least implicit ones: "charge too much and we'll come and arrest you."

Calling a tax just muddies the definitions of words. A tax is a financial levy. Forcing someone to sell a certain amount of product at a fixed price is not that.

It's a tax paid in goods rather than currency.

 

[untermensche]

There are also price caps on the rest or at least implicit ones: "charge too much and we'll come and arrest you."

Calling a tax just muddies the definitions of words. A tax is a financial levy. Forcing someone to sell a certain amount of product at a fixed price is not that.

It's a tax paid in goods rather than currency.

No kidding.

It is only a great mystery to those who don't want to see.

 

[dismal]

Behind the Venezuelan government’s moves is its allegation that Día Día and other chains are hoarding food in an attempt to sow instability and overthrow the government.

I guess the whole "the capitalists will sell us the ropes we will use to hang them" turns out not to be true.

They won't even sell us toilet paper and deodorant.

 

[untermensche]

Behind the Venezuelan government’s moves is its allegation that Día Día and other chains are hoarding food in an attempt to sow instability and overthrow the government.

I guess the whole "the capitalists will sell us the ropes we will use to hang them" turns out not to be true.

They won't even sell us toilet paper and deodorant.

Capitalists will do a lot to maintain or restore their advantages.

Labor unions were attacked and people killed to maintain child labor.

 

[Axulus]

I guess the whole "the capitalists will sell us the ropes we will use to hang them" turns out not to be true.

They won't even sell us toilet paper and deodorant.

Capitalists will do a lot to maintain or restore their advantages.

Labor unions were attacked and people killed to maintain child labor.

Chavez attacked the unions. They unions were very much against Chavez.

 

[ksen]

Oh, so Chavez was a capitalist then.

 

[dismal]

Oh, so Chavez was a capitalist then.

That's why the socialists defend him.

 

[untermensche]

Capitalists will do a lot to maintain or restore their advantages.

Labor unions were attacked and people killed to maintain child labor.

Chavez attacked the unions. They unions were very much against Chavez.

He had disagreements with the unions. He didn't attack and kill them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Behind the Venezuelan government’s moves is its allegation that Día Día and other chains are hoarding food in an attempt to sow instability and overthrow the government.

Is this true or not?

Because if it is true then that is one thing and if it is not that is another.

It makes no sense that they would do so. It would only cost them for no gain.

They just need someone to blame for the shortages other than their own mismanagement.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's a tax paid in goods rather than currency.

No kidding.

It is only a great mystery to those who don't want to see.

No, you can argue it either way. I don't mind calling it a tax but some could legitimately say it was not a tax.