Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse.

True. It is also true it could have been less worse for the Palestinians as well.-

Continuing to assert this doesn't make it true.

IMO, it takes a serious lack of imagination to think it was not possible for less destruction and less death (not even 5% less). Really, Israel's response was not caused by an immutable physical law.

Your "solution" consists of the faith-based position that there must be a better answer. It's the biggest failing of the left.

To quote someone in this thread "Continuing to asset this doesn't make it true".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's another option.

Israel's Muslim neighbors, particularly the Palestinians, decide that they would prefer cooperation, prosperity, and peace. Instead of conflict, poverty, and war.

Given the history of the centuries, the last 70+ years in particular, it will probably take a generation or two before the Israelis believe in the change. But the most current assault (Oct 7, 2023) probably added another generation.
Tom

Okay, let's go with that.

What treaty or set of accords do you propose for both the Palestinians and the Israelis to adopt to settle their dispute? What are the general terms, how are they different from previous agreements that failed to result in peace, and how will they be implemented and enforced?

You're the one who thinks it can be resolved by talking, you're asking him to provide your solution.

He's not proposing negotiation, he's proposing that the Palestinians quit poking the porcupine.

And you're making the fundamental error of thinking the Palestinians can negotiate. Your location says "Alaska", think Alaska could make a treaty with Russia?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Misdirection, again.

Tigers! isn't arguing for that position, he's reframing it to make it obvious that it's not an answer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

*Hamas says the "Zionist entity" must go. Whether or not that means the complete removal of all Jews from Palestine is not clear, but it is obvious they do not want a Jewish State there, and will not tolerate Christian and Muslims Palestinians to be subjugated by one.

I am still looking for the part of the Hamas Charter where it says Jews are welcome.

You won't find it.

We already know that.

But if you're interested in the part of the Charter that says "Hamas confirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but against the Zionists who occupy Palestine", or where it says "Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds", you can go back to that part of the discussion here, or look up the Charter itself.

What is the practical (oh that word again!) difference between a Zionist who is occupying Palestine and a Jew who lives in Israel? Can that Jew stay or will they be killed or forced to flee? The wording is very clever. It makes it sound like Hamas are being magmanious but in reality allows them to do what ever they wish to whomever they dislike.

I agree with you. It's clever wording that avoids making an explicit call for ethnic cleansing. If you remembered anything about that exchange with Loren you would have remembered that I was not saying I trust Hamas or think that anyone else should. I thought I was making that clear when I said:

*** Just to reiterate, I believe Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballots. The Charter has some good passages and concepts but IMO there are way too many terrorists in the organization for it to live up to its own ideals.

At what point can we just move on from basic points of agreement?

The problem here is that your position is based on an impossibility. Hamas can't be defeated on the ground, thus what can be done when they are defeated is meaningless.

We've been agreeing since the beginning of this thread that the hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end, and yet that same high horse came galloping in just last week bearing a rider asking if I agreed that returning the hostages dead or alive would be a good start to a cessation of hostilities.

That poor horse is going to die if y'all don't give it a rest.

Then give the horse a rest!

Should I make a list of the points on which we all agree?

We all agree that:

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians.

You can "agree" with this but you will not accept it's actual accomplishment. Nor will you recognize it's impossibility.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And here we are back to practical matters. Who will provide the force to return the hostages? You have made it abundant clear that you do not want/wish Israel to do so.

When did I do that?

Please be specific.

Link to those posts and quote me.

There's nothing to quote because it's a negative. You want Israel to accomplish this with law enforcement type enforcement, not with military type enforcement. Your example of how to do it was an abysmal failure that killed far more civilians than the Israeli approach would have.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I want you to notice that I specifically said I do not believe that all Israel ever does is commit war crimes. I want you to see that I specifically said Israel has conducted military operations in the past that did not include things like green-lighting strikes with likely civilian casualties of up to 100 people if the intended target was considered "high ranking" or up to 20 innocents if they were suspected low level Hamas members, and that I believed it was in Israel's best interests to go back to the more restrained ROE the IDF used in years past.

Note that they are talking about the ROEs rather than the results because the results do not portray the horror you are trying to pretend.

