Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse

Exactly. The propaganda keeps focusing on how many "died" (quotes as there are a lot of problem with the data), completely ignoring how that compares to expectations.

What makes their propaganda differant than your propaganda?

You've been asked this before but all we get are crickets. What are you comparing the expectations to? Where are the numbers you keep claiming is Israel is doing better than?

You shot yourself in the foot before on this by presenting an argument that actually admitted what I was saying. But since that doesn't seem to be enough:

Urban Warfare | Center for Civilians in Conflict

civiliansinconflict.org

Quelle surprise, no numbers.

Want to try again??

First paragraph, second sentence. I didn't bother to quote because it's right there at the start and it is giving the number I already gave.

 

[laughing dog]

The main problem is that Hamas have made it as hard as possible for Israel to avoid hitting civilians. With that in mind Israel is doing an excellent job. It could have been a lot worse for the Palestinians. A lot worse

Exactly. The propaganda keeps focusing on how many "died" (quotes as there are a lot of problem with the data), completely ignoring how that compares to expectations.

What makes their propaganda differant than your propaganda?

You've been asked this before but all we get are crickets. What are you comparing the expectations to? Where are the numbers you keep claiming is Israel is doing better than?

You shot yourself in the foot before on this by presenting an argument that actually admitted what I was saying. But since that doesn't seem to be enough:

Urban Warfare | Center for Civilians in Conflict

civiliansinconflict.org

Quelle surprise, no numbers.

Want to try again??

First paragraph, second sentence. I didn't bother to quote because it's right there at the start and it is giving the number I already gave.

That 90 percent has no context and no source. For example, which wars were used to come up with that number?

 

[laughing dog]

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

Please stop with that bigoted nonsense. Yes there are places where it would be dangerous, but there are plenty of Arabic and Muslim countries where it isn't.

And that's supposed to be relevant how?

It shows your claim is nonsense

You're not addressing my point at all. Many of them came from lands where they would be killed if they returned (not that they would even be allowed in, it's mostly the descendants who never were citizens of the country their parents came from), you aren't distinguishing which ones would be safe.

"Go home" doesn't mean to any Muslim land, it means to the country they came from. They're in Israel because they were driven out, why in the world do you think it would be safe for them to return?

Verify your claim that the only basis for Jews from Arabic lands in Isreal is that they were driven out.

Once again, off target.

I never claimed every Jew who was made to "go home" would die, only that many would. Genocide doesn't require complete extermination.

I didn’t say every Jew. Stop evading and provide evidence to support your claim of fact.

Doesn't have to be every Jew. The direction is being given to every Jew in Israel--for the majority it's death. Doesn't matter if it's not every Jew, that's still genocide.

The 1st sentence in these quotes is an unsourced claim of fact by you. Still no evidence to support it - plenty of your opinion snd evasion, but no evidence.

 

[laughing dog]

Saying "wrong" without anything to back it up isn't a response. If it's false show what's false.

That is ridiculous. Of course it is a response.

 

[Bomb#20]

People have many reasons for holding anti-Israeli double standards; it's not usually because Israelis are Jewish. Do you have any evidence that she wouldn't be making exactly the same arguments if ninety years ago Palestine had been colonized by Swedish Protestants instead of by Russian Jews?

Racists rarely think they are racists. Most racists are convinced like they're just seeing the world objectively. They will zero in on details not ethnically specific and bring those into focus. But there is a pattern.

When it comes to Israel the racism is so extreme. This latest war has made it very clear.

Granted that USA's support for Israel has made hatred against USA to be mixed with hatred for Jews. And it can be hard to tease our which is which. Its still an irrational hatred.

I'm convinced westerners hatred for Israel is based on antisemitism. While Arabs and Persian hatred for Israel is not antisemitism. They conflate Israel with western colonialism. They see Jews as western colonial settlers living on stolen land. It’s as stupid as antisemitism. Nationalistic simplistic nonsense. But it's not antisemitism.