I want you to see past the strawman arguments that you and others keep making, and read what I actually wrote.

We have read it, it's just we don't accept your handwaves.

I think what I said immediately after ^that^ is where our conversation keeps breaking down. I think you are making an endless Excluded Middle fallacy, where anything less than full throated support for Israel no matter how it conducts its campaign in Gaza is characterized as being anti-Israel, anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist, and against trying to rescue hostages unless Hamas is using them as human shields in which case you're supposed to shoot babies or something.

Notably you still have not addressed what to do when Hamas is hiding behind babies. That's one of the handwaves we are objecting to.

I want you to quote me so I can see where you got the idea that I do not want/wish Israel to rescue the hostages.

You do not want Israel to engage in the sort of action required to rescue the hostages.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Ziprhead made the suggestion that theJews/Israelis could leave the ME and return to their ancestral homes. As if it were so easy.
He expects the Jews to do that but would not contenance the same for himself. Just asking him to put his money where his mouth is. I did not make such an outlandish claim so I do not have to justify his assertion.

An evasion is an actual response to a question, so that’s an improvement. Even if it based on a straw man.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts?

Calling it a straw man doesn't make it so--he knows it's false! It was never meant to be believed, but rather was a disproof by counterexample. Your options are limited to showing his example is reasonable (obviously, you can't), showing how his counterexample does not match up with the original, or admitting the original is wrong. Instead, you derail.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nobody is forcing Hamas to use civilians are human shields or refugee camps as launching pads for rockets. Nor is Hamas doing anything to prevent criminal gangs from attacking aid convoys. My money is on that those criminal gangs are also Hamas. Or possibly Islamic Jihad. Which is same same.

Hamas has created the humanitarian disaster.

Disagree. It's not "nobody", it's Iran.

 

[laughing dog]

[

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Misdirection, again.

Tigers! isn't arguing for that position, he's reframing it to make it obvious that it's not an answer.

Please stop with your slanderous accusdations. I showed that his reframing it is not an answer either.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A reminder to all the Hamas apologists in this thread... Hamas are still holding hostages.

A reminder to all the exaggerating-to-the-point-of-lying types in this thread... there are no Hamas apologists in this thread.

I admire your persistence, but it hopeless. Any disinterested reader will immediately recognize the “Hamas apologists” for the slander it is. Any disinterested reader will immediately recognize generalizations such as “the Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves” as senseless bigotry. Posts containing such phrases only appeal to likeminded people.

Lol... yeah... keep defending Hamas.

No one has been defending Hamas. You either imagined it, or you deliberately misinterpreted what people have been saying.

This is a case of actions speaking louder than words.

Nobody here is openly defending Hamas. Many on here are falling for the human shield tactics and thus indirectly supporting Hamas. By blaming Israel when human shields die you are part of the Hamas weapon. If the world would quit blaming Israel for human shield deaths then Hamas wouldn't be using human shields and we would see a situation like with Hezbollah where ~90% of the deaths are combatants.

If the Hamas data is reasonably accurate (I don't think it is!) there have been ~25k civilian deaths. If the war had been like it was against Hezbollah there would be ~2k civilian deaths. Thus the attempts to hobble Israel have resulted in about ~20k civilian deaths.

Also, you keep substituting terms as though 'Hamas', 'Gazan', Palestinian', and 'Islamist' are interchangable when they're not. It's like saying all Jews beat women who refuse to sit in the back of the bus and throw stones at kids walking to school. It's exaggerated, extremist, excluded middle fallacy bullshit.

"Hamas" is a subset of "Islamist", they are not interchangeable but referring to a group by it's superset isn't wrong. And Hamas is the only government the Palestinians have, once again in some situations it's not wrong to substitute them.

And there is no middle to be excluded--they have been killed by Hamas.

You do that. Enjoy the feeling of supporting genocide and terrorism. It's not slander. It's just the truth.

Why is it bigotry? If something has been tried repeatedly, but doesn't work.