I don't understand your reasoning. If Arabs and Persians can hate Israelis for being alleged colonial settlers rather than for being Jewish, why would you assume westerners can't hate them for the same reason? Heck, Arabs and Persians probably learned anticolonial ideology from westerners in the first place. Local anti-Israel bias, western anti-Israel bias, and your assumption that the local bias and the western bias have to be two different things -- all three of them look to me like cases of anti-western bias. Nobody but Serbs ever seem to accuse the Kosovars of being colonial settlers, even though they too took over a country that had belonged to somebody else after their illegal immigrant ancestors flooded in. Because of their respective religions, Serbs are apparently classified as western and Albanians are classified as nonwestern, which made stealing the country okay.

BTW, Sweden used to be a European super power. Swedish museums is full of stuff we stole from other European nations. We did occupy land around Europe setting up Swedish enclaves and setting up Swedes as colonial overlords. So we don't need to use our imagination. We know how that would på out.

Yep. Before Voldemort studied Napoleon's attack on Russia and thought he'd identified the mistakes, Napoleon studied Charles XII's attack on Russia and thought he'd identified the mistakes. History rhymes.

If it was Swedes instead of Jews she would probably be saying the same thing.

Exactly. To my mind that clears her of the antisemitism charge. If it's racism it's anti-white racism; if it's religious prejudice it's anti Judeo-Christian prejudice; if it's cultural prejudice it's antiwesternism. Nationalistic simplistic nonsense, but not antisemitism.

The difference being that she would have been correct in her assessment.

I don't understand your reasoning. What has she assessed about Israelis that you think is wrong that you think would be correct if Israelis were ethnic Swedes?

If what you mean is that Israelis would be colonial settlers because Israel would have been set up as an act of colonization by the Swedish government rather than on the illegal immigrants' own initiative, I can't see how that makes any difference when we're talking about the great-grandchildren of the original settlers. Nobody gets to pick his great-grandparents.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

How in the heck is there going to be terror money if a deal with the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, and the west funding the rebuilding of Gaza. You think any of them will tolerate their money to rebuild structures that'll be pounded back down by Israel in retaliation for the latest Iranian funded assault on Israel? Having the Arabs help fund, in large part, the reconstruction would be enough of a self-reinforcing block to terror funding in Gaza.

Your problem is, you aren't good at solving real problems and using diplomacy to entrap those into positions they wouldn't have otherwise taken.

Summer child!

Europe has already been funding stuff whose purpose is to be destroyed for PR purposes. They do things like build "schools" on land they don't own and with no local need and basically just a shell.

And Iran would be happy to pound to rubble anything that Saudi Arabia funded.

I'm talking to a wall here.

Because I won't believe your fantasies?

You realize Iran and Saudi Arabia are in a proxy war? If Saudi Arabia built something that would provide more incentive for Iran (and the Iranian puppets like Hamas) to destroy it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm talking to a wall here.

Because I won't believe your fantasies?

You realize Iran and Saudi Arabia are in a proxy war?

I'm saying what needs to happen for the violence to end, or at least be reduced to a remotely acceptable amount of suffering. And that involves both Iran and Saudi Arabia and the Emirates. I'm not saying that it will be easy.

If Saudi Arabia built something that would provide more incentive for Iran (and the Iranian puppets like Hamas) to destroy it.

This is why Iran needs to be involved as well. But we can't do that because of the despots in charge there. Which is why we needed to slow burn a democratic uprising. But you supported Trump's fucking that up because you lack vision of down the road. Instead you support the status quo in Israel, which I find unacceptable for the Israeli people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still don't get it--Gaza is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is the terror money. You keep trying to treat the symptom and pretend that will fix the problem.

How in the heck is there going to be terror money if a deal with the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, and the west funding the rebuilding of Gaza. You think any of them will tolerate their money to rebuild structures that'll be pounded back down by Israel in retaliation for the latest Iranian funded assault on Israel? Having the Arabs help fund, in large part, the reconstruction would be enough of a self-reinforcing block to terror funding in Gaza.