What has been tried? Be specific. Cite sources that support your claims about the 'what' and when it was tried. Are you talking about something Ben Gurion did at Israel's founding? Was it something the Sharett Administration did? Did it happen when Meir and Sadat worked out a plan for the Sinai peninsula? Was it something you would call just and fair if it was done to you? What are you talking about?

He's clearly referring to peace agreements. The Islamists always break them--they don't even believe in such agreements other than as a ruse.

Again and again the world tells Israel to play nice. And pretty soon they're hit again by some branch of the Islamists.

I've seen this before--"if you quit antagonizing [your bully] you won't get beaten up." It never works, but those in power never want to actually deal with the bully.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't. I really don't confuse them. I just dislike the habit of blaming everything on Hamas, as if the Palestinian people have no responsibility in allowing them to take control in Gaza. They sold their country to Iran in exchange for cheap trinkets. They should have seen it coming. Which I think they did. Islam has an extremely unhealthy martyr culture. Which I think is at the core of why the Palestinians allowed this to happen. But they did! People should be held accountable for their actions. It's good that Israel is doing that.

Disagree. They weren't given a choice. Some sold out their country for personal wealth and power.

 

[ZiprHead]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse

Exactly. The propaganda keeps focusing on how many "died" (quotes as there are a lot of problem with the data), completely ignoring how that compares to expectations.

What makes their propaganda differant than your propaganda?

You've been asked this before but all we get are crickets. What are you comparing the expectations to? Where are the numbers you keep claiming is Israel is doing better than?

 

[Arctish]

This disagreement over the future of Gaza is about what happens after Hamas has been defeated militarily and removed from political power.

Can you please tell us how this enchanted state of affairs will be achieved?

I have been telling you, Tigers!

You aren't listening.

There is no point in repeating the same things over and over again if all you're going to do is ignore it and then claim I never posted it.

Just go back to the guy who was beating you and be a good girl, everything will be fine.

Stop lying about my posts, Loren.

 

[Arctish]

Here's another option.

Israel's Muslim neighbors, particularly the Palestinians, decide that they would prefer cooperation, prosperity, and peace. Instead of conflict, poverty, and war.

Given the history of the centuries, the last 70+ years in particular, it will probably take a generation or two before the Israelis believe in the change. But the most current assault (Oct 7, 2023) probably added another generation.
Tom

Okay, let's go with that.

What treaty or set of accords do you propose for both the Palestinians and the Israelis to adopt to settle their dispute? What are the general terms, how are they different from previous agreements that failed to result in peace, and how will they be implemented and enforced?

You're the one who thinks it can be resolved by talking, you're asking him to provide your solution.

He's not proposing negotiation, he's proposing that the Palestinians quit poking the porcupine.

And you're making the fundamental error of thinking the Palestinians can negotiate. Your location says "Alaska", think Alaska could make a treaty with Russia?

And stop trying to bury other people's points in your own bullshit. TomC has some thoughts on peace between warring peoples in the Middle East. Get out of the way and let him post them.

BTW, you have an extensive backlog of requests for links to information that support claims you have made. Are you ever going to get to that, or are you just going to keep posting unsupported assertions, bullshit, and long discredited propaganda?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And it's not like Gaza is unique. All of the Middle East is full of these martyr armies that keep destabilising them leading to dictatorship. Whose fault and responsibility is that, if not the people who live there? Colonialism died over half a century ago. We can't just keep blaming white people and give the Muslims a free pass to behave like they do. Its not cool. It's also racism. I think brown people are fully capable of being responsible adults who can take responsibility for their actions. Don’t you think we should treat them as such?

We should treat them as such.

We should stop trying to dictate the terms of their lives and allow them the same Rights and degree of self determination we expect for ourselves.

If they want to crown a king, that's their business. If they refuse to bow down to the king the British picked out for them, that's also their business. If they want to be Communists, Socialists, Anarcho-syndicalists, Tribalists, Humanists, Atheists, confederated independent libertarian democratic Republicans, then that's their business, too. However they want to run their lives and organize their societies is up to them, not you, to decide.

You can have your own opinion about their choices but you have no Right to impose your choices on them.

They can do what they like in their borders. The problem comes from putting Islamists in power that attack other countries.