Your problem is, you aren't good at solving real problems and using diplomacy to entrap those into positions they wouldn't have otherwise taken.

Summer child!

Europe has already been funding stuff whose purpose is to be destroyed for PR purposes. They do things like build "schools" on land they don't own and with no local need and basically just a shell.

And Iran would be happy to pound to rubble anything that Saudi Arabia funded.

I'm talking to a wall here.

Yeah.

The school Loren is talking about (why the scare quotes, Loren?) was donated by the EU and set up in a Palestinian village outside of Israel. Israel stole the buildings and sold them off.

Loren says people donate humanitarian aid to Palestinians so that Israelis will look bad when they steal it. Of course, that argument hinges on the presumption that Israelis will steal donated humanitarian aid, but apparently he doesn't think that's an anti-Semitic slur because he's Bullshitting for Israel

How about some honesty?

I'm not talking about anyone stealing anything. I'm talking about the EU funding buildings on land they know the Palestinians don't own. It's being done entirely for propaganda purposes.

Or should I be allowed to come and build a house on your property??

And I used quotes because it wasn't ever going to be a functioning school. Note your source!

Middle East Monitor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's financed by the state of Qatar. In other words, another terrorist mouthpiece. It's got to be bad for Wikipedia to admit it right up top.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has intensified bombing and attacks in Gaza in advance of the coming cease fire. Cause as much destuction as possible before the agreement kicks in.

Hanas has turned a large proportion of civilian houses into military installations. So it makes sense

And Everest is a mountain.

Nearly every building rigged: Hamas shifts tactics as north Gaza falls to IDF

Hamas terrorists are struggling to move within Jabalya, Beit Lahia, and Beit Hanoun due to the IDF’s aggressive operations in these areas.

www.jpost.com

booby-trapping almost every structure that remains standing

And Israel has captured some of the cameras showing them doing it:

IDF releases Hamas video of operatives setting booby traps in Gaza buildings

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

(In many cases they are command-detonated charges so there are cameras monitoring to see if anyone is there.)

If Hamas cared about the civilian population they would keep military infrastructure away from civilian. But that's not how Hanas rolls

Nah, they're not letting the people return because of all the booby traps. It wouldn't look good for a whole bunch of people to get blown up when they can't blame Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has intensified bombing and attacks in Gaza in advance of the coming cease fire. Cause as much destuction as possible before the agreement kicks in.

Hanas has turned a large proportion of civilian houses into military installations. So it makes sense

If Hamas cared about the civilian population they would keep military infrastructure away from civilian. But that's not how Hanas rolls

You forgot to link to the evidence that supports ^this^ claim.

Try a newspaper. I don't see how you can think his claim is the least bit controversial.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has intensified bombing and attacks in Gaza in advance of the coming cease fire. Cause as much destuction as possible before the agreement kicks in.

Hanas has turned a large proportion of civilian houses into military installations. So it makes sense

If Hamas cared about the civilian population they would keep military infrastructure away from civilian. But that's not how Hanas rolls

You forgot to link to the evidence that supports ^this^ claim.

How's life in your hermetically sealed media bubble? This information is not hard to find

Gaza: Israel deliberately militarizes civilian objects, turns schools into military bases [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 1 May 2024 by Euro-Med Monitor

reliefweb.int

Check your sources!!!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has intensified bombing and attacks in Gaza in advance of the coming cease fire. Cause as much destuction as possible before the agreement kicks in.

Hanas has turned a large proportion of civilian houses into military installations. So it makes sense
If Hamas cared about the civilian population they would keep military infrastructure away from civilian. But that's not how Hanas rolls

30 or so hostages who are never going to be the same, who have been traumatized in ways we can't understand, have their release being put in jeopardy so Netanyahu can bomb a couple more houses? Supposing the targets are 100% Hamas, no collateral damage, it isn't worth it at this point, unless there is viable intel indicating an immediate and hostile threat to Israel.

1) Hamas has not been honoring their end of the deal.

2) You are acting as if it's over. No, even if the deal is honored (and since there's can-kicking involved it won't be) that just means a period of peace before Hamas attacks again.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel has intensified bombing and attacks in Gaza in advance of the coming cease fire. Cause as much destuction as possible before the agreement kicks in.

Hanas has turned a large proportion of civilian houses into military installations. So it makes sense
If Hamas cared about the civilian population they would keep military infrastructure away from civilian. But that's not how Hanas rolls

30 or so hostages who are never going to be the same, who have been traumatized in ways we can't understand, have their release being put in jeopardy so Netanyahu can bomb a couple more houses? Supposing the targets are 100% Hamas, no collateral damage, it isn't worth it at this point, unless there is viable intel indicating an immediate and hostile threat to Israel.

1) Hamas has not been honoring their end of the deal.

You don't say.

2) You are acting as if it's over.

Please, stop replying to my posts if you aren't going to read them. It is very rude. As I noted, regarding this "deal", the only good part of it is the hostage release part... and only a part of that is good, as all of the hostages aren't being released. The remainder of the deal is a blank piece of paper, that could have been agreed to six months ago.

 

[laughing dog]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

 

[TomC]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

Key phrase there is "for now".

Israel has been pressured into negotiations with terrorists and rewarding their war crimes. History suggests that it won't end well.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

Key phrase there is "for now".

Israel has been pressured into negotiations with terrorists and rewarding their war crimes. History suggests that it won't end well.
Tom

Nothing in the future about the course of history is certain - "for now" and hope for a better future is all we ever have.

 

[TomC]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

Key phrase there is "for now".

Israel has been pressured into negotiations with terrorists and rewarding their war crimes. History suggests that it won't end well.
Tom

Nothing in the future about the course of history is certain - "for now" and hope for a better future is all we ever have.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

Israel has intensified bombing and attacks in Gaza in advance of the coming cease fire. Cause as much destuction as possible before the agreement kicks in.

Hanas has turned a large proportion of civilian houses into military installations. So it makes sense
If Hamas cared about the civilian population they would keep military infrastructure away from civilian. But that's not how Hanas rolls

30 or so hostages who are never going to be the same, who have been traumatized in ways we can't understand, have their release being put in jeopardy so Netanyahu can bomb a couple more houses? Supposing the targets are 100% Hamas, no collateral damage, it isn't worth it at this point, unless there is viable intel indicating an immediate and hostile threat to Israel.

1) Hamas has not been honoring their end of the deal.

You don't say.

2) You are acting as if it's over.

Please, stop replying to my posts if you aren't going to read them. It is very rude. As I noted, regarding this "deal", the only good part of it is the hostage release part... and only a part of that is good, as all of the hostages aren't being released. The remainder of the deal is a blank piece of paper, that could have been agreed to six months ago.

Six months ago was before the election. I don't think that Neta wanted to deliver a political win to Biden.

 

[laughing dog]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

Key phrase there is "for now".

Israel has been pressured into negotiations with terrorists and rewarding their war crimes. History suggests that it won't end well.
Tom

Nothing in the future about the course of history is certain - "for now" and hope for a better future is all we ever have.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Tom

The unintended irony of that reply is heartwarming.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

Yeah, but only three?! This hostage release process is worse than water torture it is so slow.

The cease fire is holding at this writing and 3 hostages have been released. Respite from violence and the return of some hostages is good news for now.

Key phrase there is "for now".

Israel has been pressured into negotiations with terrorists and rewarding their war crimes. History suggests that it won't end well.
Tom

How many more days should the hostages have to suffer captivity over the likeliness of a future Hamas attack? Had the hostages been released six months ago, Hamas would attack again. If the hostages were released a year from now, Hamas would attack again.

Without any global leadership regarding the Hamas issue, a Hamas attack is certain. So with this certainty in hand, why are the hostages being allowed to remain in captivity? It isn't to save lives, it isn't to prevent attacks.