Discrimination against Christians and Muslims in Israel and the Occupied Territories is an on-going issue.

A very long article. HRW, so I don't trust it, but that's irrelevant. Note that it lumps Israel and the occupied territories--thus any discrimination by the Palestinians gets blamed on Israel. A search turns up exactly one hit for "Christian":

Although widely known as Jesus’ hometown and home to a key church in the Christian tradition, authorities historically invested little in Nazareth’s tourism infrastructure and, as a result, the city benefited little from the flocks of religious tourists that visit.

However, I definitely agree there is discrimination against Christians but it's in the Palestinian areas. Trying to look up the situation I find Wikipedia is worse than usual crap, wildly conflicting demographic information within the same page.

Life is certainly more peaceful for Muslim Palestinians inside Israel's borders than in the West Bank or Gaza, but let's be real here. Israel was founded and built on the principals of favoring one particular religious/ethnic group over all others. It is not possible for it to treat all people equally.

Pretty much it is possible. Israel was founded on being a place of safety for the Jews. That doesn't mean they exclude others.

The Gaza-Israel Wall predates the suicide attacks by more than 20 years.

No. What you are referring to as predating the suicide attacks is a fence, not a wall. The wall was built because fences only keep out the honest man. The wall was built to stop the infiltration and to stop small arms fire.

 

[Arctish]

And here we are back to practical matters. Who will provide the force to return the hostages? You have made it abundant clear that you do not want/wish Israel to do so.

When did I do that?

Please be specific.

Link to those posts and quote me.

There's nothing to quote because it's a negative.

Now you're getting it.

It never happened, therefore Tigers! will be unable to prove it happened, therefore (hopefully) Tigers! will realize that he reached a mistaken conclusion and will reassess.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then I don't see why you are arguing against me? They chose a king and that king attacked Israel and now it's shit for them. Actions and consequences. Israel did not deserve this. You keep ignoring just how extreme the 7/10 attack was. It was barbaric to a degree we haven't seen in generations.

Apparently you have not seen videos of what cartels do to captured members of other cartels or anyone that crosses them. Barbarism has never left our world culture the way you seem to think it has.

But the cartel violence is against those who cross them, it is not directed at the population at large.

 

[ZiprHead]

Then I don't see why you are arguing against me? They chose a king and that king attacked Israel and now it's shit for them. Actions and consequences. Israel did not deserve this. You keep ignoring just how extreme the 7/10 attack was. It was barbaric to a degree we haven't seen in generations.

Apparently you have not seen videos of what cartels do to captured members of other cartels or anyone that crosses them. Barbarism has never left our world culture the way you seem to think it has.

But the cartel violence is against those who cross them, it is not directed at the population at large.

Irrelevant to my point.

And the cartels do prey on the population at large. Forcing children to join their gang where refusal will be death of the family is not uncommon. I suspect HAMAS does the same.

 

[Arctish]

What has been tried? Be specific. Cite sources that support your claims about the 'what' and when it was tried. Are you talking about something Ben Gurion did at Israel's founding? Was it something the Sharett Administration did? Did it happen when Meir and Sadat worked out a plan for the Sinai peninsula? Was it something you would call just and fair if it was done to you? What are you talking about?

He's clearly referring to peace agreements.

Which peace agreements?

Be specific.

List them.

The Islamists always break them--they don't even believe in such agreements other than as a ruse.

Once you have provided the list of agreements, we can look into the history and see when/how they were broken.

Again and again the world tells Israel to play nice. And pretty soon they're hit again by some branch of the Islamists.

I've seen this before--"if you quit antagonizing [your bully] you won't get beaten up." It never works, but those in power never want to actually deal with the bully.

So, you agree Israel isn't playing nice?

Who is the bully in your metaphor?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I support the ones necessary to combat Hamas militants and prevent further terrorist attacks, to destroy weapon caches, to prevent more weapons from reaching Hamas fighters, etc.

I do not support flagrant violations of human rights and/or war crimes.

When Israeli forces are doing the first and avoiding the second, then that's still pretty dire for civilians caught in the conflict but IMO the shooting, bombing, and killing is a necessary evil, because not meeting force with force would further empower terrorists.

When Israeli forces are doing the first and not trying to avoid the second, that's not something I find acceptable. They can do better and IMO they should.

You are simply asserting this without demonstrating it at all.

When Israeli forces are committing flagrant violations of human rights and posters here are defending it or hand waving it away, that's fucked up. And when those same posters try to shame the defenders of human rights with name calling and horseshit accusations, that IMO is morally bankrupt excluded middle Ad Hominem propagandistic hogwash.

The problem is the claims of flagrant violations are very lacking in support.

Did you not read the reports of the targeting system being used by the IDF or how the IDF authorized bombing buildings full of civilians if a suspected foot soldier was inside, and the killing of up to 100 civilians if the target was suspected of being high rank?

That's not being super careful. That's flagrant disregard for civilians in the vicinity of a strike.

The actual numbers show they were being very careful. That article is willfully turning a blind eye on the facts.

They only strike targets of attacked by Hamas soldiers. I appreciate the extreme difficulty fighting an enemy, doing their utmost to appear as civiliansin in, a densely populated area. At this point, condemning Israel is to play right in to the Hamas propaganda machine. If you do that still, I'm going to call you a Hamas apologist.

It is difficult to fight militants/soldiers in a populated area and/or urban environment. That does not justify wanton sprays of bullets or bombing buildings in which civilians are taking refuge, or destroying every single medical facility where wounded civilians might receive care, or cutting off food and water deliveries, or any of the other actions that violate the Geneva Conventions or international laws.

First, the "destroyed" medical facilities generally remain operational. And you still do not recognize that you're rewarding human shield tactics.

And who is cutting off food and water? Hamas is taking the food and a lot of it simply sits at the border because they only count what actually gets delivered, thus providing propaganda for Gaza. Enough food is entering, but it's not reaching the people.

Also, please try to remember that criticizing the policies of the government under Netanyahu or the current Rules of Engagement for the IDF in Gaza isn't a condemnation of Israel. It is a condemnation of policies and rules.

Seriously, are you of the opinion that Israel can do no wrong? If you are, well, that certainly explains a lot.

We do not think Israel can do no wrong. We are saying that given the situation they are doing an exemplary job. And most of the claims of Israeli misdeeds turn out not to be so. If Israeli misdeeds are so prevalent why does the propaganda keep coming up with things that don't hold water? Peddling a pile of shit only makes sense if shit is all you have.

The Palestinians did not choose to have Palestine divided by the British and the UN so that more than half of it could be "given" to approximately 30% of the population, most of whom were recent European immigrants, many of them illegal to boot.

1) We can't undo history.

2) That number is quite deceptive as much of what was given to the Jews was basically empty desert. As partitioned it was giving areas to the side that had the most people in the area, but with border smoothing so there were no enclaves or exclaves.

They did not choose to be murdered by Zionist terrorists and have their land and homes stolen. They did not choose to be forced into refugee camps and ghettos like Gaza.

Then blame the Arab countries that did so.

They did not choose to have Israel dictate how much water they receive, what foodstuffs they could import, how many donated school supplies their schools could bring in, when or if they could travel, etc.

It's a very dry area, everybody needs to be careful with water. But they would prefer to use pipe for rockets than for fixing the leaky stuff or for making wells. Per capita water supply is pretty close to parity, per capita water use is very lopsided because so much of the Palestinian water is wasted.

And there has never been a period where there were limits on what foodstuffs were imported. There was a period where Israel was not permitting imports by Hamas or the companies it controlled. I'm not aware of what you are talking about with school supplies but Israel insists on inspecting all shipments for weapons, they don't limit things which are neither weapons nor dual-use. This has often been used for propaganda purposes, claiming Israel was forbidding the import when really they were just insisting on inspecting it.

Discrimination against Christians and Muslims in Israel and the Occupied Territories is an on-going issue.

Stop posting irrelevant propaganda.

It's not irrelevant when it's a direct response to what you wrote. It's not propaganda when it's a truthful, factual account that avoids exaggeration or appeals to emotion.

Your article mentions "Christians" only once, in the context of funding of tourism.